Heresy 25

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 25

If you’ve been here before it needs no introduction, but if you’re new or have simply been intimidated (or bemused) by the fact there are 24 earlier (and very fast moving) incarnations, its actually pretty straightforward – on the surface at least.

This time I’d like to start by quoting part of what GRRM said in his recent Barcelona interview:

…it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

The Heresies are legion, but what unites us is a very strong belief that the outcome assumed by so many readers; that Jon is really the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, and is destined to be recognised as Azor Ahai and ride a dragon to victory over the Others, is not going to happen.

ADwD opened a much greyer (if not darker) path for Jon and everything now points to his future being bound up with the North and Winter, perhaps as the King of Winter come again, rather than with the Iron Throne.

There are various story arcs being acted out in the Song of Ice and Fire, often intertwined, but here we try not always successfully to concentrate on the North, Jon’s story arc (“Oh, you think he’s dead do you?” – GRRM) and the true identity of the Others and the relationship GRRM has admitted them to have with those creepy Children in the darkness.

If you’ve been around the thread for a while, you’ll know what its about. If you’re new, don’t hesitate to ask and if you have the fortitude for it links to the previous chapters of the thread are given below.

Above all don’t be intimidated. Offer your opinions and theories and see what happens. One poster recently asked what we Heretics believe in and defend? The short answer to that one is that we believe that a lot of what we were told at the beginning is mince and that its not straightforward. There are one or two core heresies that the Starks are not as nice and cuddly as they might have appeared, but there’s no solid agreement on exactly what their relation is to the Faerie races, who built the Wall (and why) or the true origin of the Watch.

All we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with good humour and a respect for the opinions of others.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74304-heresy-23/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74991-heresy-24/

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I think we deserve a pin for this topic. You hear that R + L= J! We're coming for you!

[Melifeather]

I had mentioned before my theory that the Starks are the balancing power that kept winter from overtaking summer. Thus, "Kings of Winter". They didn't have to worry about summer taking over, at least until the Targaryens came.

The Starks are decendent from the First Men and had their own religion which they discarded in favor of the old gods of nature which were worshipped by the Children of the Forest. The Targaryens also had their own unnamed religion which they discarded in favor ot fhe Seven. And I suspect that they were originally worshippers of R'hllor.

Back when Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror, perhaps that was when the Targaryens discarded their unknown relgion? Does anyone know? It sounds like both Torrhen and Aegon cooperated in keeping a balance in check with regards to winter and summer.Furthermore, I had also pointed out that while Daenerys represented "fire", Jon seems to be "ice" and "fire" should R+L=J turn out to be true.

I realize that my theory isn't quite as "grey" for Jon as the Heresy thread would perhaps like, since they are leaning towards "Winter is Coming" as being a battle cry versus the more boy-scout-like "always prepared" sounding version that it seems to be presenting itself as. But, my theory still includes Jon as becoming King of Winter, and not Azor Ahai as the followers of R'hllor are looking for. I think Daenerys will be their Azor Ahai.

My final thought would be that the Last Hero is the person that helped rebalance Westeros after the Night's King allowed winter to gain dominance, and he/she shouldn't be grouped as being the same person as Azor Ahai.

[alienarea]

To continue from # 24 with a crackpot:

Assuming Mance is able to take off the ruby and it still works as a generator for a glamour. After sending out the Freys and the Manderleys Roose makes a beeline for the Dreadfort because he is not stupid. The spearwives fought to death and got themselves killed otherwise Ramsay eould have kept them for hunting. Ramsay flays their bodies because he is sick, but Mance overtakes him and puts Ramsay in the cage with the skins. Then Mance glamours himself as Ramsay.

Still working on details, but there are only two names in the letter: Mance and Ramsay. And the hostages being asked for make sense if Mance is Ramsay now.

[The Lord's Kiss]

To continue from # 24 with a crackpot:

Assuming Mance is able to take off the ruby and it still works as a generator for a glamour. After sending out the Freys and the Manderleys Roose makes a beeline for the Dreadfort because he is not stupid. The spearwives fought to death and got themselves killed otherwise Ramsay eould have kept them for hunting. Ramsay flays their bodies because he is sick, but Mance overtakes him and puts Ramsay in the cage with the skins. Then Mance glamours himself as Ramsay.

Still working on details, but there are only two names in the letter: Mance and Ramsay. And the hostages being asked for make sense if Mance is Ramsay now.

I think Mance would need another ruby for Ramsay to wear, or are you saying that they would both look like Ramsay?

[Black Crow]

I think we deserve a pin for this topic. You hear that R + L= J! We're coming for you!

We are certainly catching up, but the pin doesn't actually seem necessary as we're keeping it pretty close to the head of the board just through our own efforts.

:fencing:

[alienarea]

I think Mance would need another ruby for Ramsay to wear, or are you saying that they would both look like Ramsay?

If Mance ripped out Ramsay's tongue, stripped him nude, tied his hands and put him in a cage with the skins of the spearwives, no one might take a closer look, especially if Mance glsmours himsflf as Ramsay.

And Ramsay deserves some horror before being offed.

[Melifeather]

To continue from # 24 with a crackpot:

Assuming Mance is able to take off the ruby and it still works as a generator for a glamour. After sending out the Freys and the Manderleys Roose makes a beeline for the Dreadfort because he is not stupid. The spearwives fought to death and got themselves killed otherwise Ramsay eould have kept them for hunting. Ramsay flays their bodies because he is sick, but Mance overtakes him and puts Ramsay in the cage with the skins. Then Mance glamours himself as Ramsay.

Still working on details, but there are only two names in the letter: Mance and Ramsay. And the hostages being asked for make sense if Mance is Ramsay now.

I like this, and I'll try to help figure out a way for it to work! :lol:

Melisandre said that glamors are made more powerful by wearing something that belonged to the other person. If Mance overtook Ramsay somehow, he must have him tied up in the cage and gagged, AND covered with the cloak of skins. Then Mance must still have the glamor, but he's taken off the bones and is wearing something of Ramsay's.

Edited to add that I like @alienarea's idea about ripping Ramsay's tongue out!

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

So you think ramsay is in a cage glamoured as mance and most likely just shouting he is ramsay and not mance? That would just look crazy. Wouldn't anyone wonder why he is yelling he is the real ramsay bolton? They could put it off to madness but it would make for a complicated situation. When did mance learn to cast glamours and work magic? I get the bracelet connecting him to mel. But magic isn't an easy trick it takes a ton of concentration and technique to cast a proper glamour I don't think mance mastered r'hllor magic within that short amount of time.

Now as to the targ's worshipping r'hllor. Its possible but I thought they had a valyrian religion. R'hllor is a religion from asshai. Fire and blood is the epicenter of valyrian sorcery and the most powerful sorceries of the world. Besides the ice magic. I think the targ's were different than red priests. Their sigil is a red dragon. But I think we would know if they were worshippers of r'hllor before the seven. It would be fitting to their crazy fire obsession though

[Black Crow]

...My final thought would be that the Last Hero is the person that helped rebalance Westeros after the Night's King allowed winter to gain dominance, and he/she shouldn't be grouped as being the same person as Azor Ahai.

Much of what your suggesting isn't new to the world of heresy and there's always been a strong feeling when we've discussed it that Jon is more likely to be the one to restore the balance rather than be the champion of fire as Azor Ahai. How he'll do that remains to be seen. He's almost certainly going to have to slay the dragons rather than ride them, but given his ever closer association with Winter the question has to be whether he'll stand between Ice and Fire, holding them apart as it were, or whether having vanquished the Red Lot, he in turn will then need to be slain to prevent total victory by Ice.

On balance (sorry) I don't think the latter option will arise. The Last Hero belongs to the Long Night, and the theory is that the Children saved him from the pursuing White Walkers by giving him sanctuary rather than providing him with an army or anything else, but while under their protection a peace deal was patched up and a truce line established along what's now the Wall, not built by human hand but by magic, with the realm of Ice above and the realm of men below - in a degree of balance. Although not spelled out by GRRM this is consistent with what he's so far revealed and doesn't upset the popular view of life, the universe and Westeros.

Where Heresy does come into it is in that some of us think that the Nights King story may be much more recent than implied by the identification of him as the 13th Lord commander, and suggest that he's actually tied in with the breaking of the old Pact between the Children and First Men when the Andals came, and is why the Children didn't find refuge in the North but fled beyond the Wall, ie; the overthrow of the Nights King and the Night that Ended battle are one and the same, and that its the story of how Stark of Winterfell betrayed his brother and the Pact as the price of peace with the Andal kingdoms. Whether or not this is the case, there is a strong impression that the balance may originally have been upset not by Ice but by Fire, which is why the Faerie races are now an endangered species and why the Red Lot are talking in terms of finishing them off to bring about the Summer that never ends, rather than rallying round the flag to defeat an awful threat from up north that so far hasn't manifested itself.

OK, as readers we know that there's increased activity going on within the realm of Ice, but nobody else is aware of it.

[Melifeather]

So you think ramsay is in a cage glamoured as mance and most likely just shouting he is ramsay and not mance? That would just look crazy. Wouldn't anyone wonder why he is yelling he is the real ramsay bolton? They could put it off to madness but it would make for a complicated situation. When did mance learn to cast glamours and work magic? I get the bracelet connecting him to mel. But magic isn't no easy trick it takes a ton of concentration and technique to cast a proper glamour I don't think mance mastered r'hllor magic within that short amount of time.

Now as to the targ's worshipping r'hllor. Its possible but I thought they had a valyrian religion. R'hllor is a religion from asshai. Fire and blood is the epicenter of valyrian sorcery and the most powerful sorceries of the world. Besides the ice magic. I think the targ's were different than red priests. Their sigil is a red dragon. But I think we would know if they were worshippers of r'hllor before the seven. It would be fitting to their crazy fire obsession though

I think you missed alienarea's idea about Mance ripping out Ramsay's tongue, which I like this idea very much! LOL Seems fitting. Anyways....I think the power of the glamor is in the cuff with the ruby that Mel gave Mance to wear, but she said that the glamor is stronger if the person is also wearing something that belonged to the other person, like Rattleshirt's bones.

Theon described Abel's appearance to be more like Mance than Rattleshirt, who is a small man with a widow's peak. So, apparently Mance took the cuff off before arriving at Winterfell. Where's the cuff? Did he give it back to Mel? I don't think so. I think he had to keep it on until he was away from the Wall so that no one would see he was Mance. I was wondering if the spearwife that was playing his "old mother" was wearing the cuff and a dress? Anyways....if Mance were to overtake Ramsay, rip his tongue out (lol), and give him the cloak of skins to wear, which he probably would want if Mance took his clothes, then Mance could put the cuff back on and wear Ramsay's clothes. I think the power of glamor is in the cuff.

[Black Crow]

Now as to the targ's worshipping r'hllor. Its possible but I thought they had a valyrian religion. R'hllor is a religion from asshai. Fire and blood is the epicenter of valyrian sorcery and the most powerful sorceries of the world. Besides the ice magic. I think the targ's were different than red priests. Their sigil is a red dragon. But I think we would know if they were worshippers of r'hllor before the seven. It would be fitting to their crazy fire obsession though

It may be a different version of it, just as the Light of the Seven appears in some ways to be a toned down one; a bit like Catholics and Protestants both being Christians. It's certainly not the worship of R'hllor as practiced by the red priests because you'll recall that when Tyrion was in Volantis, the Red Priests there were denouncing the Valyrian hold-outs in the forbidden city.

[Melifeather]

Where Heresy does come into it is in that some of us think that the Nights King story may be much more recent than implied by the identification of him as the 13th Lord commander, and suggest that he's actually tied in with the breaking of the old Pact between the Children and First Men when the Andals came, and is why the Children didn't find refuge in the North but fled beyond the Wall, ie; the overthrow of the Nights King and the Night that Ended battle are one and the same, and that its the story of how Stark of Winterfell betrayed his brother and the Pact as the price of peace with the Andal kingdoms. Whether or not this is the case, there is a strong impression that the balance may originally have been upset not by Ice but by Fire, which is why the Faerie races are now an endangered species and why the Red Lot are talking in terms of finishing them off to bring about the Summer that never ends, rather than rallying round the flag to defeat an awful threat from up north that so far hasn't manifested itself.

I get most of what you were saying, but you lost me when you said that the Night's King was probably not the 13th Commander and that he betrayed his brother to make a peace with the Andals. This would imply that the Andals worship something akin to fire. Is that what you think? It makes more sense that the "fire" threat didn't come until the Targaryens.

I do think that the Last Hero was probably a Stark and that the Children of the Forest concealed him. This is probably how they received their ability to warg. But, it doesn't make sense that you say the Night's King's troubles came from the peace with Andals. It makes more sense that it came from the Others, since he married an Other.

Aren't the Mormont's Andals? There has got to be another story about how they treated with the Starks to gain a peace between the First Men and the Andals other than the betrayal by the Night's King. That doesn't make sense to me.

[fassreiter]

I think you missed alienarea's idea about Mance ripping out Ramsay's tongue, which I like this idea very much! LOL Seems fitting. Anyways....I think the power of the glamor is in the cuff with the ruby that Mel gave Mance to wear, but she said that the glamor is stronger if the person is also wearing something that belonged to the other person, like Rattleshirt's bones.

Theon described Abel's appearance to be more like Mance than Rattleshirt, who is a small man with a widow's peak. So, apparently Mance took the cuff off before arriving at Winterfell. Where's the cuff? Did he give it back to Mel? I don't think so. I think he had to keep it on until he was away from the Wall so that no one would see he was Mance. I was wondering if the spearwife that was playing his "old mother" was wearing the cuff and a dress? Anyways....if Mance were to overtake Ramsay, rip his tongue out (lol), and give him the cloak of skins to wear, which he probably would want if Mance took his clothes, then Mance could put the cuff back on and wear Ramsay's clothes. I think the power of glamor is in the cuff.

But there is a problem here. If there really is a cage, its only purpose is to present the King-beyond-the-Wall to the northern lords, as proof of Jon's lies. If Ramsay is in the cage, even if he can't talk, people would want to look at him. So if Ramsay is not glamoured, they would get the trick after two seconds. And if he is glamoured as Mance, Mance still looks like himself, so what does he gain by putting Ramsay in his position? By the way, why should Mance come up with the cage business in the first place? If he wrote the letter to Jon, he was never captured by Ramsay, so no one was put in a cage at all. And if he made it up out of thin air, why go through the trouble and put Ramsay in a cage? Why not just kill him?

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

No I saw the tongue theory. But the letter never stated that mance's tongue was ripped out. Which my have been excluded for a reason. Like how we never get a desscription on lemore's eyes. But I don't think its likely that they would rip out his tongue cause if they did then he couldn't answer questions. Of course it fits that mance doesn't want him answering questions. But if he is pretending to be ramsay wouldn't ramsay want him to answer his questions. I was thinking maybe there is another spell involved preventing ramsay from speaking about his true identity. There are several possibilities I suppose. I bet we are all wrong though lol george even said for the thousands of theories that come out of these forums about one in every thousand is right. That's the problem we always find things that make it improbable. But that's why its important to disect the theories so we can fit the matching parts together. The bracelet could help mance. But I still don't see him being capable of casting glamour's cause that was the importance of mel's POV chapter to show the trouble she has with magic and the effort she puts into her mummer magic let alone her real glamours. But I won't discolose any of these ideas cause a lot of the aspects seem very possible. I'm sure if mance has outsmarted ramsay and co then magic may have been involved and played a very important role.

[Melifeather]

But there is a problem here. If there really is a cage, its only purpose is to present the King-beyond-the-Wall to the northern lords, as proof of Jon's lies. If Ramsay is in the cage, even if he can't talk, people would want to look at him. So if Ramsay is not glamoured, they would get the trick after two seconds. And if he is glamoured as Mance, Mance still looks like himself, so what does he gain by putting Ramsay in his position? By the way, why should Mance come up with the cage business in the first place? If he wrote the letter to Jon, he was never captured by Ramsay, so no one was put in a cage at all. And if he made it up out of thin air, why go through the trouble and put Ramsay in a cage? Why not just kill him?

If one part of the letter is true, it doesn't mean the rest of the letter is true. I think parts of it are true, parts of it are false, and parts of it are a coded message.

I think the spearwives are indeed dead. In ADWD we read about the deaths of some of them. I think Mance somehow eluded capture, and a way for him to do that is to overtake Ramsay. But he still is alone and needs to protect himself, especially if the battle with Stannis isn't over yet. The part about "Mance" being in a cage with a cloak on is probably true, but I don't think its Mance, and it may not even be Ramsay. It could be Ramsay, but it doesn't have to be Ramsay. If Mance is wearing somebody elses clothes, that person would wrap that cloak about themselves. And Melisandre said that people see what they expect to see. They expect to see Mance in the cage.

[The Lord's Kiss]

No I saw the tongue theory. But the letter never stated that mance's tongue was ripped out. Which my have been excluded for a reason. Like how we never get a desscription on lemore's eyes. But I don't think its likely that they would rip out his tongue cause if they did then he couldn't answer questions. Of course it fits that mance doesn't want him answering questions. But if he is pretending to be ramsay wouldn't ramsay want him to answer his questions. I was thinking maybe there is another spell involved preventing ramsay from speaking about his true identity. There are several possibilities I suppose. I bet we are all wrong though lol george even said for the thousands of theories that come out of these forums about one in every thousand is right. That's the problem we always find things that make it improbable. But that's why its important to disect the theories so we can fit the matching parts together. The bracelet could help mance. But I still don't see him being capable of casting glamour's cause that was the importance of mel's POV chapter to show the trouble she has with magic and the effort she puts into her mummer magic let alone her real glamours. But I won't discolose any of these ideas cause a lot of the aspects seem very possible. I'm sure if mance has outsmarted ramsay and co then magic may have been involved and played a very important role.

Yeah, I agree, the hardest part about believing this theory is the fact that Mel herself explained in her POV how difficult it had been to glamour Mance and Rattleshirt. I doubt that the gem in the bracelet has a generator that would enable Mance to use it at will on whomever he wanted, as long as he had something that belonged to them. Mel would probably have to be there to cast some type of spell, and it would definitely take a huge toll on her. I think she would be aware if Mance took the bracelet off in the first place, right?

[Little Wing]

Okay, how is it that Mance can do glamors? That's Mel's thing, and maybe she could have shown him, but I don't think that would be enough, even with him having the ruby. Not to mention how complicated all this is, even for GRRM :laugh: I'm almost sold on Mance writing the letter, but all this glamor stuff... idk, seems unlikely.

[redriver]

But there is a problem here. If there really is a cage, its only purpose is to present the King-beyond-the-Wall to the northern lords, as proof of Jon's lies. If Ramsay is in the cage, even if he can't talk, people would want to look at him. So if Ramsay is not glamoured, they would get the trick after two seconds. And if he is glamoured as Mance, Mance still looks like himself, so what does he gain by putting Ramsay in his position? By the way, why should Mance come up with the cage business in the first place? If he wrote the letter to Jon, he was never captured by Ramsay, so no one was put in a cage at all. And if he made it up out of thin air, why go through the trouble and put Ramsay in a cage? Why not just kill him?

The whole cage thing is another clue that Mance is behind this.Nowhere have we seen the Boltons using cages.

But we have seen one at the Wall.The one in which "Mance" is burned,watched by Jon,Mel,Mance and Stannis "for all the world to see."

I think that Alien's theory is suggesting that Mance is glamoring Ramsay to hide his own identity and to hold the Winterfell pretense together until Stannis arrives.

I love the theory and I hope it's true,but.......