The BlackBear Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I didn't say he initially 'betrayed' Dow. But his inaction or refusal to act allowed Logan to (what we now know) escape. Dow allows two people to slide on their (varying degrees of ) treachery: Calder and Shivers. His uncharacteristic lapse didn't work out well... A whole slew of things lead to Logans escape, Shivers sure, Splitfoot getting his foot split, Calder being a bad shot, Scale being a bad fighter, Dow himself fights Logan so bears some of the blame, and Logans quick wittedness and luck to spot, make and survive the fall. Dow believes Logan to be dead, there's probably a little niggle in the back of his mind, but Logan has been gone for years he has lost nothing from it. Dow wants to keep Scale, and most importantly Reachey on side, so is more forgiving of Calder. He also realises that he will need to arrange peace at some point the whole battle is about bloodying the Unions nose so he has a strong position at the table. Once that battle is done Calder comes along with his big ideas for peace, and Dow will 'grudgingly' accept the ideas can't come from him or people will think he's gone soft. He's got enough of a reputation that he doesn't need to kill everyone immediately if they have further use to him. Shivers turning on Dow is one of the most fascinating moments in the book, but Dow didn't bring it upon himself by sparing him for killing Logan, he brought it upon him because he treated him like shit. Treat a man like a dog, don't be surprised when it bites you and all that. He's literally described as Dow's Dog by some. He's basically the Hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Shivers turning on Dow is one of the most fascinating moments in the book, but Dow didn't bring it upon himself by sparing him for killing Logan, he brought it upon him because he treated him like shit. Treat a man like a dog, don't be surprised when it bites you and all that. He's literally described as Dow's Dog by some. He's basically the Hound. "Ah, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 "Ah, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" Dow was a leaf on the wind, watch how he-STAB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Shivers...damn.He burned with the desire to have his revenge on Logen...then he let him go. TWICE.The only real problem i had with RED COUNTRY is the disappearance of Shivers for the entire middle of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It is a shame as I like the character, but I think the intention is for you to be constantly wondering when Shivers will appear. I can't quite decide whether I think it's a nice ending to his arc or not, that he's fallen, but not so far as some might think. Or whether I'd like to see him do more. Has Joe said he'll ever return to him as a POV? I like Joe's style but it can be frustrating having so many stoic characters at times :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It is a shame as I like the character, but I think the intention is for you to be constantly wondering when Shivers will appear. I can't quite decide whether I think it's a nice ending to his arc or not, that he's fallen, but not so far as some might think. Or whether I'd like to see him do more. Has Joe said he'll ever return to him as a POV? I like Joe's style but it can be frustrating having so many stoic characters at times :P Agreed. My perspective is probably different from most here. For a number of years, I did not actively read non-fiction, much less Fantasy. I found Abercrombie by accident (was looking for something that looked interesting and was 'complete'). I came to Abercrombie after being sorely disappointed by Brian Rucker's first two books. I read the first sentence of THE BLADE ITSELF (drawn to it by the quote of Homer) and was hooked. I came to GRRM AFTER finishing the FL trilogy. Everything I read in fantasy now is colored by the perspective I've gotten from Lord Grimdark. Abercrombie to GRRM to Lawrence to Parker to Sanderson...now I have moved on to Bakker. I have Hobbes, Erickson and Gemel in the pipe and STILL everything is colored by the bleakness of Abercrombie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Maybe you should take a break from Abercrombie? Something tells me I wouldn't enjoy his books nearly as much if I were reading them all back to back. In six months you might be ready for another of his adventures. Might be worth a shot.Hmm... I guess it comes down to personal preference but I read all the books back to back and loved them. Of the 'standalones' BSC is my favourte due to the dialogue and dark humour. I enjoyed The Heroes but I felt that the conclusion was too repetitve of the trilogy in terms of plot and theme. Still, I enjoyed the skipping PoV's during one the the battle sequences and the Chains of Command chapter was hilarious, bringing to life the metaphor of "shit rolling downhill".I very much agree. BSC's humor had me laughing pretty good at times. Even when trying to hold it in due to being in public or something. I bookmarked several hilarious one liners. Monza alone was far more interesting than any POVs in heroes to me. Shivers was great too. Compared to heroes, they all were more interesting imo. The man can write, don't get me wrong folks... the plots are just way too predictable.If I had to pick a single book BSC would be my favourite. Parts of it have me laughing as much as PG Wodehouse.Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Unlike P G Wodehouse, it's thoroughly black humour. But chapters like "That's Entertainment", the interview of the entertainers/murderers, Cosca's behaviour outside Ospria are hilarious, IMHO. Cosca, alone, is perhaps a good enough reason to read the book. Fascinating character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 IMO, Monza is evil. Not quite as bad as we're initially led to believe, but pretty bad overall. Ganmark told it as it was, during their duel. IMHO, she's the worst of Abercrombie's main protagonists. And, she turns Shivers into something much worse than he was, initially.Shivers made his own choices. What I especially liked was the characterisation of Monza. I found Monza to be refreshing to read as she made many morally gray decisions as the anti-hero and possessed traits normally reserved for male characters.Very much agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliskin Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Cosca, alone, is perhaps a good enough reason to read the book. Fascinating character. And I was really disappointed by his complete transformation in Red Country. BSC's Cosca is my favorite character in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It is a shame as I like the character, but I think the intention is for you to be constantly wondering when Shivers will appear. I can't quite decide whether I think it's a nice ending to his arc or not, that he's fallen, but not so far as some might think. Or whether I'd like to see him do more. Has Joe said he'll ever return to him as a POV? I like Joe's style but it can be frustrating having so many stoic characters at times :P He'll never get another POV according to Joe. No character will get two books w/ a POV (at least as of now...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First of My Name Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 He'll never get another POV according to Joe. No character will get two books w/ a POV (at least as of now...)Shame. I hope he'll return though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 He'll never get another POV according to Joe. No character will get two books w/ a POV (at least as of now...) Logen and Shivers are just so damn compelling and well drawn. I could seen them as a more dour and grim version of Butch and Sundance or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. (meaning TEAM THEM UP!) I firmly hope that we haven't truly seen the last of those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Logen and Shivers are just so damn compelling and well drawn. I could seen them as a more dour and grim version of Butch and Sundance or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. I firmly hope that we haven't truly seen the last of those two. It's not that they won't show up again, just that they won't get another POV. I like that decision. You know what's going on in their heads from the 100's of pages already read in their heads, so seeing them from another POV builds the character in ways that another POV simply couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It's not that they won't show up again, just that they won't get another POV. I like that decision. You know what's going on in their heads from the 100's of pages already read in their heads, so seeing them from another POV builds the character in ways that another POV simply couldn't. If Lord Grimdark revisits Midderland and/or the Circle of the world, Logen and Shivers would be a definite target for Bayaz and /or Calder. If they are on Bayaz's radar...then they would be on Glokta's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 They aren't big enough for Bayaz to care about. Logan was useful for the spirit talking, but they're gone (or at least going) now so there's no real use for him. Glokta might care slightly more, but as long as they don't upset the great war they're irrelevant. I was under the impression Logan's story was done. He's made as much peace with the side of himself that wants to kill everything, and the side of him that wants give into that as can be expected. What more is there to do? He's had a family, and brought it to a place of stability. Given the opportunity to walk away from 'the scores,' and took it. To go on It'd just be retreading old ground, with a character that is definitely getting on in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 They aren't big enough for Bayaz to care about. Logan was useful for the spirit talking, but they're gone (or at least going) now so there's no real use for him. Glokta might care slightly more, but as long as they don't upset the great war they're irrelevant. I was under the impression Logan's story was done. He's made as much peace with the side of himself that wants to kill everything, and the side of him that wants give into that as can be expected. What more is there to do? He's had a family, and brought it to a place of stability. Given the opportunity to walk away from 'the scores,' and took it. To go on It'd just be retreading old ground, with a character that is definitely getting on in years. Bayaz seems like the petty type for whom revenge is always on the table. Has Lord Grimdark ever indicated Logen's age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Somewhere else it was estimated/quoted that Logen is around 40 in the trilogy and mid-fifties in Red Country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Bayaz seems like the petty type for whom revenge is always on the table. Has Lord Grimdark ever indicated Logen's age? Revenge for what? He only deals w/ people insofar that it's benefitting him in the war against the eaters. He's lived over 1,000 years, why would he possibly care about revenge around someone who will live 20-50 years. It's beneath him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Has Lord Grimdark ever indicated Logen's age? In another thread he stated that Logan is around 50 years old at the beginning of Red Country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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