Cat and Jon, part whatever

[Fragile Bird]

Hello! First post, so I'm sorry if all of this has been said too much already on the forum :)

I never really understood why everyone blames Catlyn for how she treated Jon. He was a constant reminder of her husband's infedility, a wife cannot be expected to love her husband's bastard as much as she loves her own children. I think the fault lies with Ned, though. Assuming that R+L=J, Ned should have told Catlyn. She wouldn't have resented him then, probably.

Welcome to Westeros Zenobia Lannister, first post!

Now, see how nice it was for someone to call you by name? Imagine posting here for 14 years without anyone ever saying hello to you. :devil:

[The Sleeper]

Cat ignored Jon for the most part, begrudged him for besting Robb, for looking like Ned, for eating too much some time, and other useless quibbles. That must have impacted on Jon's self-esteem and we see it in GOT how terrified he was of being in the same room than Cat. She was intimidating without trying and his distance to Jon reflected a lot of her own self-doubts. Does Ned love me or was it just an alliance? Why is the bastard having the same affection and upbringing than my trueborn sons? Jon was motherless (and without a mother figure) and seeing a mother dote on his children who are your half-brothers and ignoring you royally must have pinched his heart even though he knew his station and apprehended her reasons. It's not so easy to be rational and logical, as many posters from both points of view, seems to imply.

Ned was responsible for that mess. It was a promise but many paid the cost for it.

Spot on.

[a free shadow]

Welcome to Westeros Zenobia Lannister, first post!

Now, see how nice it was for someone to call you by name? Imagine posting here for 14 years without anyone ever saying hello to you. :devil:

Bird, did you get an answer from the people you said are using opposing arguments for their cause in different threads? Can not find it.

[Dr. Pepper]

It is because of the dehumanising argument.

If Catelyn was dehumanising Jon and this was effective and influential we would expect to see a dehumanised Jon snow, grinding his teeth, full of hate - a second Gregor Cleglane. We don't see that.

I don't see any sign in Jon's character that he has had any negative effects from Catelyn treatment of him. Don't forget Catelyn is irrelevent to his bastard status. That is going to effect him whereever he goes and whatever he does in Westeros.

It is because of the dehumanising argument.

If Catelyn was dehumanising Jon and this was effective and influential we would expect to see a dehumanised Jon snow, grinding his teeth, full of hate - a second Gregor Cleglane. We don't see that.

I don't see any sign in Jon's character that he has had any negative effects from Catelyn treatment of him. Don't forget Catelyn is irrelevent to his bastard status. That is going to effect him whereever he goes and whatever he does in Westeros.

Dehumanizing might be a poor choice of word. The basic of the argument is that Cat was very deliberate in not saying his name and remaining cold and aloof towards Jon as a personal/emotional protection method, both for her, her children, and Jon himself.

[Fragile Bird]

Bird, did you get an answer from the people you said are using opposing arguments for their cause in different threads? Can not find it.

I think a couple of pages from the end, LS fluffed it off. And Lummel, who I dearly love for his well written posts ( :kiss: ) has not responded, or perhaps not noticed.

[deleted01]

Hello! First post, so I'm sorry if all of this has been said too much already on the forum :)

I never really understood why everyone blames Catlyn for how she treated Jon. He was a constant reminder of her husband's infedility, a wife cannot be expected to love her husband's bastard as much as she loves her own children. I think the fault lies with Ned, though. Assuming that R+L=J, Ned should have told Catlyn. She wouldn't have resented him then, probably.

Welcome!

I don't think anyone has claimed that Catelyn should have loved Jon as much as her own children, I don't think anyone has actually claimed that she should have loved him at all. My points are that I would have expected her to accept him, or at least his presence, and not make things so difficult for him.

I agree that Ned should take the blame for all that happened, even if R+L=J, but perhaps less so. Going on the basis that Jon is Neds' son, he didn't handle the situation very well. As a new wife, Catelyn might very well have been frightened or intimidated by Ned telling her to 'never speak of it again', when she confronted him about Jon and who his mother was. But after years of marriage, which turned into a loving, happy relationship, I would have expected her to broach the subject again, after having more time to get to know her husband, and know that he wouldn't hurt her.

Welcome to Westeros Zenobia Lannister, first post!

Now, see how nice it was for someone to call you by name? Imagine posting here for 14 years without anyone ever saying hello to you. :devil:

:lmao:

Cruel Birdie, cruel :rofl:

[Sansa in the North]

Come on, it's not like evryone in Winterfell ignored Jon! Robb and he were playmates. Catelyn ignored him, yes, but she had the least reason to like him.

[Sansa in the North]

"My points are that I would have expected her to accept him, or at least his presence, and not make things so difficult for him." - I agree with this!

Even if Jon was Ned's son I think he still should have told Cat about his mother thou, and Jon, too :)

[birdsong66]

People are going to put the burden on Cat for the fact that she's the elder between the two. I'd also give a pass to the 14 year old child in that situation for not resenting the parent that does care about him and does show him love, yes there's a bigger picture and I've written my own thoughts on Ned in this situation. I'm just using parent as a term to refer to the two major authority figures in Winterfell.

See, this is where I have a problem? Because why, if only for age, should anyone be held accountable for than actions more than another? Does the situation damage anyone any less because one is younger or older than the other? Are the effects more or less relevant if one is 14 or 35? Could we not also say that Jon should have known better because he is a bastard inasmuch as we could say Catelyn should have known better because she is 35?

Must we throw ageism* into the mix, as well?

*this is sarcasm, before anyone gets their respective knickers in a twist...

And, I disagree that Catelyn is a major authority figure for Jon....Winterfell certainly. With herchildren, yes absolutely. But, as it relates to Jon, Ned is clearly the only authority figure that carries any weight absolutely.

@Bloodymime: I'm not suggesting that you believe Catelyn is to blame because of her age, or Jon is less to blame because of his age. I'm just addressing your post representing the overall belief that because Catelyn is the adult, she bears the weight for most of the blame.

Geez, but this particular subject gets so god damned sticky...

ETA: edited to un-quote my own quote because that's simply not cricket, darling

[Lyanna Stark]

Again, putting words into my mouth. I never said 'automatically', and I never said 'love'. I said that I find it baffling that she even had the strength to keep it up. I believe she did it as a slight to Ned, but if the kid is perfectly nice, and your children love him as if they were full siblings, wouldn't that soften your heart just a bit, after so many years? I'm not saying that she should have automatically loved Jon simply because Ned commanded her to STFU about him living there. I'm just saying that wouldn't she have gotten used to it, to Jon being there, mingling with her children, her husband and her servants?

Cat obviously had a lot of fortitude to not back down, and clearly, she felt strongly enough about it not to relent, meaning it was extremely important to her.

You want Cat to give in, to relent, to be altruistic, to be soft, but she is none of those things. It's not automatic to be altruistic and a Virgin Mary type person just because you are a woman. Neither does it make you an automatically bad person not to love a child. Ned could have stepped in at any time to ease her pain and embarrassment, but chooses to do nothing.

Jon is also still a threat to her children and a constant reminder of a failed part of her marriage. The Tully words are Family, Duty, Honour and Jon's existence defiled all of those.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think a couple of pages from the end, LS fluffed it off. And Lummel, who I dearly love for his well written posts ( :kiss: ) has not responded, or perhaps not noticed.

Excuse me?? What? Would you care to tell me what I have "fluffed off" please? Is this another one of "oh you are persecuting me across different threads" bollocks again? It might surprise some people, but I don't actually read *all* the threads on this forum, nor do I remember what everyone posts, at all times.

That includes you or anyone else who feels I have somehow given them undue attention.

[a free shadow]

I think a couple of pages from the end, LS fluffed it off. And Lummel, who I dearly love for his well written posts ( :kiss: ) has not responded, or perhaps not noticed.

Can not find it, hrm.

Andd Lummel is a boy? :wacko:

[deleted01]

Cat obviously had a lot of fortitude to not back down, and clearly, she felt strongly enough about it not to relent, meaning it was extremely important to her.

You want Cat to give in, to relent, to be altruistic, to be soft, but she is none of those things. It's not automatic to be altruistic and a Virgin Mary type person just because you are a woman. Neither does it make you an automatically bad person not to love a child. Ned could have stepped in at any time to ease her pain and embarrassment, but chooses to do nothing.

Jon is also still a threat to her children and a constant reminder of a failed part of her marriage. The Tully words are Family, Duty, Honour and Jon's existence defiled all of those.

This has nothing to do with her being a woman. After 14 years, I would expect a man to change his attitude as well. If anything, you're not giving men the credit most of them deserve; these traits aren't reserved for women, they're reserved for good people who make good decisions. As for not loving a child making you a bad person, again, I didn't say that - you keep saying 'love', but I've never said that. I just said she made some bad decisions in the way she treated Jon. Also, while not loving a child does not automatically make you a bad person, are you saying that a good person tends to behave this way against a child who did nothing wrong?

I didn't say I want her to be 'altruistic' either, because I never said that she should show concern or love for Jon, just that she didn't need to continue to make him feel like he wasn't wanted, guilty for being born and imposing upon her, and so on.

Jon's existence defiled them - through the fault of Ned, not Jon. As an adult, I would expect her to have come to realise this and moved on from it, especially once it was clear that Jon wasn't going anywhere, and that he actually wasn't a threat to her children, who all came to love him.

[Fragile Bird]

Excuse me?? What? Would you care to tell me what I have "fluffed off" please? Is this another one of "oh you are persecuting me across different threads" bollocks again? It might surprise some people, but I don't actually read *all* the threads on this forum, nor do I remember what everyone posts, at all times.

:rofl: :rofl:

Oh my dear, don't take offence! We are all being too sensitive.

I did a post, do you remember, my first one in the thread, where I drew attention to you and Lummel and said I see you guys all the time telling us we need to read the books with our own RL-time eyes and sensibilities? And so where does all this "but that is not the way it is in Westeros, is it" stuff come from. I'm not saying Cat needs to love Jon or treat him as a son, but she could be courteous. And for heaven's sake, she doesn't ever use his name, ever? Except to be nasty when he's leaving for the wall? Man, Roose and the knife, in her own way. She should take lessons from Sansa, Sansa was taught well.

I didn't go back and reread your post in the last thread to answer A free Shadow, but it wasn't much of an answer. As I recall.

Oh well, as long as I'm here (I have to go take the snow tires off my car, I gotta go, lol!) you don't have to like children to call them by their name. And Ran said, she didn't interact with the servants either. Bah humbug. She probably knew cooks and grooms and servants and a helluva lot a people by first name at Winterfell. That's what well loved lords and ladies are like. Considerate. Her treatment of Jon is a message to Ned. I've given the silent treatment to people for a week or two, 14 years has gotta be a record.

ETA: and by the way, I am not a Cat hater.

[bloodymime]

See, this is where I have a problem? Because why, if only for age, should anyone be held accountable for than actions more than another? Does the situation damage anyone any less because one is younger or older than the other? Are the effects more or less relevant if one is 14 or 35? Could we not also say that Jon should have known better because he is a bastard inasmuch as we could say Catelyn should have known better because she is 35?

Must we throw ageism* into the mix, as well?

*this is sarcasm, before anyone gets their respective knickers in a twist...

And, I disagree that Catelyn is a major authority figure for Jon....Winterfell certainly. With herchildren, yes absolutely. But, as it relates to Jon, Ned is clearly the only authority figure that carries any weight absolutely.

@Bloodymime: I'm not suggesting that you believe Catelyn is to blame because of her age, or Jon is less to blame because of his age. I'm just addressing your post representing the overall belief that because Catelyn is the adult, she bears the weight for most of the blame.

Geez, but this particular subject gets so god damned sticky...

ETA: edited to un-quote my own quote because that's simply not cricket, darling

I know, so much of this is just what we expect out of people. People expect the elder to be the bigger person, people expect the mother to be able to look past everything and be kind no matter what. Why do we expect a person to like another person forced upon them. Sometimes it simply can't happen. Everyone's been forced into situations where they're just expected to get along with someone they dislike. How does that work out? Woud it work for fourteen years with all the implications of this situation.

I would say Jon recognizes Cat as one of the two ulitmate authority figures in Winterfell even if it's just as an absence. He spends his days and nights with his own brothers and sisters that do get to see both of their parents united in their love for them, it's natural for him to wonder 'why not me?'. Jon would feel that absence and he would be more forgiving of the one that did actually show him love and kindness no matter how much Ned might be at fault for putting Jon in the situation. That's just human nature and there are not many children that would do differently. Note I'm not just talking of an authority figure as someone telling him what to do or not do but as a symbol of security and that's important to a child knowing they have someone to turn to. Jon does get to share in everything else the Stark children do except that one thing.

It is sticky and it is easy to feel for Jon. He's not just a bastard he's a motherless bastard and he doesn't even get the luxury of not knowing what he's missing because he has to spend every day watching Bran, Sansa, Robb, Rickon and Arya being loved and cared for by both mother and father and he's always outside of that circle. I'm not blind to that emotional need especially of a child for a mother's love. Yes he has his siblings and Ned's love. But that's not a mother's love. Everyone knows the difference and if you had a mother's love as a child you are grateful for it even if you don't always realize it and if you did not have a mother's love you feel that loss every day of your life.

[Lyanna Stark]

:rofl: :rofl:

Oh my dear, don't take offence! We are all being too sensitive.

Yes because I was the one who is using derogatory slang. :rolleyes:

I did a post, do you remember, my first one in the thread, where I drew attention to you and Lummel and said I see you guys all the time telling us we need to read the books with our own RL-time eyes and sensibilities? And so where does all this "but that is not the way it is in Westeros, is it" stuff come from.

I'm not sure what this has to do with how Cat acts and whether or not it's reasonable? I think it is reasonable (albeit not nice, soft or altruistic, as I have pointed out again and again) and that she has a valid reason for feeling as she does. I also don't believe she hated or loathed Jon, but that she was cold and distant. I think her lashing out at him was very wrong, but I don't fault her for her general treatment of him outside that episode, given the society and context she was in and the way she was brought up.

Other people claim her reactions are not reasonable and are in fact indefensible, which I believe is your position.

I do not assume that Cat needs to have modern sensibilities, if that is what you ask. In fact, I have argued exactly the opposite, just like I argue that people should assume that Sansa, or any other character should act in a modern fashion. That would be wrong for the setting.

In fact, I often take the position that there are too many female characters outside the norm of Westerosi society, making them too modern.

Regarding your post, I can't recall reading it. I guess it just didn't make enough of an impression. Hopefully you feel you have got your answer now, at least.

[brashcandy]

Jon is also still a threat to her children and a constant reminder of a failed part of her marriage. The Tully words are Family, Duty, Honour and Jon's existence defiled all of those.

How so? :) I mean, he's family, Ned believes he has a duty towards him, and when did it become honourable to resent innocent children because you're angry/jealous/bitter over what their father did? Jon should not be a reminder of what her husband did. Jon should be an example to Cat of someone else who like her did not ask to live with the tense, uncomfortable situation. But instead of working to alleviate it, as an adult, she perpetuates it. My entire problem with this staunch defence of Cat's actions is that it misses the larger theme that Martin seems to be developing in the series, which is that it's wrong to judge others over ridiculous things like birthright and legitimacy. Yes, god forbid the laws of inheritance be tampered with, but ultimately what's shown is that instead of worrying about trueborn sons and the like, it's a lot more advisable to concern oneself with the values, morals and principles that a child is growing up with. And forgive me if I don't give a fig about the Tully words when they represent a man who used both his daughters as pawns, and forced one to abort her baby. If Jon's existence defiled those words then it must prove they weren't worth much in the first place.

[jarl the climber]

Yes because I was the one who is using derogatory slang. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what this has to do with how Cat acts and whether or not it's reasonable? I think it is reasonable (albeit not nice, soft or altruistic, as I have pointed out again and again) and that she has a valid reason for feeling as she does. I also don't believe she hated or loathed Jon, but that she was cold and distant. I think her lashing out at him was very wrong, but I don't fault her for her general treatment of him outside that episode, given the society and context she was in and the way she was brought up.

Other people claim her reactions are not reasonable and are in fact indefensible, which I believe is your position.

I do not assume that Cat needs to have modern sensibilities, if that is what you ask. In fact, I have argued exactly the opposite, just like I argue that people should assume that Sansa, or any other character should act in a modern fashion. That would be wrong for the setting.

In fact, I often take the position that there are too many female characters outside the norm of Westerosi society, making them too modern.

Regarding your post, I can't recall reading it. I guess it just didn't make enough of an impression. Hopefully you feel you have got your answer now, at least.

The English as opposed to the americans have had female queens and leaders for hundreds of years, You had Elizabeth and Mary who were queens, I know Marys Mom was spanish, I'm not sure if Isabella was her Mother, who had been a prominent Queen 30 or 40 years earlier. Joan of Arc was running around a few years before that but you can find many instances of women acting outside of their place in a mideval history. I think there might have been a Pope who was secretly female.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

It is because of the dehumanising argument.

If Catelyn was dehumanising Jon and this was effective and influential we would expect to see a dehumanised Jon snow, grinding his teeth, full of hate - a second Gregor Cleglane. We don't see that.

I don't see any sign in Jon's character that he has had any negative effects from Catelyn treatment of him. Don't forget Catelyn is irrelevent to his bastard status. That is going to effect him whereever he goes and whatever he does in Westeros.

He appears to be suffering from dysthymia, chronic depressive disorder, what some of y'all call being emo, I believe. I think growing up around a person or person who hates you could contribute to chronic depression. Dysthymia also has a genetic component, which makes it more likely that Jon is Rhaegar's son – although Ned isn't a barrel of laughs either, is he? Nevermind.

. . . She was intimidating without trying and his distance to Jon reflected a lot of her own self-doubts. Does Ned love me or was it just an alliance? . . .

Clearly she knew the answer to that question because she didn't love Ned,she married him only because his older brother was dead and tradition dictated that she marry the younger brother – and, no doubt, Hoster Tully wanted his contract fulfilled. I'm sure to him one Lord of Winterfell was much like another. Certainly, it's better than what Hoster did to Lysa.

I believe that Ned did love Ashara Dayne, and by honoring tradition and getting spears for the rebellion he abandoned the woman he loved to disgrace and dishonor. (Actually, I haven't decided whether Ashara's baby was Ned's or Brandon's, but I think Ned would have taken Ashara, Brandon's baby and all. It was still a Stark.) So when Cat asked about Ashara Dayne it was like she was probing a cavity and that's why he snapped at her. In a way her expectations of Ned's behavior were awfully high, they were practically strangers when they married. And evidently she knew little about Brandon's extracurricular activities; who knows how many other Stark "Snows" are wandering the hills? But this is all me writing my own backstory, and I digress . . .

As for "Family, Duty, Honor," – The Starks are her family now. Ned said "He is of my blood, that is all you need to know." Her husband's blood -- what do those stupid marriage vows say? flesh of my flesh? -- seems to me her duty would dictate that she treat Jon with the respect that the Stark blood deserves, and honor dictates that she rise above the mess. Not like it, but suck it up. But words are wind, are they not?

Plot wise, it makes sense that she remain totally in the dark about Jon's background. Practically, it seems to me that a woman who really wanted to know about another would be out there mining third-party sources. I'm pretty sure she could have dropped in on Howland Reed, or invited him over for tea. Just speculating.

ETA: Brashcandy beat me to it.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

As for "Family, Duty, Honor," – The Starks are her family now. Ned said "He is of my blood, that is all you need to know." Her husband's blood -- what do those stupid marriage vows say? flesh of my flesh? -- seems to me her duty would dictate that she treat Jon with the respect that the Stark blood deserves, and honor dictates that she rise above the mess. Not like it, but suck it up. But words are wind, are they not?

The Starks are her family. Jon is a Snow. Her honor and duty should accept Jon as a stepson. But the honor and duty of Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa and Robb is what conncerns Cat. Jon is a probable direct confrontation to Cat's family's happiness.