Is short fiction (in SFF) relevant?

[Kat]

This comes off Saturday night's Hugos, where a Mary Robinette Kowal (a short fiction writer) won the Campbell Award for Best New Writer, beating out several novelists who are well-liked here (Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, David Anthony Durham). I believe when I told Stego at our party, he said, "who??!" and then proclaimed (in typical Stego manner ;)) that short fiction was irrelevant.

So, [i]is[/i] it relevant? Do you read short fiction? In what form? Where do you get it? Who are your favorite authors? Etc. Discuss.


As for myself, I'm beginning to appreciate short fiction more and more. Long novels can be exhausting. Short stories, you can read one at bedtime, or on the train to work, and not have to remember what's going on later. I don't subscribe to any magazines, but I like listening to short story podcasts like [url="http://www.podcastle.org"]PodCastle[/url] and [url="http://www.escapepod.org"]EscapePod[/url], and buying short story collections. I sometimes forget I like short fiction, and then I go do something like read all the Hugo nominees and remember again.

[Ran]

Yes, it's relevant. Yes, I read it. Yes, Stego doesn't know what he's talking about. ;)

[cteresa]

Yes. if people prefer their multivolume 8000 page fantasies, fine for them. But short stories have been all along a crucial part of the history of sf. A lot of things which blew me away to learn to love sf have been short stories - arthur c clarke of course ( he has concepts in every single one! can´t say he can write, but ideas, oh yes), theodore sturgeon, ray bradbury, even asimov all have had extremely important short stories. It´s not even arguable.

Right now, I am not a fan of the surreal lyrical type of short stories which are popular with some gangs ( think Kelly Link) but I would rather read a new Ted Chiang short story over just about anybody s 800 page opus. And Connie Willis often ( not always) manages to put more science and ideas in her short stories than almost anybody. That GRRM guy is also not bad at short stories, I probably prefer his Tuf stories as comments on ecology and morality than any much longer more pompous sf series ( you will know which one I mean).

[Starkess]

Short stories are okay, but I like to get wrapped into a story. I like to get to know characters and places much better than I can in the space of a short story. But just because I personally don't enjoy it doesn't make it irrelevant. It definitely is difficult form of fiction to write (I think more difficult than a novel, which boils down to endurance in the long haul more than finesse), and short stories can expand the SFF community immensely.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Not irrelevant, but in an extremely tough space right now commercially and within the larger fan milieu (as in, those who would not go to a WorldCon). The current short fiction magazines are hemorrhaging readership, and most people just aren't going to sit down in front of a computer screen and read a story. Yes, readers can print stories out...but that is already a barrier to larger readership (for example, I do not have a printer at home).

I'm very much with Warren Ellis on this one -- short fiction is relevant, but the delivery system sucks nutsack. I can't remember the last time I was even interested in purchasing Asimov's or Locus (boring), or the last time I printed out a story from online.

In fact, the last short stories I've purchased were two anthologies by Nightshade books (love those guys), Pump Six by Paolo Bacigalupi (love this guy) and that collection by Margo Lanagan (love this woman). It's a real chicken-and-egg problem for those trying to break into the genre with their short fiction.

[Eponine]

Where are good places to get short stories online (not podcasts)? I don't mind reading online, but am not usually willing to search for short stories unless I know exactly what I'm looking for.

I like short stories a lot, but have trouble finding them and identifying which are worth buying. With full length books, it's easy to get reviews and opinions, but there are almost never reviews or any kind of real discussion for short stories.

[Leveller]

I'm going to back up the love for Paolo Bacigalupi. I think I first read him almost four years ago in F&SF: The Fluted Girl was the title. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he's the best writer of the current generation of SF folks. It's such a subjective statement that I'm pretty comfortable making it.

I don't know. I know plenty of folks who only read short, because it fits into their lifestyle. They don't get to read everyday, or only for maybe twenty minutes, and like to finish their fiction in one sitting. Plenty of folks only read long, for the nuance and arc of the narrative. So of course short fiction is relevant, it just depends on who you are. I don't think Charlie Stross would have a career without short fiction, or if he did it wouldn't be the career he has right now. William Gibson, too.

Anyway. Hugos are no measure for what's popular in the general market. Hugos measure Hugo voters. Please note that there were ~3500 attendees at the convention (which is light for a Worldcon) and the most popular award (Best Novel) only had 745 valid ballots. And those 745 include people who voted but did not attend. The Campbell award only had 365 ballots, and Joe Abercrombie only got 36 first place votes. Scott had 91, and David had fewer votes than the "No Award" category.

I'm just saying that I don't put a lot of faith in awards voting, or winning awards. I'm sure it's a nice perk, and I happen to know that MRK is a fine writer and a really wonderful person. But I don't get too twisted up one way or the other about the current awards system. This is an area my agent and I disagree on most stridently.

[Korr]

Short fiction is definitely still relevant, and it's not about to die out. It's in more of a recession than the rest of the fiction market because of its delivery system.

In my experience as a writer, the market for short fic has been moving away from mags and towards anthologies for some time now. Anthos are going to get more popular because they can offer the same sort of size (and therefore perceived value for money) as novels, and the same sort of editorial process, while still being easily portable. Magazines are growing ever more unpopular with audiences, and I can certainly understand why, since I don't like reading them myself. The style and quality of fiction are too variable from issue to issue. Plus they tend to carry a lot of ancillary bullshit that most readers are just not interested in.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Regards,
Ryan

[Leveller]

[quote name='Eponine R' post='1478585' date='Aug 13 2008, 13.47']Where are good places to get short stories online (not podcasts)? I don't mind reading online, but am not usually willing to search for short stories unless I know exactly what I'm looking for.

I like short stories a lot, but have trouble finding them and identifying which are worth buying. With full length books, it's easy to get reviews and opinions, but there are almost never reviews or any kind of real discussion for short stories.[/quote]

For reviews, may I recommend the Internet Review of Science Fiction (irosf.com) or Locus Magazine. I'll have trouble pointing you to an online story source without knowing what you like, but the common destinations are strangehorizons.com and baensuniverse.com. Anthologies are a great source, too. When you buy a magazine or an anthology, what you're really doing is buying the editor's opinion on fiction. Track the names of editors whose magazines or anthologies you've liked, and follow them. They have as much impact on the quality of fiction as the writers. I'm a big fan of Lou Anders (Sideways in Crime, Fast Forward I & II) and George Mann (okay, he's my editor) and sometimes Ellen Datlow. Lou is in the early stages of a Sword and Sorcery anthology that I'm pretty excited about.

[cteresa]

We are all talking of slightly different things - which is just fine, covering a lot of interesting questions and ground. and I feel the need to categorize, sorry, can not help myself

Can short stories be influential - oh yeah, surely. They have been in the past ( The Sound of Thunder for example. If All Men were Brothers would you let one marry your sister - maybe to blame for a few things on Heinlein, or is chronology wrong for that? To Serve Man.) I think they still are. A concrete example, Ted Chiang ( yes, I am a fangirl) wrote what is IMO a great short story called Liking What You See ( in his opinion not great, he claims it is imperfect work which he does not claim credit for. bah, what do authors know about their work anyway?), a story about the effect of physical beauty and its perception on judgment of other people. It seems to have inspired, with acknowledgment and permission, Scott Westerfeld to write a very popular bestsetlling YA series starting with Uglies ( IMO, that series is compltely shallow and missing the point and the short story is far far superior).

Can short stories lead to writers getting rich contracts and great careers and make a living? Ah, that probably not great contracts and make a living if only short stories, like in everything doing what you love does not necessarily lead to riches. But a career is not just about that,and arguably writing short stories can perfect skills and can lead to developing a readership. I picked up Ellen Klages novel after reading a short story of hers on one Firebird anthology. GRRM says that the sales of AGOT took off after the publication of Legends anthology. i do think writing short stories can lead to at least some name recognition, consider all the bitching about Kowal having won, I am now curious to actually read something of hers.

What is the market for short stories - magazines are truly unappealing IMO. When I buy one, often for a story from a "sacred" name of mine and I glance around, often the other stories are not made to sound appealing enough for me to actually try reading them. And it looks ugly. I actually downloaded some stories to read from Asimov site ( years ago, not sure they still have it) and read some stories freebie ( oh, Rhys Hughes, his books are practically impossible to find, but he publishes some freebies on the web now and then which are just so charming) But there are lots of anthologies, besides Year Best, for example Firebirds anthologies seem pretty successful to me and often anthologies with a theme and direction ( or where one story introduces canon to a specific universe) seem pretty popular. I also buy a lot of mono-author anthologies, when they get published.

[Calibandar]

I'm just going to throw out some writers as well as editors of short fiction that people who are interested in reading some good newer stuff could buy;

Writers:

Jeffrey Ford ( Empire of Ice-Cream, The Drowned Life collection upcoming, Fantasy Writer's assistant)
Ted Chiang ( mentioned already, do buy Stories of Your Life and others)
Paolo Bacigalupi ( he has a new collection out called Pump Six and other stories).
Glen Hirschberg ( The Two Sams; American Morons)
Joe Hill ( 20th Century Ghosts)

John Langan and Ken Scholes are two well-known short story writers who have a collection coming out each, in November.

Daryl Gregory is famous for some good shorts, but he also has a novel called Pandemonium coming out from Bantam in two weeks.

You could consider the Wastelands anthology, or an older antholgy with a similar theme edited by Walter Miller called Beyond Armageddon.

Stephen King's shorter work collected in "Night Shift" is excellent.

Joe Lansdale's "High Cotton" and "Mad Dog Summer" are good.

Gene Wolfe has a couple of very good collections. I recently bought "Strange Travelers".

Martin's "Dreamsongs" is up there with the very best.

Editors:

Jonathan Strahan ( Year's best SF and Fantasy collections)
Lou Anders ( Fast Forward)
Gardner Dozois

[Shryke]

What are the sales for short fiction is SFF like? What's the reading base like?

Personally, I don't know anyone who reads it who I don't know from this board. By personal experience, I'd say it's not all that relevant to the readers. Although it may be more so to the authors and such who are deep into the SFF .... "culture".

[cteresa]

Jeez, Calibandar, why am I not surprised at the gender ratio in your recs? *knocks head against wall* Ok, can be a coincidence, but a few more recs to balance things out a bit

Connie Willis - not new, but she surely has some great short stories

Kage Baker - not my absolute favorite but ok

Margo Lanagan - already mentioned

Kelly Link - not my thing, but surely as influential as some of those names mentioned. Pretty important for the current short story situation

Ellen Klages - what I have read of hers I loved

Patricia McKillip - she is totally understated, very feminine writer in the sense that women expect to read silence. Some of her short stories are pretty much incredible, though work at reading what is not explicitly said.

Elizabeth Bear - won a Hugo you know :P and has a short story anthology just out

Mary Robinette Kowal - no idea, but now I am indeed curious.

any more? of either gender please, I am not picky I am restricting myself to one gender on this post just to try to balance things out.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1478748' date='Aug 13 2008, 20.49']What are the sales for short fiction is SFF like? What's the reading base like?

Personally, I don't know anyone who reads it who I don't know from this board. By personal experience, I'd say it's not all that relevant to the readers. Although it may be more so to the authors and such who are deep into the SFF .... "culture".[/quote]

Only a publisher or bookseller can tell you. But on a pretty small market I do see Year´s Best anthologies for sale at fnac, and I do know people who read and buy short stories, I actually got one for Christmas. I know quite a few people who will surely buy an anthology for a given author´s short story ( say the Legends effect. Or people who will buy Firebirds for DWJ, or for a Samaria Story by Shinn, or say, ok, me with buying Legends on hardback for Dunk and Egg) and read the other short stories on the set. I actually like short story collections, if the paperback is small enough, to keep in my handbag to read during errands or in the subway.

[Kat]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1478759' date='Aug 13 2008, 12.55']Mary Robinette Kowal - no idea, but now I am indeed curious.[/quote]

She has links to her online stories [url="http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/online-fiction/"]here.[/url]

One older author whose short stories I like a lot is Patricia Highsmith, who is probably best known for The Talented Mr. Ripley, but her short stories are sort of...magical realism/horror. I read one of her collections and enjoyed it greatly.

[MattD]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1478759' date='Aug 13 2008, 15.55']any more? of either gender please, I am not picky I am restricting myself to one gender on this post just to try to balance things out.[/quote]
Theodora Goss and Alan De Niro are two writers who had collections published in the last few years that I really enjoyed; both have some selected stories linked from their websites if you want to try before you buy (ETA: and my review of the Goss collection is [url="http://www.fantasybookspot.com/node/1916"]here[/url]).

Peter S. Beagle and Ursula Le Guin have both released several fine collections of stories over the years, and Roger Zelazny's excellent collections -- which invariably include several award-winning stories -- were among my first SF&F reading.

I read a lot of these single-author collections (next up will probably be Sarah Monette's The Bone Key) as well as anthologies like Best American Fantasy and the various Year's Best volumes. I read a few fiction zines, but it's generally either a matter of me looking for a specific story I had heard about, or a story that catches my eye leafing through something like F&SF or Lady Churchill. Online, I regularly read Strange Horizons, Clarkesworld, the occasional story at Coyote Wild, etc. Several authors whose short fiction work I like haven't had collections published yet -- Catherynne Valente and Veronica Schanoes come to mind -- so I tend to hunt around for their work, and give the surrounding stories a try.

[url="http://thefix-online.com/"]The Fix[/url] is a site dedicated to reviewing SF&F short fiction (as [url="http://www.tangentonline.com/"]Tangent[/url] used to be); it might be a valuable resource for people looking to get a sense of what is available.

[Rexor]

Here's an informal survey for an idea I have been kicking around...

If there was a blog, updated weekly or bi-weekly (almost set-up like a webcomic), with short stories would you frequent it?

Would you prefer that the stories were related, unrelated, or all part of the same "novel"?

[cteresa]

[quote name='arizonahotrock' post='1478865' date='Aug 13 2008, 21.45']If there was a blog, updated weekly or bi-weekly (almost set-up like a webcomic), with short stories would you frequent it?[/quote]

Ah, well me probably not. It´s not that I find it a bad idea, the fault is with me: I don´t follow a lot of sf/f blogs, I don´t have the time, also usually my internet hunting for books is sort of on a different scheme, sometimes I get a book hoarding ( ordering) madness and hunt around for recommendations for a few days. or after reading something, or discussing something, I hunt around for discussion on a book or theme or something. Keeping an eye on these forums now and then even that sometimes I have no time and they are an old old vice.

Kat, thanks for the rec, will note it down. I read some of her novels ( though not the sf one which I tried but had to be one of the most appalling books I ever tried) and she is brilliant. A perhaps tangential rec is the once very popular short stories by Roald Dahl, no sf, but sort of horror meets mystery, I remember loving those.

Matts, thanks noted down! if older authors can count, I am very fond of John M Ford´s two collections. I loved some of Peter Beagle´s short stories I have read. I read one Theodora Goss short story in a Year´s Best (I think) but it did not hook me particularly, I hardly remember it unfortunately besides the author´s name. deNIro, thanks noted down.

[Calibandar]

[quote]Jeez, Calibandar, why am I not surprised at the gender ratio in your recs? *knocks head against wall* Ok, can be a coincidence[/quote]

Sorry, being politically correct is not my first instinct. I tend to think of what I find worthwhile and then recommend that, rather than go through a list of what I should do in order to be seen as a gender equal poster. You'll notice there are few ( if any?) black writers in the list as well, so that's even more demerits for me.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='arizonahotrock' post='1478865' date='Aug 13 2008, 21.45']Here's an informal survey for an idea I have been kicking around...

If there was a blog, updated weekly or bi-weekly (almost set-up like a webcomic), with short stories would you frequent it?

Would you prefer that the stories were related, unrelated, or all part of the same "novel"?[/quote]
I'd only frequent it if it were centred on related stories by an author I already knew. I'm one of those philistines who dislikes short stories (due to preferred focus on character progression through the breadth of a novel).


Calibandar - I don't think it's about political correctness, more about invalidation. As I said above, I don't read short stories. That doesn't mean I've not heard of, for instance, Ursula Le Guin's reputation as a short story writer.

Y'see - if more men included women in recs lists generally, women wouldn't be so cynical when seeing a particular example of a recs list that didn't include any. ;)