[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

So was Alys rivers a red priestess?

[Julian Rayne]

Sunfyre, because one of my alts is a Balance Druid.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So was Alys rivers a red priestess?

I think that she was a seer and for some strange reasons she reminded me of the GoHH. No idea why, maybe because they are both from Riverlands :dunno: .

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think that she was a seer and for some strange reasons she reminded me of the GoHH. No idea why, maybe because they are both from Riverlands :dunno: .

Yea she also reminded me of the GoHH, also this could prove that Rhollor is fake if she saw through flames without being a worshipper of Rholllor.

[RumHam]

So was Alys rivers a red priestess?

I don't think so. She seems to have been born in The Riverlands, and the Red God is only starting to gain ground in Westeros at the start of the main series 170 years later. Also the fires are one of a few places Aemond claims she saw visions of Daemon.

Also as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it could all be bullshit as she herself was almost certainly the source for that story.

[Grrrod]

Sunfyre he sounded pretty

Apart from its last scene :/

[Gertrude]

Possibly stupid question, what is a dragon's "crest?"

Also I'm confused about the "wingbones of pearl." Dragonbone is supposed to be black from it's high iron content right? and these wingbones are...visible somehow?

The crest is the bony ridge along the dragon's head and neck. This drawing shows bony protrusions on the back of the head that I would call a crest.

As to the wingbones, I assumed it meant the skin and scales covering the wingbones, not that the bones themselves were visible. Kind of like how Siamese cats are cream with dark 'points' (ears, feet, etc).

[Lord Varys]

The hairy bear,

I'm not sure about the Black Grand Maester idea. The title seems to be granted only by the Citadel, and if Orwyle was really a secret Black then Rhaenyra most likely would not have tried to alienate him by replacing him with somebody else. Grand Maester Gerardys surely would have wanted to keep his new post later on, thus causing trouble. And I seem to remember that the name of the maester of Dragonstone is mentioned when he tries to send off ravens when Aegon's forces take the castle.

Finally it would be odd for Rhaenyra to keep her 'Grand Maester' at Dragonstone while she was ruling in KL.

RumHum,

I'm just speculating. For my scenario it would the most sense if the Greens did not really believe that Orwyle was in in the plot, but threw him in the dungeon either way. He was then replaced by Gerardys - perhaps because the Hightowers forced the Citadel to choose a new GM at once - who eventually is fed to Sunfyre. In truth I think Orwyle is the best candidate for being Daemon's man on the Green Council. Rhaenyra and Daemon execute Ser Otto and Ironrod. Ser Tyland is given to the torturers (surely he would have told them where the gold was if he was a secret Black). And Criston Cole is not a very likely option, if you ask me. Orwyle is the only candidate who makes sense if Gyldayn is right that Daemon had a man on the Green Council. And if it was Orwyle that very fact would explain why another maester did not reveal this fact in his history.

I guess you are right on Syrax. I'm pretty sure that whatever Swann could have done before dying would not have wounded Syrax so much as to diminish her abilities to fly. But I guess it could make sense to assume that Glydayn omitted a whole part of the war where Rhaenyra (and perhaps Daemon, Nettles, and others with them) flew to the Stormlands for a show of force to prevent Lord Borros from doing anything foolish. It's odd that he would bestir himself for one and a half year after marrying one of his daughters to Aemond! And he was the great lord closest to KL, thus Rhaenyra should have been very determined to prevent him from teaming up with the Hightower army. I could see Ser Beyron being among a group of Stormlords declaring for Rhaenyra only to try to get close to Syrax to kill her. This could also explain why Munkun would believe that this was Vhagar - I don't think he would have made that mistake if Syrax was in KL at this time and Vhagar obviously with Aemond in the Riverlands. But if both Syrax and Vhagar were in the Stormlands during the war it could make sense.

On the last dragons:

They have to have hatched in the late 140s or early 150s, and the last may have lived nearly as long as Aegon III himself. Ser Arlan 'is closer to sixty than to fifty' when he dies in 209, and he has seen the last dragon a year before her death. I can't see how Ser Arlan could have remembered the last dragon if he had seen her as a babe in 150 or so. He must have been at least 4-6 years old at the time her saw her. And to assume that Ser Arlan was born in 150 is also quite a stretch. Closer to sixty than to fifty could mean 56-57 as well as 58-59.

But it's quite clear that the two misshaped dragon skulls Tyrion sees cannot be Shrykos and Morghul. Simply because they are not among the last dragons to live and die. And nothing indicates that they were misshapen or small. In fact, they could have been larger than Dany's dragons in ADwD considering that they may have hatched when Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were still 2-3. Which would make them 4-5 years old when they are killed. Then they would be much older than Dany's dragons in ADwD.

On Netty and Daemon:

I thought of Leaf, too, when I read about her, but I'm not sure if that would make any sense. But the possibility that she and Sheepstealer did travel beyond the Wall has to be considered. Daemon's fate has written prophecy all over it. The chance for him to come back in the main series are not that bad, either. It's not mentioned that he wore any armor when riding Caraxes for the last time (and I doubt that since then it would have been all but impossible for him to jump on Vhagar). If he had worn armor he would have drowned in the God's Eye with absolute certainty (and they would have found his corpse near Aemond's - armor is heavy, and queer currents and fish would not have been able to make it disappear). My guess is that he may have joined the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. There is this queer remark that Addam may have talked to them, but I don't think that's true. We don't know anything about the Green Men yet, but if there is a group were longevity of the sort the greenseers have is an option then among them.

Daemon's last actions could make sense if Rhaenyra's command would have been something he had heard about in a prophecy or vision before, something that would herald or cause a significant change in his life. A change he was not exactly looking forward to. He may have had prophetic dreams himself or he realized something with the help of Nettles (who may be the one with prophetic dreams). She could easily be a bastard daughter of Daemon, even although she does not claim that. It may be that Daemon only later realizes that this could be the case when he realizes that she resembles a woman he once knew.

Maia,

Rhaena could identify Viserys, yes. But for that to happen they would have to meet. Rhaena took three eggs to the Vale, and I'd not be surprised if at least one of these eggs hatched. Viserys also has his own egg. If he resurfaces not in the Vale but some place else his egg and/or his dragon would be the thing to identify him. I've contemplated the idea that he may have found his way back to Dragonstone, too, and is the going to bond with the Cannibal, but that does seem to be too much...

I doubt that some sort of ritual hatches dragon eggs since it would then be not exactly that smart to give the eggs to Targaryen children. Especially not to children who are not on Dragonstone (Maelor, Rhaena). But I'm inclined to believe that it is much more likely that an egg hatches on Dragonstone than elsewhere.

[Gertrude]

Moondancer. I didn't think she'd be getting as many votes as she has :). I loved her last stand, but mostly I loved her coloring. Honestly, I want to see all of these dragons depicted because they sound gorgeous. The Red Queen also stands out to me. I am intrigued by the wild dragons and how they got to be so. I understand that dragons were a Targ thing and there are only so many 'true' Targs, but letting a resource like that go wild doesn't seem prudent.

[The hairy bear]

Also I'm confused about the "wingbones of pearl." Dragonbone is supposed to be black from it's high iron content right? and these wingbones are...visible somehow?

Dragon wing's are inspired in bats, whose wings allow the bones to be seen. Most pictures of dragons show visible wingbones, most times in the upper part like this one, and also in the lower part like this one.

[RumHam]

Dragon wing's are inspired in bats, whose wings allow the bones to be seen. Most pictures of dragons show visible wingbones, most times in the upper part like this one, and also in the lower part like this one.

The crest is the bony ridge along the dragon's head and neck. This drawing shows bony protrusions on the back of the head that I would call a crest.

As to the wingbones, I assumed it meant the skin and scales covering the wingbones, not that the bones themselves were visible. Kind of like how Siamese cats are cream with dark 'points' (ears, feet, etc).

Thanks to both of you.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

snip

There must be an early battle that has been cut between rivermen and westmen, where Lord Jason Lannister dies, and also Benjicot's father and Red Robb.

snip

I don't think Bejicot's Father (Samwell) and Red Robb could have died at the same battle. Benji was referred to as the "new" lord Blackwood when he arrived to the "Fishfeed." So, his dad was already dead. At the same time Red Robb was still alive and at the command of the 300 archers (taking out all of the ravens heading to Harrenhal). If Red Robb died in an ensuing battle it would have been the battle of stoney ridge (where Criston Cole dies) or Tumbleton II, or some unknown battle between the Fishfeed and T-2. But thanks for the Mush info.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Meleys and Syrax fascinated me. Moondancer is a close one, and Silverwing and Vermithor.

[Yin]

It seems quite different than how the rider-dragon bonds are said to be formed than in the novels. Rather than sorcery and spells, it seemed to depend on the acceptance of the person, and also on if the dragon is accustomed (Or had grown up with) men around them, and their tolerance of specific individuals.

Does this mean the warging/dragonhorn won't be necessary for Dany's dragons?

[The Sword of the Darkness]

Idk if it has been brought up but does anyone think brown ben is a descendant of Nettles?

[Maia]

I've contemplated the idea that he may have found his way back to Dragonstone, too, and is the going to bond with the Cannibal, but that does seem to be too much....

Yes, indeed. But I also think that Viserys is going to lose his egg, unless he just gets ransomed by the Blacks or their allies. For some reason I doubt that Viserys ever became a dragonrider.

.

I doubt that some sort of ritual hatches dragon eggs since it would then be not exactly that smart to give the eggs to Targaryen children. Especially not to children who are not on Dragonstone (Maelor, Rhaena). But I'm inclined to believe that it is much more likely that an egg hatches on Dragonstone than elsewhere.

I think that it was a two-part process. That the egg was to be kept in constant contact with a Targaryen until it was ready to hatch - maybe that's when the Targ in question felt the "heat" from the egg or the egg's craving for heat?

And when that happened, the egg was taken to Dragonstone to hatch and a magical ritual was performed. That's why they had "hatcheries" on Dragonstone and why Sunfyre was also hatched on there, despite the fact that Aegon must have resided in KL, just as his kids did. The ritual could have been performed/directed by an adult.

[Juan_Snow]

So nobody is curious about the conspicuous lack of any dragonhorn usage to control dragons in this story full of people controlling dragons?

I noticed that. Eurons supposed Dragon Horn was one of the first thing I thought of when I finished the story.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

We can't really know for sure, but I daresay that all the dragonseed dragonriders may have had Valyrian (or Targaryen blood). When the call goes out Rhaenyra but controls Dragonstone, Driftmark, and the other holdings sworn to Dragonstone. [...]

Yeah, I get the feeling that GRRM leaves this question deliberately open: If we want to, we can believe that all of the riders have a good amount of Valyrian blood and it's a prerequisite. If we don't, the facts also seem to be consistent with only some riders actually having Valyrian blood and that being more or less a coincidence (cause only people of Dragonstone were asked).

My personal expectation would be somewhere in between those two, i.e. Valyrian blood as something that facilitates bonding, but is not the one thing that makes or breaks the connection.

[Gertrude]

I don't think we can extrapolate what will be necessary for Dany's dragons based on what we saw in this short story. First of all, we are only told of the dragon bond by people who weren't involved - they can only tell us what they see from the outside. It's also been filtered through time and retellings. Even if the info came straight from a dragon-rider, we don't know it's the truth either, since they would want to control the message and put a PR spin on it.

It's also possible that the Targs in Westeros don't know everything about dragons. They know what works for them and they keep using the same methods, but it's entirely possible there are more ways than one to tame a dragon. The bond doesn't appear to be like a warg-bond, but since we aren't inside the head of a dragon-rider, it's hard to know. Dany and Drogon didn't seem to have that bond, but it doesn't mean that skinchanging wouldn't work.

[Gertrude]

This history was not told by a Targ, who might actually know the mysteries and rituals of taming a dragon. If they had a horn (which I do actually doubt) it was probably not generally known. They would have every incentive to hide this information to protect it against anyone seeking to steal the horn and use it against them. Even the dragons tamed at Dragonstone by anyone who would try doesn't work against the theory of a horn. I would assume the Greens had possession of the horn in KL if one existed, so the Blacks had to resort to random chance and hope for the best.

Also, it's not impossible that the Targs knew one method of taming dragons, but other methods exist.