Crackpot Alert: Might Lem Be Richard Lonmouth?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This would be a confrontation I would LOVE to read...I hope it happens. If they start with a verbal spat, we may learn A LOT about the events between the tournament and the trident (or where ever Lonmouth's story ends).

I just noticed that... at least three people said Jon was a bit arrogant back then, specially towards R's friends. He also disliked Robert because he was a drunktard. Aaaaaaand... of course, Lonmouth was Robert's drinking buddy. How much wanna bet that Jon and Richard didn't get along at all?

Jaime should spend quite a bit of time on recognition when he runs into the Brotherhood Without Banners

"Hey, aren't you Richard Lonmouth....and aren't you the Master of Horse from Winterfell....and aren't you that Tyroshi captain of that sellsword company my father hired....and aren't you that weird Red Priest who would light his swords......and aren't you, AHHH, fuck, Catelyn Tully?!?!

"Hey, Kinslayer, how are you?"

"not good, not good... handless..."

"Hey, remember that time in King's Landing when we---"

(Stonehert): "Shut up, Stop it, this is a hanging...!"

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I just noticed that... at least three people said Jon was a bit arrogant back then, specially towards R's friends. He also disliked Robert because he was a drunktard. Aaaaaaand... of course, Lonmouth was Robert's drinking buddy. How much wanna bet that Jon and Richard didn't get along at all?

<snip>

Jon, trying to hold back tears "He was MY Prince, you drunken backstabbing usurper!". Slaps Lem with a stone hand.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon, trying to hold back tears "He was MY Prince, you drunken backstabbing usurper!". Slaps Lem with a stone hand.

Jon: You at least had a wife, and a child. I was stuck in a boat for 15 years!

Aegon: Erm... I'm here...

But really, I expect something more like this. Yep. He's the Peter for Jon's Sirius.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Jon: You at least had a wife, and a child. I was stuck in a boat for 15 years!

Aegon: Erm... I'm here...

But really, I expect something more like this. Yep. He's the Peter for Jon's Sirius.

I had to follow the link to even get that one!...(never watched Harry Potter or read the books shhh...don't tell)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I had to follow the link to even get that one!...(never watched Harry Potter or read the books shhh...don't tell)

heh. it's a joke, kinda. James Potter was Harry's dad. Sirius was H's godfather because he was James' bf, and was sent to a prison for a crime he did not commit. James died because another of his friends (Pettigrew) betrayed him. It's kinda of a joke because once was mentioned that Jon was the Pettigrew of the group, the one that followed the others around. But it doesn't look it's the case It's more like RiIchard would be the Pettigrew if he indeed betrayed Rhaegar. Pettigrew also spent 13 years disguised as a rat, as maybe Richard did (not as a rat, though). Sirius' imprisonment and return after many years is kinda like Jon's exile. Sirius later fought his cousin who killed him. I hope Ronnet doesn't end up killing Jon. Now, I'm obviously joking, it's just that it looks curious :P

But, jokes aside, I think it's more likely that Jon and Richard know a lot about Rhaegar but in a political aspect of his life, not about the prophecy or anything related. That's an aspect of Rhaegar that is barely discussed. Personally, I think the decision of taking Lyanna had nothing to do with whatever he was doing in the Riverlands, and it was a causality that he met her there, probably after R, Jon and Mooton were sent back to KL or somewhere else, hence, Jon not mentioning anything about Lyanna Stark.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

heh. it's a joke, kinda. James Potter was Harry's dad. Sirius was H's godfather because he was James' bf, and was sent to a prison for a crime he did not commit. James died because another of his friends (Pettigrew) betrayed him. It's kinda of a joke because once was mentioned that Jon was the Pettigrew of the group, the one that followed the others around. But it doesn't look it's the case It's more like RiIchard would be the Pettigrew if he indeed betrayed Rhaegar. Pettigrew also spent 13 years disguised as a rat, as maybe Richard did (not as a rat, though). Sirius' imprisonment and return after many years is kinda like Jon's exile. Sirius later fought his cousin who killed him. I hope Ronnet doesn't end up killing Jon. Now, I'm obviously joking, it's just that it looks curious :P

But, jokes aside, I think it's more likely that Jon and Richard know a lot about Rhaegar but in a political aspect of his life, not about the prophecy or anything related. That's an aspect of Rhaegar that is barely discussed. Personally, I think the decision of taking Lyanna had nothing to do with whatever he was doing in the Riverlands, and it was a causality that he met her there, probably after R, Jon and Mooton were sent back to KL or somewhere else, hence, Jon not mentioning anything about Lyanna Stark.

I certainly see how they correlate.

Once I had the thought that Rhaegar was seeking the Ghost of High Heart (Since I do think Rhaegar and GoHH crossed paths before, possibly at Summerhall) but that doesn't quite flow with the locations. HH is too far west and too close to Riverrun.

So hopefully in one of the confrontations, we will learn what the heck they were doing in the Riverlands.

I'm putting my Patchface deciphering aside for now. There are 3 I cannot translate and this Lonmouth mystery now has me intrigued.

Ronnet certainly does want to prove his loyalty. I wonder if the will be allowed to leave now that Kevan is dead? He was to remain in his chambers until they marched on JC...but now.

[yolkboy]

Not sure if this has been covered...

from the text we suspect Lem is a former soldier because he has the 'look of one'.

I was just reading the SoS appendix and ...

LEM, called LEM LEMONCLOAK, a one-time soldier,

So Lem is confirmed to be an ex-soldier hanging out in the Riverlands. What struck me is that this is the only piece of info the appendix gives about him.

[Hos the Hostage]

This is great!

I have wondered about the knight of skulls and kisses, and I have been curious about Lem's history, but only now did I come across this theory.

I'm totally convinced. Especially the Ghost's request for a kiss from Lem.

It doesn't matter if Lem does not acts like he has recognized Gendry. They were already starting to stick together in Storm of Swords(like old times?)

Lem and Gendry played tiles with their hosts that night, while Tom Sevenstrings sang a silly song about Big Belly Ben and the High Septon's goose. Anguy let Arya try his longbow, but no matter how hard she bit her lip she could not draw it.

Lem playing with a Baratheon, someone singing, and a Stark maid trying out weapons.

Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. "You want to fight, fight with me!"

Her real clothes were hanging from a peg on the wall, between Gendry's stuff and Lem's.

Arya sat up yawning. Gendry was stirring on her left and Lem Lemoncloak snoring loudly to her right, but the baying outside all but drowned him out.

Lem=Richard Lonmouth and Lem=Weasel's father are not mutually exclusive. Maybe he decided to lie low and have a normal life after supposedly losing everything.

Is it even possible that Lem could be one of the 'they' in the 'they found him holding Lyanna's body' in Ned's dream?

[Lord Wraith]

Well I am certainly sold on this theory. Excellent work.  I wonder if there could be some kind of connection between the Elder Brother and Lem.

 

"I am not in the habit of serving ale to children, but the cider's run out, there's no cows for milk, and the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?"

"Arry would," said Hot Pie. "I mean, Squab."

"So would Lem," offered Anguy with a sly smile.

Dead men drifting downstream reminds me a lot of the Elder Brother's story.  

I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

"Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. 

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well I am certainly sold on this theory. Excellent work.  I wonder if there could be some kind of connection between the Elder Brother and Lem.

 

"I am not in the habit of serving ale to children, but the cider's run out, there's no cows for milk, and the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?"

"Arry would," said Hot Pie. "I mean, Squab."

"So would Lem," offered Anguy with a sly smile.

Dead men drifting downstream reminds me a lot of the Elder Brother's story.  

I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

"Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. 

 

I definitely think there's a thematic link! I mention it in the expanded version of the theory here :)

[obsessed]

I need to download these things, beats the hell out of flipping through the pages trying to find random stuff. But yeah that sounds familiar.

 

Here's the solution to that problem (I can't believe you got this far on this great theory without it): asearchoficeandfire.com

[Lord Wraith]

 

I definitely think there's a thematic link! I mention it in the expanded version of the theory here  :)

 

Excellent I am reading it now. Also a huge fan of Radio Westeros. Keep up the great work.

[Zizoz]

I'm still working through it all since this a new theory to me. I agree that he will be of some importance because like it is stated throughout this thread...the story of the KotLT has major players throughout, and we know about them to an extend...nothing on Lonmouth...which is odd because even Griff was said to have drunk himself to death. Right? How long before he appeared was that stated?

 
 

Jaime mentions that in Feast, when he slaps Ronnet (LOL). Before that, Barristan tells Dany that Jon and Richard were Rhaegar's friends, in Storm. The same book in which Meera tells the Kotlt story, and mentions that Richard was Robert's drinking buddy.

Some pedantry, because I remembered a quote. In Tyrion I ACOK, we have this:

"Aerys Targaryen's last Hand was killed during the Sack of King's Landing, though I doubt he'd had time to settle into the Tower. He was only Hand for a fortnight. The one before him was burned to death. And before them came two others who died landless and penniless in exile, and counted themselves lucky. I believe my lord father was the last Hand to depart King's Landing with his name, properties, and parts all intact."

In Jaime II ASOS:

The horn-of-plenty Hand and the dancing griffins Hand had both been exiled

Connington is first named in Daenerys I ASOS, but not associated with griffins or the Handship. That happens in Arya V ASOS:

"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him."

(Red Ronnet is noted to have a griffin as his sigil in ACOK, but doesn't get a last name until the appendix of ASOS.)

Anyway, I like the theory. Will be quite happy if it turns out to be true.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 
 
Some pedantry, because I remembered a quote. In Tyrion I ACOK, we have this:

In Jaime II ASOS:

Connington is first named in Daenerys I ASOS, but not associated with griffins or the Handship. That happens in Arya V ASOS:

(Red Ronnet is noted to have a griffin as his sigil in ACOK, but doesn't get a last name until the appendix of ASOS.)

Anyway, I like the theory. Will be quite happy if it turns out to be true.

 

The fact that Jon was stripped from his lands and titles was already presented in aCoK, yep. Or I think Martin had a bit outlined. We know Red Ronnet fought Brienne and we later found out what it mean for her to kick his ass.

[Taenqyrhae]

Lem is Lonmouth, but Lonmouth is Rhaegar.  They pulled a switch like Ramsay and Reek did using the rubies for a glamour.  That's why he hates Lannisters and relates it to his dead wife and child.

[Bironic]

 

 

[spoiler] Here is the passage for reference:

 

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal . . . where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

I think this makes it sound like he was last seen on Dragonstone and had been absent from King's Landing for some time. Taking ship to Maidenpool might make sense as it would remove any chance of them passing through KL en route to the Riverlands. It's possible Lonmouth (and Mooton) may have been in a part of the group that broke away and was perhaps heading back to the vicinity of KL bearing messages. Two groups of four riders heading in opposite directions might explain why Brandon rode to KL, if he were perhaps in pursuit of the wrong group. Aerys' subsequent actions wrt the Starks may have prompted Lonmouth, who was apparently a supporter of "regime change", to ultimately side with Robert, bringing us full circle to that theme of "choice" :) [/spoiler]

 

I read the bold part as if Rhaegar didn't go directly from Dragonstone to the Riverlands, but ended up there. So were was he after he left DS and before he came back to the Riverlands? And what made him go back to the Riverlands.

I think he could have gone from DS to Griffin's roost or the seat of House Lonmouth, from there he travelled to Summerhall(he was known for going there) and then something happened that lead him back to the Riverlands.

[Lost Melnibonean]

"I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?”

“The wench is dead,” the woman hissed. “Only worms may kiss her now.”

Is an allusion to this...

FRIAR BARNARDINE. Thou hast committed--

BARABAS. Fornication: but that was in another country; And besides, the wench is dead.

The Jew of Malta

What is the significance of The woods witch's use of it here? Keep in mind that Petyr uses the line twice describing "Alayne's" mum. Petyr's use seems to be his character explaining away his indirect responsibility for Catelyn's death. 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

I forget, was Lem's speech discussed? He talks like a lowborn man, including, "M'lord."

[norwaywolf123]

On 28.12.2013 at 6:56 AM, Thrice Drowned Veteran said:

I like this. It certainly would be a heartwarming reunion if he ever meets Aegon or Daenerys.

 

why he has never met fAegon or Daenerys? I suppose by your logic Daenerys and Jaime will have a heartwarming reunion since Jaime knew her family before they died, sadly.

[Ser Leftwich]

12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I forget, was Lem's speech discussed? He talks like a lowborn man, including, "M'lord."

It was discussed, but I do not recall the consensus. IIRC, he speech was odd. Sometimes formal, sometimes "M'lord," sometimes, when stressed, he slips around. IIRC, the conclusion was it is possible he is faking a "M'lord" accent.