Was Sansa disinherited?

[GinesthoiOfIce]

@Jon's Queen consort : Thank you for the quote. "That dwarf must never have the north" means that it isn't Sansa Stark that has been disinherited, it is Sansa Lannister or Sansa as wife of Tyrion. I'm going to repeat myself but the will may bear a clause saying that Sansa, should she be widowed/divorced from Tyrion and without any offspring from the forced marriage, would regain her claim.

Let's not forget that the will was written while Sansa was still stuck at King's Landing, believed to have had her marriage consummated and without any mean of escape. This clause I mention and advocate for the existence of would, I think, have been induced by Catelyn not wanting her daughter completely disinhereted, but knowing that It would be highly unlikely for Sansa to escape the Lannisters and keep her maidenhead intact, thus she would still have been angered by the will.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

@Jon's Queen consort : Thank you for the quote. "That dwarf must never have the north" means that it isn't Sansa Stark that has been disinherited, it is Sansa Lannister or Sansa as wife of Tyrion. I'm going to repeat myself but the will may bear a clause saying that Sansa, should she be widowed/divorced from Tyrion and without any offspring from the forced marriage, would regain her claim.

Let's not forget that the will was written while Sansa was still stuck at King's Landing, believed to have had her marriage consummated and without any mean of escape. This clause I mention and advocate for the existence of would, I think, have been induced by Catelyn not wanting her daughter completely disinhereted, but knowing that It would be highly unlikely for Sansa to escape the Lannisters and keep her maidenhead intact, thus she would still have been angered by the will.

Tyrion Lannister=Sansa Lannister. Tyrion cannot been disinherited by Robb, Sansa can and he has.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

@Jon's Queen consort : Thank you for the quote. "That dwarf must never have the north" means that it isn't Sansa Stark that has been disinherited, it is Sansa Lannister or Sansa as wife of Tyrion. I'm going to repeat myself but the will may bear a clause saying that Sansa, should she be widowed/divorced from Tyrion and without any offspring from the forced marriage, would regain her claim.

Let's not forget that the will was written while Sansa was still stuck at King's Landing, believed to have had her marriage consummated and without any mean of escape. This clause I mention and advocate for the existence of would, I think, have been induced by Catelyn not wanting her daughter completely disinhereted, but knowing that It would be highly unlikely for Sansa to escape the Lannisters and keep her maidenhead intact, thus she would still have been angered by the will.

What clause is that? The one that states that if Sansa manages to shake off her Lannister husband she's back in the running? Sansa Stark is Sansa Lannister to everyone in Westeros. Neither Catelyn nor Robb would expect her to miraculously get out of the marriage any time soon and not without children. That's the soap opera mentality coming out again. It is highly unlikely that there is such a clause. Let's not forget that Catelyn had nothing to do with what is in the will and Robb was adamant about keeping Winterfell out of the hands of the Lannisters.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

What clause is that? The one that states that if Sansa manages to shake off her Lannister husband she's back in the running? Sansa Stark is Sansa Lannister to everyone in Westeros. Neither Catelyn nor Robb would expect her to miraculously get out of the marriage any time soon and not without children. That's the soap opera mentality coming out again. It is highly unlikely that there is such a clause. Let's not forget that Catelyn had nothing to do with what is in the will and Robb was adamant about keeping Winterfell out of the hands of the Lannisters.

I fail to see how this is "soap mentality". It is a will and they had to take into account every possibility, since Jon is but one man and should he fall, as Robb did, what would have happened ? Bran, Rickon and Arya were all believed to be dead. We have no idea about whether or not there is besides Jon an Harry The Heir type claimant after the Stark kids to claim the North with a Stark claim.

The unlikeliness of the scenario where Sansa escapes from the Lannisters with her maidenhead intact is exactly why such a clause would have been disregarded and deemed non-threatening in any way. It could also include Sansa being forced to marry a Northman or something like it to ensure the North being to the Northmen.

As to Catelyn, She had influence over Robb (a weak influence, but still) and could still have enticed him into writing that.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Jon's Queen consort : Thank you for the quote. "That dwarf must never have the north" means that it isn't Sansa Stark that has been disinherited, it is Sansa Lannister or Sansa as wife of Tyrion. I'm going to repeat myself but the will may bear a clause saying that Sansa, should she be widowed/divorced from Tyrion and without any offspring from the forced marriage, would regain her claim.

Let's not forget that the will was written while Sansa was still stuck at King's Landing, believed to have had her marriage consummated and without any mean of escape. This clause I mention and advocate for the existence of would, I think, have been induced by Catelyn not wanting her daughter completely disinhereted, but knowing that It would be highly unlikely for Sansa to escape the Lannisters and keep her maidenhead intact, thus she would still have been angered by the will.

I'm no attorney and I'm not an expert on inheritance or succession laws but that [clause] sounds like it could be way to risky to me. I might have to dig around to look at some middle aged feudal society examples of this.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I fail to see how this is "soap mentality".

I know.

As to Catelyn, She had influence over Robb (a weak influence, but still) and could still have enticed him into writing that.

I am specifically referring to the will and it's very clear from the text that Catelyn has no say about it. Robb writes it and shows it to her and she responds about his being a true king. That's it. When Robb tells her he is planning on making Jon his heir Cat specifically says there are the girls and to please not ask her to go along with this. He writes it anyway. No magical clauses for Sansa but there might have been language about Jeyne and her possible child:

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle,

the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so

Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord

husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must

never have the north.”

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a

son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had

a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They

had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for

certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . . ”

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the

north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes

after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . . ”

“ . . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why

do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa

too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me.

Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped

you would support my choice.”

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not

ask it.”

“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down

from the tomb and loping after him.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I just can't see any provision Robb could have made for Sansa save surviving the death of all the Lannister's, a very unlikely outcome. He might have put in one for Arya "if alive & free..."sort of thing.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I dont have to. Im the king. Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down

from the tomb and loping after him.

Slightly off-topic, but it's because of this line of thought that Robb ended up dead. Had he listened to his mother, Rickon and Bran would be safe in Winterfell and he'd be married with Roslin Frey. Sansa would be back, traded for Jaime and married off to Willas Tyrell (Possibly) and the Starks would be eventually reunited with Arya. Win-Win, with Theon still standing at his side, and possible victory over the Lannisters.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Slightly off-topic, but it's because of this line of thought that Robb ended up dead. Had he listened to his mother, Rickon and Bran would be safe in Winterfell and he'd be married with Roslin Frey. Sansa would be back, traded for Jaime and married off to Willas Tyrell (Possibly) and the Starks would be eventually reunited with Arya. Win-Win, with Theon still standing at his side, and possible victory over the Lannisters.

If we play that game, the whole story wouldn't exist. Hindsight is always 20/20. Plus, I never said Cat was wrong in her advice only that Robb didn't listen to her. That said, I believe Cat was wrong in this one and was just letting her long time hatred of Jon cloud her judgment. Jon, with his maturity and experience at the Wall, was definitely the logical choice (over both Arya and Sansa) given the tumultuous time of war they were in at the time.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

If we play that game, the whole story wouldn't exist. Hindsight is always 20/20. Plus, I never said Cat was wrong in her advice only that Robb didn't listen to her. That said, I believe Cat was wrong in this one and was just letting her long time hatred of Jon cloud her judgment. Jon, with his maturity and experience at the Wall, was definitely the logical choice (over both Arya and Sansa) given the tumultuous time of war they were in at the time.

I disagree. Simply, Sansa was the heir. I do agree with Robb over the situation in itself, but if Sansa was with Starks, or Arya for that matter, they shouldn't be passed because "Jon's more experienced." It is their right.

Also, I wasn't claiming anything about you, that's why i put slightly off-topic. But yes, Robb didn't listen. And it's not really hindsight. It was advice he ignored. He could have followed it through. He was warned.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I disagree. Simply, Sansa was the heir. I do agree with Robb over the situation in itself, but if Sansa was with Starks, or Arya for that matter, they shouldn't be passed because "Jon's more experienced." It is their right.

Yes it is their right but once Jon is legitimized it is his right too, and the order of succession is not so clear. These are the words of Martin himself. And again, if the choice is between a young girl or boy (Rickon should be included here) with no battle or leadership experience or one with experience at a time when the entire realm is at war, it's very logical to go with the one with experience. To go with the one without experience means accepting that others will have to act on their behalf and I don't see anyone wanting that option given the risk of the regent becoming to powerful. It's why Roose says a child heir is a catastrophe.

[ladyinblack]

What clause is that? The one that states that if Sansa manages to shake off her Lannister husband she's back in the running? Sansa Stark is Sansa Lannister to everyone in Westeros. Neither Catelyn nor Robb would expect her to miraculously get out of the marriage any time soon and not without children. That's the soap opera mentality coming out again. It is highly unlikely that there is such a clause. Let's not forget that Catelyn had nothing to do with what is in the will and Robb was adamant about keeping Winterfell out of the hands of the Lannisters.

Thank you, Ser Pounce

You are correct

[ladyinblack]

Slightly off-topic, but it's because of this line of thought that Robb ended up dead. Had he listened to his mother, Rickon and Bran would be safe in Winterfell and he'd be married with Roslin Frey. Sansa would be back, traded for Jaime and married off to Willas Tyrell (Possibly) and the Starks would be eventually reunited with Arya. Win-Win, with Theon still standing at his side, and possible victory over the Lannisters.

None of this makes sense, you know.

I don't think the Lannisters would have traded Sansa for Jaime & just said sorry about Ned.Sansa knew nothing about Willas. The Boltons were already making moves. Why do you think Roose left such a strong force behind w Ramsay? Oh yay. Because Robb didn't listen to his mother.

[Newstar]

Can I just say how much I'm loving this discussion of wills? I even wound up reading a paper about a dispute over a 15th century will. Fascinating stuff!

I'm going to repeat myself but the will may bear a clause saying that Sansa, should she be widowed/divorced from Tyrion and without any offspring from the forced marriage, would regain her claim. Let's not forget that the will was written while Sansa was still stuck at King's Landing, believed to have had her marriage consummated and without any mean of escape.

I don't think so. Robb was treating Arya and Sansa as if they had already died:

"No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

That sounds like someone who believes that Arya is dead and Sansa is as good as dead, that Jon is the one sibling he considers "remaining" to him. Someone with Robb's attitude isn't going to insert any "if and when" clauses to reverse his choice if certain conditions are met (Sansa escapes from the Lannisters, the marriage is annulled, etc.), given that he seems resigned to the inevitability of Sansa's death and he believes those conditions can never be fulfilled.

This clause I mention and advocate for the existence of would, I think, have been induced by Catelyn not wanting her daughter completely disinhereted, but knowing that It would be highly unlikely for Sansa to escape the Lannisters and keep her maidenhead intact, thus she would still have been angered by the will.

Catelyn had no power to "induce" anything, as Robb pointed out. She has no bargaining power here:

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this… this folly. Do not ask it.”
“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

She made her pitch for Arya and Sansa's rights ("Have you considered your sisters?"), and Robb shut her down cold. Not only that, but Robb points out that he doesn't strictly need her support to do as he chooses. Robb knows she's pissed and doesn't like his choice of Jon, but he's made it clear that while he would like her support, he doesn't need it and will do as he sees fit. All of that points away from a clause aimed at pacifying Catelyn.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that I have some old thread asking if Robb disinherited Arya too, or put Jon before her. The big question is if he though her betrothal to Freys was still valid,if yes then putting Jon before Arya would be big insult to Freys. So I wonder if Robb done this little compromise for Cat and Freys and put his possible unborn child and Arya (whom he thought dead anyway) before Jon.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I think that I have some old thread asking if Robb disinherited Arya too, or put Jon before her. The big question is if he though her betrothal to Freys was still valid,if yes then putting Jon before Arya would be big insult to Freys. So I wonder if Robb done this little compromise for Cat and Freys and put his possible unborn child and Arya (whom he thought dead anyway) before Jon.

That's a really good point about not slighting the Freys again Ice Turtle... I had not considered that before, do you have a link to the thread?

[Minsc]

If we play that game, the whole story wouldn't exist. Hindsight is always 20/20. Plus, I never said Cat was wrong in her advice only that Robb didn't listen to her. That said, I believe Cat was wrong in this one and was just letting her long time hatred of Jon cloud her judgment. Jon, with his maturity and experience at the Wall, was definitely the logical choice (over both Arya and Sansa) given the tumultuous time of war they were in at the time.

What experience and maturity? Jon only accomplishment at the time was mainly getting himself captured by wildlings.

Not to mention, he is still sworn to the NW for life and the NW has no reason to accept Robb's pathetic request.

[Dicer]

What experience and maturity? Jon only accomplishment at the time was mainly getting himself captured by wildlings.

Not to mention, he is still sworn to the NW for life and the NW has no reason to accept Robb's pathetic request.

Jon was 15/16 and had the same teachers and training as Robb. Are you saying that Sansa and Arya would be the better logical choice over Jon to lead an army?

As for his oaths:

The second concerns the oaths of the Night Watch, Maesters, King's Guard, silent sisters, etc. Both Robb and Stannis, and presumably Robb's great lords, thought it was possible that Jon could be released form his oaths. Other than the precedent established by Joffrey with Ser Barristan, is there any other past precedent with any of the other organizations were the members swear poverty, celibacy, etc. to be honorably released from their vows? I ask because if the NW has been around for 8000 years, and many great lords and/or their families may have joined (not entirely willing in some cases), there seems to be a lot of potential for "exceptions" to develop as time went on.

GRRM: Yes, there have been a few other cases, but they have been very rare. Such vows are taken very seriously.

So there has been a few cases where people have been released from their oaths. It maybe rare, but it has happened.

[Sansa_Stark]

What experience and maturity? Jon only accomplishment at the time was mainly getting himself captured by wildlings.

Not to mention, he is still sworn to the NW for life and the NW has no reason to accept Robb's pathetic request.

Whereas Sansa's experience was getting captured due to betraying her father.

And Arya got captured more than once I believe.

[Addam of Hull]

Jon was 15/16 and had the same teachers and training as Robb. Are you saying that Sansa and Arya would be the better logical choice over Jon to lead an army?

As for his oaths:

So there has been a few cases where people have been released from their oaths. It maybe rare, but it has happened.

By the time any information about the Will would have reached him, it would be after his defense of the Wall, so there's that as well. Of course, the chances are he might have been elected Lord Commander by then, which is a whole other can of worms, but Robb has no reason to assume that Jon would be a bad choice to succeed at any rate.