Bakker XXV: A Few Questions

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I figured that he "learned" some of the Gnosis without having actually spoken it. All the theory and whatnot, without having spoken the words to give him a mark of damnation.

The Gnosis is like orgasm, and Akka had gotten Inrau all the way up to it but then Inrau started really thinking about baseball and decided not to go on with it. So, he had never burst his own cherry, so to speak, but he knew enough to be able to do it later in the heat of the moment, and that's what he did.

Your user name is perfect for that post! A serious complement, because I think that the best answer. And only a wise fool could explain it so perfect.

[Anatúrinbor]

Wait, is this true??? LOL I've re-read the 1st trilogy 2 times but the most recent was stilla few years ago....how could I have missed this? wowow I feel dumb.

Don't know how much of this is in the books, but from Bakker's post on Three Seas,

The Rape of Omindalea: Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire. Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825- 1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir. - The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a consonantal alphabet, c.835.

There is a lot of interesting info in that whole thread, but it's possible that he changed his mind on some things since then.

[SilentRoamer]

Seems weird that one of Kellhus ancestors was called "Two-Hearts". Maybe that's how Kellhus ripped his heart out, maybe it was a second heart which he has due to his Nonmen ancestry? Not promoting this as truth I just think its interesting to think about.

Anyone know why that Anasurimbor was called "two hearts"? I wonder if this as not in fact a physical reference rather than referencing matters of the heart (pardon the pun.)

I cant shake the feeling that Kellhus is the final product of some sort of long game of the Consult. Like the ultimate product of the Tekne raised on a diet of Qirri?

[Latan]

He is called Twoheart because he is the scion of two races, the Nonmen and Human. Something unheard of in human history although not I Nonmen history.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Crackpot - the first apocalypse didnt occur, its a myth and propaganda designed to propogate the "second apocalypsev" starring seswatha as the ringmaster anf great swindler.

Edit : stupid fucking phone

[SkiesOfAzel]

I hadn't visited the board for some time and from what i read here i seem to have missed some great insights to the mysteries of the series. UnJon thank you, Your rectum theory has opened my eyes! Time for a new sig ;).

Crackpot - the first apocalypse didnt occur, its a myth and propaganda designed to propogate the "second apocalypsev" starring seswatha as the ringmaster anf great swindler.

Edit : stupid fucking phone

That would be fun, but even the Consult seems to think it happened...

As for Kellhus becoming insane during the Circumfixion, it's an interesting hint but we have to keep in mind that Bakker loves to troll us. The synopsis part of the books breaks the fourth wall, in the sense that he and not his characters is directly speaking to the reader. So the laws of his universe don't apply here, and Kellhus is measured according to the established perception of the actual world. Till this event Kellhus is the only character in the book that follows a mechanistic approach to interpret the Bakker universe like we would do in his place, so in our eyes he is the only sane person in this world. When Kellhus becomes a believer he abandons logic (causality) as the tool to explain the world's rules, thus in our eyes he abandons sanity, which means he should be considered insane.

Another example of Scott trolling us can be found in the JE, when Mimara is thinking that Soma is not a man. Most took this to mean that he was an eunuch, but the comment was not about gender ;). I also think that the fact he constantly calls Mimara an Anasurimbor during important parts of the books is likewise literal, a hint that she is an actual Anasurimbor by blood from her mother's side, thus eligible to fulfill the Kelmonian prophecy.

I keep reading that most of you expect Kellhus to become the No-God. I am not so sure about that. I also don't see Kellhus seducing Esmi, magic wombs etc as a plot device. The only plot device i see is fate:

It seems to me that Anagke, which btw means need in greek, is always trying to lead the world to a certain predefined conclusion through a certain predefined path. If you factor time, i'd describe it as something resembling a spire. It's pretty obvious that events constantly repeat themselves, and while the actual people may change, the roles they assume seem to be constant. There is a wizard that tries to prevent the apocalypse, an emperor that tries to help but ultimately dies, an empress that is in love with the wizard, and the child of the wizard and the empress that is used to create/summon the No God. The same kind of repetitions can be observed even on a smaller scale, like in the case of Cnaiur/Serwa, Moe/Serwe.

During the first trilogy and before Kellhus becomes a believer himself, he does some things that surprise him, and while he tries to rationalize them after the fact, they are uncharacteristic of him. He feels pity for Serwe, his spares Cnaiur, he saves the day by blurting a prophecy about punishing the Shrial Knights. He also seduces Esmenet, not to procreate as he tells himself (he is unaware of the genetic incompatibility between him and mankind at the time) but because he likes her. Sure, you can take his arguments about her intellect at face value, but the truth is that's how attraction works. We unconsciously search for the best possible genes to pass to our children.

Thus Kellhus isn't the prophet, he is the emperor. Achamian is the wizard, and Esmenet has to be the empress as fate dictated. During the second trilogy he seems to be aware of this and attempting to seek the road of least resistance that would allow him to change fate's trajectory according to his designs. I believe he goes as far as correcting some deviations when he sends Mimara to Aka. Scott trolls us again when Mimara remarks that the child in her womb is her mother's and Aka's child. So i don't think Kellhus intends to become the No God, he seems to know that his fate is to die with the Great Ordeal, and that's why he is preparing Proyas for a change in leadership (to his former mentor) in the WLW. Following the same logic, he must know that Mimara's child is destined to become the No God and that the Great Ordeal is destined to fail. So i am pretty sure that whatever he has set in motion will come to pass after those events, meaning that he doesn't intend to prevent the second apocalypse, just influence its outcome which will certainly reshape the world.

I would also like to share my views about the "magic" womb. I frankly don't see why some of you call it that, or treat it with contempt, it's just genetics. Selective inbreeding in Dunyain has isolated the Non Man genes to the point that Kellhus is incompatible with humans. If Esmenet is indeed an Anasurimbor descendant she also has Non Man blood, thus she is genetically compatible with him and their children might also be compatible with Non Men, making Madness's theory about Serwe pretty valid and logical in my view.

An interesting fact about the Dunyain program is that it's centered around genetic manipulation, which is also the Inchies favorite hobby. There are more parallels between the Inchies and the Dunyain, but this one is the most ironic, especially if you consider the fact that the Dunyain program has the potential to unmake what the Inchies did to the Non Men.

[Faint]

I would also like to share my views about the "magic" womb. I frankly don't see why some of you call it that . . .

I call it that because your alternative ("fate") is simply a catch-all for bad plot construction. It is the low form of deus ex machina.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I call it that because your alternative ("fate") is simply a catch-all for bad plot construction. It is the low form of deus ex machina.

I don't propose fate as an alternative to the magic womb, i propose it as the central force behind the story. You can call it a loop if you think it sounds better or even a recycling of souls, but i think by now it's fairly obvious that certain events keep repeating themselves, and there is a driving force behinds this phenomenon. Anagke is already a part of the world so it seems a good fit.

Btw, deus ex machina isn't an appropriate term to describe this since if i am right, it's not a device meant to resolve some problem with the plot, it's a central part of the plot itself. It's also not something that suddenly pops up, we know about the past, we are given enough clues that it repeats itself and we learn fairly quickly that causality doesn't work in this world.This wouldn't be fantasy if there weren't any elements that don't follow the mundane. The fact alone that the entire series begins with a prophesy should clue everyone in that fate is a big part of the series.

I'd also like to clarify that in my view fate was what moved Kellhus to act on his attraction to Esmi, which was uncharacteristic of him since the problems this could create outweighted the benefits, and not what caused the attraction. I will edit my previous post to reflect that.

[EDIT] And as for the magic womb itself, Kellhus couldn't possibly know that she was the only one that could bear his children when he decided to seduce her, so this wasn't a plot device to make Kellhus and Aka enemies. The "magic" part isn't magic at all and can be explained with genetics.

[lokisnow]

the world conspires... no urn is so cracked as fate... circle is a spiral... &c, &c.

btw, there's threads on the other place that deal with our numerous explorations of the _Mimara-The-Last-Scion_ thought trees but I don't think this detail has come up before: Sarcellus protecting Esmenet in the first trilogy would be consistent with Soma protecting Mimara in the second.

What's interesting about that is this. Maithanet knew Sarcellus was a skin spy. Maithanet knew he had to get rid of Sarcellus some how, but in a way that the skin spy could not simply abandoned the role of Sarcellus and take a new face. So he eliminates this spy/threat by sending Sarcellus away on a high status pretext, a request that could not be refused: He's head of the royal guard of Maithanet's envoy to the holy war.

So given this clever bit of politicking on Maithanet's part, did he also anticipate Esmenet and Sarcellus encountering one another? If so, is that partly why he sent Sarcellus, knowing there would be no better way to protect the Last Scion then by sending a skin spy her way?

This is presuming that Moenghus knows all about fate, circles, spires and spirals, has discovered the Last Scion and alerted Maithanet to her significance.

Why would Moenghus bother to seek out and discover The Last Scion? Well if only the genetics of the anasurimbor line can breed with the Dunyain, he'd need a woman of the Last Scion to reproduce. Otherwise, Maithanet and his "drowned" siblings would disprove Skies of Azel's theory.

Esmenet does refer to Maithanet as brother in the second series doesn't she? heh, hiding in plain sight (and she doesn't even know it!).

[SkiesOfAzel]

the world conspires... no urn is so cracked as fate... circle is a spiral... &c, &c.

btw, there's threads on the other place that deal with our numerous explorations of the _Mimara-The-Last-Scion_ thought trees but I don't think this detail has come up before: Sarcellus protecting Esmenet in the first trilogy would be consistent with Soma protecting Mimara in the second.

What's interesting about that is this. Maithanet knew Sarcellus was a skin spy. Maithanet knew he had to get rid of Sarcellus some how, but in a way that the skin spy could not simply abandoned the role of Sarcellus and take a new face. So he eliminates this spy/threat by sending Sarcellus away on a high status pretext, a request that could not be refused: He's head of the royal guard of Maithanet's envoy to the holy war.

So given this clever bit of politicking on Maithanet's part, did he also anticipate Esmenet and Sarcellus encountering one another? If so, is that partly why he sent Sarcellus, knowing there would be no better way to protect the Last Scion then by sending a skin spy her way?

This is presuming that Moenghus knows all about fate, circles, spires and spirals, has discovered the Last Scion and alerted Maithanet to her significance.

Why would Moenghus bother to seek out and discover The Last Scion? Well if only the genetics of the anasurimbor line can breed with the Dunyain, he'd need a woman of the Last Scion to reproduce. Otherwise, Maithanet and his "drowned" siblings would disprove Skies of Azel's theory.

Esmenet does refer to Maithanet as brother in the second series doesn't she? heh, hiding in plain sight (and she doesn't even know it!).

Yeah, some of those posts were made by me :P. I'd also toyed with the idea that Mimara was Moe's child and even posted about it but there is no real evidence pointing in this direction. Besides, Kellhus looks so much like his father that Esmenet would have probably remembered/guessed something, not to mention that Mimara's father was supposedly a Kidruhil and Nansur have a very different look than the Norsirai.

The Sarcellus theory is interesting and fits with the idea that Kellhus walked on conditioned ground. What doesn't fit is the fact that the Consult was the reason Esmi abandoned her home and went to look for Aka, and while the Consult isn't the most reliable source i do believe that the reason they were spying her was Achamian and not any knowledge about her heritage. So it's logical to assume that the reason the Consult was following her was the obvious one, and that if Sarcellus wasn't available, they'd send someone else to spy on her. It seems more probable that Maithanet just wanted to get rid of Sarcellus and that's why he sent him on a very dangerous trip with a record high mortality rate ;).

And i don't believe that it's impossible for a woman without NonMan blood to produce a half Dunyain child, just highly improbable. Still, little brother Maithanet would be a nice twist.

[Happy Ent]

Nice post, sOfA. Welcome to the board.

[Happy Ent]

Edit : stupid fucking phone

This is one of the most overlooked problems of the tekne, actually, and one that took the Inchoroi eons to cope with after their crash.

TELL MEEEE, WHAT DO YOU SEX.

FUCK. I MEANT SILMARILLION.

SEE. WHAT DO YOU SEE.

DAMN AUTOCORRECT.

[Castel]

You just know that the crash was caused by the over-eager Inchie autocorrect "fixing" the word "duck".

[Anatúrinbor]

What's the Last Scion?

[SkiesOfAzel]

The Anasurimbor of the Celmomian prophesy. There are some clues that Kellhus isn't a direct descendant of Celmomas (The Anasurimbor child in Isual is Ganrelka's bastard) and that his line survived through his female heir.

[jurble]

Matrilineal descent? Absurd. How does being Ganrelka's bastard's descendant not make him a descendent of Celmomas? Celmomas had several sons and Ganrelka was one of 'em. And only Nau-Cayuti had a non-paternity event.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I the think SkiesOfAzel brings up some great points on fate as the major plot line. But, there is a bunch missing too. Who's are Nau-Cayuti,who steals into Golgoterrath? And I'm sure you guys can think of more. But, that being said, I think he is on to something. The only deviation I see to this is that kellhus see it too and will trick fate. I don't think he's sending mirmara to akka to make sure there is a baby no-god made. No, he's trying to destroy the consult not help them out. Bakker just said that if he dies tommorow nobody would be upset about the conclusion of TUC. So, I take that all these storylines will be wrapped up. Maybe, maybe not.

I had the same feeling that there was no way this story-arc could be completed in one more book. I figured on the 3rd series being named The Second Apocalypse. But I was told that I was mistaken in that. So who the hell knows.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Matrilineal descent? Absurd. How does being Ganrelka's bastard's descendant not make him a descendent of Celmomas? Celmomas had several sons and Ganrelka was one of 'em. And only Nau-Cayuti had a non-paternity event.

I've searched but the only thing i've found about Ganrelka is that he was Celmomas's heir and was born 15 years after him. This makes it more probable that he was actually a younger brother than a son, although of course it's still possible Celmomas was playing come in to my castle at 14.

If i've missed textual evidence that Ganrelka is Cel's son, please tell me were to look. The next best thing would be a birth date for Celmomas's wife.

[EDIT] Lol i just noticed your sig, it's epic!

[matt b]

I've searched but the only thing i've found about Ganrelka is that he was Celmomas's heir and was born 15 years after him. This makes it more probable that he was actually a younger brother than a son, although of course it's still possible Celmomas was playing come in to my castle at 14.

If i've missed textual evidence that Ganrelka is Cel's son, please tell me were to look. The next best thing would be a birth date for Celmomas's wife.

Apparently, the Prince of Nothing wiki says that Ganrelka was Celmomas' son, but the little Encyclopedia in the back of TTT merely says, "successor." So it's inconclusive at this point. Son or brother sounds equally plausible to me.

I had the same feeling that there was no way this story-arc could be completed in one more book. I figured on the 3rd series being named The Second Apocalypse. But I was told that I was mistaken in that. So who the hell knows.

The Second Apocalypse is the name for the entire series, The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor, and the As-Yet-To-Be-Revealed third series.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Yea I know. Just if these arcs are wrapped up it just don't make sense to me. I've heard another 20 yr jump to the next series. So, mirmara's baby could be "Nau-Cayuti" 20 yes from the end of TAE. But, then that don't fall in line with Bakker's statement. I'm so fucking confused now.