Was Sansa disinherited?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

She was treacherous for being a hostage?

I don't think so but this is the only thing, with her saying Cersei Ned's plans, that could be considered as treacherous. But to play devil's advocate, we know that she was hostage, Robb didn't.

[Minsc]

But to play devil's advocate, we know that she was hostage, Robb didn't.

Robb isn't a complete moron, thus he is smart enough to realize that she is a hostage.

[A wilding]

Indeed. Catelyn says to Robb something about the letter being Cersei's words in Sansa's writing.

[Little and Less]

At the time Rob wrote his will, he was 1. KITN and 2. Lord of Winterfell (and Lord Parmount of the North?). Because of this HE named his heir - Jon Snow, and his choice is law, at least based on Westeros standards. Was Sansa disinherited - I'd say yes. (No one in KL was going to fight the Northmen.)

Good points about LF not knowing about the will - this will obviously screw up his schemes (and probably Varys). Interesting the will could legitimize Jon which will screw LF/Sansa, and if R+L=J is found out, this will screw up Varys and FAegon. Interesting where loyalities will go if both items are found out.

I'm going to use Tywin as an example here:

Tywin disinherited Tyrion - how can he? By all laws in Westeros, Tywin could not do this - Tyrion is next in line because Jaime is part of the KG. Yet Tywin has no problem saying that Tyrion can not inherit CR. (Which makes you scratch your head as to why Tywin didn't marry and have another male child - I know he loved Joanna, but this thought didn't dawn on him in the 14+ years Jaime's been a KG? Anything could have happened to Jaime during this time (fighting in wars and rebellions)....)

Thus Lords can name their heirs as they so choose. Tywin didn't need approval from the IT to do this before he flat out refused Tyrion's request.

[Victor227]

What Robb did was sort of a 'bypass' to the succession by adding Jon as a legitimate heir. Women can't inherit in Westeros before their brothers, so the point as to whether or not Sansa was 'disinherited' is completely moot. As far as Robb knew, there were no other brothers to contest the claim with, and Arya was likely dead as well. It was between Sansa, and Jon, and by legitimizing Jon, he placed him in the succession ahead of Sansa, while not impeding her own rights.

Obviously, if she did try to claim the North as a Lannister puppet, it would come down to what every single inheritance squabble in the history of mankind has come down to: Who can better enforce their claim.

[Ice Turtle]

What Robb did was sort of a 'bypass' to the succession by adding Jon as a legitimate heir. Women can't inherit in Westeros before their brothers, so the point as to whether or not Sansa was 'disinherited' is completely moot. As far as Robb knew, there were no other brothers to contest the claim with, and Arya was likely dead as well. It was between Sansa, and Jon, and by legitimizing Jon, he placed him in the succession ahead of Sansa, while not impeding her own rights.

Obviously, if she did try to claim the North as a Lannister puppet, it would come down to what every single inheritance squabble in the history of mankind has come down to: Who can better enforce their claim.

Only legitimizing Jon and naming him his heir would indeed only put Sansa behind Jon, which is why I think Robb's will also contains part which disinherits Sansa, so Winterfell wouldn't pass to Lannisters even if Jon died childless. Robb's intention was a) make son of Eddard Stark and a northman the heir b ) make sure Winterfell will never pass to a Lannister. No matter what. It was actually more important to disinherit Sansa than to make Jon an heir.

[Bruce Wayne]

If Robb will didn't exist, and Sansa and Tyrion went to Winterfell to took the place as Lord and Lady, what would be the chance of Tyrion survive in the North? thats why i believe she was not disinherited but put behind Jon in the line of sucession.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Robb will didn't exist, and Sansa and Tyrion went to Winterfell to took the place as Lord and Lady, what would be the chance of Tyrion survive in the North? thats why i believe she was not disinherited but put behind Jon in the line of sucession.

I will allow Robb to answer that one: "I cannot allow that. I will not allow that."

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't think so but this is the only thing, with her saying Cersei Ned's plans, that could be considered as treacherous. But to play devil's advocate, we know that she was hostage, Robb didn't.

Robb does know. If he didn't, how would he even consider the situation being Jaime being traded for Sansa? It's fairly obvious she is a hostage, and it's stated numerous times about it. Unless Robb was completely stupid, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Robb does know. If he didn't, how would he even consider the situation being Jaime being traded for Sansa? It's fairly obvious she is a hostage, and it's stated numerous times about it. Unless Robb was completely stupid, which doesn't seem to be the case.

It wasn't Cat and not Robb the one who wanted to trade Jaime with Sansa and that heppens before they learn that Sansa is a Lannister. As I said before, I don't believe that being a hostage equals that you are a traitor.

[Iona]

If Robb will didn't exist, and Sansa and Tyrion went to Winterfell to took the place as Lord and Lady, what would be the chance of Tyrion survive in the North? thats why i believe she was not disinherited but put behind Jon in the line of sucession.

To answer your actual question of Robb's will not existing, I did play ball with some other posters on another thread about how practicalities would have been handled if Sansa and Tyrion ever were in a position to hold power over Winterfell. That conversation also involved Tyrion being the lord of Casterly Rock, so in that case it would be highly unlikely that Tyrion would actually go north himself, nor allow her wife to go there.

My thought was that they would appoint a castellan, who would take care of WF and it's business, while Sansa popped out some sons - first son would inherit CL, second would get WF, and once that son would come of age, he'd go take over WF. The hard thing about this is that the castellan should be someone the northmen actually approved, so finding one would be really difficult. And Sansa should take care of all the correspondence between them and WF, so that the men serving there felt like they were doing it for Ned's daughter instead of the Lannister dwarf. So all in all a pretty difficult situation.

Of course Tyrion could just hire s**tloads of sellswords and go hold Winterfell by force, but for some reason I tried to approach it in a more peaceful manner... :)

[Iona]

It wasn't Cat and not Robb the one who wanted to trade Jaime with Sansa and that heppens before they learn that Sansa is a Lannister. As I said before, I don't believe that being a hostage equals that you are a traitor.

I think people are trying to point out that everybody knew Sansa was being held hostage the second Ned was arrested.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think people are trying to point out that everybody knew Sansa was being held hostage the second Ned was arrested.

I said that I was going to play devil's advocate, I don't believe it. But I don't think that everyone will believe that Sansa was an hostage, especially since she became lady Lannister.

[Newstar]

Isn't the question of Sansa's disinheritance an academic one, even leaving Jon out of it? She was never the true heir at any time, as Bran and Rickon were always alive and always came ahead of her, and now that Rickon is known to be alive by at least a few of the northerners, her window of being the believed heir has closed, Jon or no Jon.

Also, even if the will is legit and accepted as such by pretty much everyone, assuming Jon refuses his inheritance on the basis of his vows, and assuming Rickon and Bran remain AWOL, would any of the northerners really care about Sansa being displaced by Jon in the will if she staked her claim and made a play for Winterfell? They'd surely take any Stark over the alternative, especially if Jon cedes his claim.

Sansa being bumped down the inheritance order only even comes into play if the following three things happen:

1) The will is widely communicated and accepted by the northerners

2) Rickon and Bran remain AWOL

3) Jon accepts what the will has decreed and rejects the NW in favour of Robb's wishes

#1 is likely--and may have already happened, depending on whether you buy the GNC--but #2 and #3 are highly unlikely, meaning that whatever the will specified with respect to Sansa, it's likely irrelevant in any event.

Even assuming these three things happen, I can't see any scenario where Sansa and Jon would come into conflict over Winterfell that wouldn't be wildly out of character. I guess it would "matter" that Sansa had been bumped in favour of Jon if these three things happened, in that he would get Winterfell and she wouldn't, but would Sansa really care? She doesn't want to be married off for her claim, and she despairs of no one ever wanting to marry her for love. If she was bumped in favour of Jon, that would pretty much guarantee that whoever sought to marry her was not in it for her claim, and that could only be a win in Sansa's book.

That isn't to say the will won't be important, but it might be a last temptation-type scenario for Jon, where he's offered everything he's wanted but rejects it in favour of duty. I think it relates solely to Jon in that sense. I very much doubt it's going to trigger some sort of succession fight between Jon and Sansa, for the reasons I outlined.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Isn't the question of Sansa's disinheritance an academic one, even leaving Jon out of it? She was never the true heir at any time, as Bran and Rickon were always alive and always came ahead of her, and now that Rickon is known to be alive by at least a few of the northerners, her window of being the believed heir has closed, Jon or no Jon.

Also, even if the will is legit and accepted as such by pretty much everyone, assuming Jon refuses his inheritance on the basis of his vows, and assuming Rickon and Bran remain AWOL, would any of the northerners really care about Sansa being displaced by Jon in the will if she staked her claim and made a play for Winterfell? They'd surely take any Stark over the alternative, especially if Jon cedes his claim.

Sansa being bumped down the inheritance order only even comes into play if the following three things happen:

1) The will is widely communicated and accepted by the northerners

2) Rickon and Bran remain AWOL

3) Jon accepts what the will has decreed and rejects the NW in favour of Robb's wishes

#1 is likely--and may have already happened, depending on whether you buy the GNC--but #2 and #3 are highly unlikely, meaning that whatever the will specified with respect to Sansa, it's likely irrelevant in any event.

Even assuming these three things happen, I can't see any scenario where Sansa and Jon would come into conflict over Winterfell that wouldn't be wildly out of character. I guess it would "matter" that Sansa had been bumped in favour of Jon if these three things happened, in that he would get Winterfell and she wouldn't, but would Sansa really care? She doesn't want to be married off for her claim, and she despairs of no one ever wanting to marry her for love. If she was bumped in favour of Jon, that would pretty much guarantee that whoever sought to marry her was not in it for her claim, and that could only be a win in Sansa's book.

That isn't to say the will won't be important, but it might be a last temptation-type scenario for Jon, where he's offered everything he's wanted but rejects it in favour of duty. I think it relates solely to Jon in that sense. I very much doubt it's going to trigger some sort of succession fight between Jon and Sansa, for the reasons I outlined.

Agreed. Lord Manderly and Davos... they know there are two of Ned's trueborn boys wandering out here... actually, they even know where where one of them (Rickon) is... I see no reason to them support Jon and not Bran/Rickon, particularly after Jon releasing thousands of Wildlings in the North.

[Tywin Manderly]

Who would execute Sansa or banish her to a convent? Certainly not the northmen, or anyone other than perhaps the Lannisters, in the name of her 'cheating' on Tyrion Lannister and committing high treason? Which she wouldn't be committing anyway, even if the northmen were to acknowledge their marriage, since Tyrion is not a king.

By cheating on Tyrion Sansa would be commtting the crime of petty treason which is treason against a lawful superior, in this case her husband. And it is solely within the purview of the of the High Septon or a Council of Faith to determine whether Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is invalid.

Do you really think Sansa would prefer her children to be named Lannister? I don't. Especially since her attitude to bastardy has dramatically changed of late. She now enjoys playing a bastard and is fascinated by women like Ellaria Sand and Mya Stone.

What Sansa prefers does not matter. As long as she is married to Tyrion her children will get the name of Lannister. And Sansa at the moment is better off pretending to a bastard because if she reveals her trueborn identity she would be on her way to the execution block because of the charges of regicide against her.

This entire extremely convoluted argument was based on the idea that Sansa can't help but have "Lannister children" if she ever has children, under the assumption that her marriage to Tyrion would be so difficult to annul in the meantime (despite never having been consummated), and that this is something that would discredit her in the eyes of the northern lords. Well, in that unlikely and convoluted event, she could always proclaim her children bastards rather than Lannisters, if the last name is such a big obstacle.

A declaration like that her children are bastards would be have to be made before a very senior legal authority like the king or the High Septon, but by making that declaration Sansa would also confess to the crime of petty treason and subsequently be executed or packed off to the Silent Sisters and I don't think she is in for that.

If it's not, then they can be officially Lannisters while everyone knows they're not. Kind of like Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen Baratheon.

They are as official trueborns, however, much better off than bastards.

I can't believe we're even seriously discussing this scenario about Sansa's hypothetical children by hypothetical fathers during her hypothetically still lasting marriage.

This hypothetical could very much become reality in the next books.

Let's say this hypothetical worst case scenario does happen. Sansa doesn't get an annulment from Tyrion, she has sex with someone else in the meantime and gets pregnant and has a baby, and it turns out that they're going to be named Lannister no matter how much she tries to stop that...

Who exactly is this going to endanger? Let's see... You would have children by Sansa Stark and whoever, with not a drop of Lannister DNA, raised by Sansa Stark and whoever else, probably raised in the North and brought up to be aware that they're really Starks rather than Lannisters and to resent the Lannisters, while everyone is well aware that they're not Lannisters, and they have no relationship whatsoever with Tyrion or Cersei or Jaime or any of the Lannister clan.

Those children still are legally Lannisters and therefore under the ultimate control of the Head of House Lannister.

This is helping the Lannisters... do what, exactly? Tyrion is still MIA, or if he's not and returns all eager for the North, he can, what, go to the north to try to exercise his rights as a "husband", "father" and "Lord of Winterfell"? Even if he wanted to, he'd have to have a large army (obviously not a Lannister one, considering Tyrion's relations with his family at the moment, and those pesky murder/regicide charges, which may not mean a thing in the North, but they do in King's Landing and Casterly Rock) and hope that there's no northman around who will make him a head shorter and make lady Sansa a widow.

None of the other Lannisters have any claim over Winterfell. And the "Lannister" (Stark) children would not care about their "relatives". I don't think the Lannisters would be delighted by the fact there were Sansa's kids called Lannister in Winterfell that everyone knew were actually Sansa's bastard kids by someone else. How does that give the real Lannisters any power? I imagine that they would, quite the opposite, be eager for those fake Lannisters to lose that name. The last thing they would need is Sansa's kids saying one day: "How about that claim to Casterly Rock that we have..."

By being married to Tyrion Sansa and her children are under the control of the Head of House Lannister and would have to dance to his or her tune and via their legal claim the Lannisters can rule the North amd that is the only thing what counts for the Lannisters: power.

[Colonel Green]

Those children still are legally Lannisters and therefore under the ultimate control of the Head of House Lannister.

Except that they're not, because the head of House Lannister doesn't actually have possession of them.

Moreover, in these hypothetical scenarios where the North is still fighting as an independence movement, what the High Septon are whoever says wouldn't be terribly significant on its own. Succession and such is not like going to a modern civil court and getting claims and technicalities adjudicated. If the North has the power to remain outside the Iron Throne/Lannister regime's control, it will do so, regardless of what people say about Sansa's hypothetical children. If, contrarily, the Iron Throne/Lannisters have the power to enforce their will on the North, they will do so regardless.

Sansa's being married to Tyrion was intended as a fig leaf/legal justification for the cold reality of Lannister occupation. It's not a means to accomplish it in and of itself.

[Jaak]

By cheating on Tyrion Sansa would be commtting the crime of petty treason which is treason against a lawful superior, in this case her husband. And it is solely within the purview of the of the High Septon or a Council of Faith to determine whether Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is invalid.

Neither High Septon nor Council of Faith hold authority in the North. If the Northmen declare Sansa´s marriage invalid because of lack of family consent and heart tree then High Septon cannot change that.

What Sansa prefers does not matter. As long as she is married to Tyrion her children will get the name of Lannister.

Berena Hornwood was married to Tallhart, and her sons got the name Tallhart - but she could choose to rename them, or just one of them, Hornwood.

And Sansa at the moment is better off pretending to a bastard because if she reveals her trueborn identity she would be on her way to the execution block because of the charges of regicide against her.

So long as Vale holds for Tommen of Iron Throne.

A declaration like that her children are bastards would be have to be made before a very senior legal authority like the king or the High Septon, but by making that declaration Sansa would also confess to the crime of petty treason and subsequently be executed or packed off to the Silent Sisters and I don't think she is in for that.

Had she escaped to King Robb in his lifetime, she could have made the declaration before THAT king - and HE was not going to punish her for that. And if she claims North with support of the Northerners in rebellion against the Iron Throne, then she is herself that very senior legal authority.

By being married to Tyrion Sansa and her children are under the control of the Head of House Lannister and would have to dance to his or her tune and via their legal claim the Lannisters can rule the North amd that is the only thing what counts for the Lannisters: power.

No. Whoever is willing to rebel against the legal claim of King on the Iron Throne may also choose to ignore or overrule the legal claim of a husband and father.

[Annara Snow]

By cheating on Tyrion Sansa would be commtting the crime of petty treason which is treason against a lawful superior, in this case her husband. And it is solely within the purview of the of the High Septon or a Council of Faith to determine whether Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is invalid.

No one in the North would give a fuck about Sansa's lord husband the Imp and whether she committed 'treason' against him. They'd only laugh at it and the entire 'marriage' that the Lannisters forced Sansa into. They also would not give a fuck about the High Septon, for that matter - he's not even of their religion.

Those children still are legally Lannisters and therefore under the ultimate control of the Head of House Lannister.

By being married to Tyrion Sansa and her children are under the control of the Head of House Lannister and would have to dance to his or her tune and via their legal claim the Lannisters can rule the North amd that is the only thing what counts for the Lannisters: power.

About as much as Tommen and Myrcella are under Stannis' control.

The Head of the House Lannister could do nothing as long as the kids are far away under the control of the Northern Lords, or whoever else, and protected by northern soldiers.

[Annara Snow]

Tywin disinherited Tyrion - how can he? By all laws in Westeros, Tywin could not do this - Tyrion is next in line because Jaime is part of the KG. Yet Tywin has no problem saying that Tyrion can not inherit CR. (Which makes you scratch your head as to why Tywin didn't marry and have another male child - I know he loved Joanna, but this thought didn't dawn on him in the 14+ years Jaime's been a KG? Anything could have happened to Jaime during this time (fighting in wars and rebellions)....)

I don't think that Tywin ever officially disinherited Tyrion? He just told him he wouldn't let him have CR, so he was planning to disinherit him if he didn't manage to convince Jaime to leave the KG, which he was still hoping for for a long time. But Tywin was expecting to live for much longer, so I don't think he made an official will. Unfortunately for Tyrion, he's now not in the position to stake his claim to CR...