lokisnow Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I just watched Jodorowsky's Dune today, as he says of himself in the movie, Jodorowsky's wasn't really making Dune, he was raping Frank Herbert (but with love), he was making his own Dune-thing. In any event, I thought of Bakker when Jodorowsky outlined his idea for the Conception of Paul: Leto is castrated, and thus cannot have a child. He falls in love with the Lady Jessica, it is a pure spiritual love, a cosmic love. The Lady Jessica takes a drop of Leto's Blood and transmutes it into Semen (ala transmuting the water of death into the water of life) and uses his Blood/Semen to impregnate herself with Leto's seed and conceive Paul. Paul is a mutant hybrid immaculate conception who will become the Messiah. The film ends with Feyd Rautha (as played by Mick Jagger, btw, Orson Welles was signed as Baron Harkonnen and Salvador Dali was signed as the Emperor Shaddam) killing Paul in their final dual. But Paul is transmuted into everything, and speaks through the mouths of all the witnesses that Feyd cannot kill him because he is all things and in all things. Sounds like a likely source for Dunyain (they are conceived by blood!) and that Kellhus dies at the end, only to become all things and all things become him. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Off topic, whoever purchased the White-Luck Warrior, did anyone happen to have this cover? http://s27.postimg.org/t4eewl8hv/9781590208168.jpg I wish my version's cover was that cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 More like we find the Kellhus virus has infected the damnation machine - Kellhus is quite dead and the connection between the individual with a sword in him and the thing that rampages through the damnation network is about as connected as the torches on the wall in Akka's dream. Ascension crashes into crass and overwhelming power grab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 *nods* Kellhus is a virus, it is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 As for Kellhus becoming insane during the Circumfixion, it's an interesting hint but we have to keep in mind that Bakker loves to troll us. The synopsis part of the books breaks the fourth wall, in the sense that he and not his characters is directly speaking to the reader. I think the synopses are a summation of 'what we know so far', and not the author telling us what's true and what's not in the story. They can certainly be misleading, the same way the glossary contains misleading info according to Bakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I have mentioned it before but the descripstion of Sils sheild: Paraphrasing " Two S curved against each other touching at the top hooked over an upside down VDoes this mean that Kuniuric uses the Latin alphabet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Sky has cracked into potter's shards,Fire sweeps the compass of heaven very much a screaming comes across the sky. ripoff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 And then there was the next verse, which dealt in the many ways greenhouse-grown bananas can be consumed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Ok guys a few thoughts on the Heart in the Anus theory. I have just finished TWP as part of my re-read. Heart scene is so bloody vague! I stand by my earlier opinion that it cant be sleight of hand. I think there is far too much exposition and Kellhus POV in that scene to attribute this to sleight of hand rather than some Miracle of the Gods/Cishaurim Psukhari trick. Also the whole Caraskand scenes show an increasingly emotional Kellhus and in the end I think Kellhus had an emotional breakdown on the Circumfix - I think its fairly obvious. What I don't get is how he brandished Serwes heart but I do not think it was sleight of hand. He is wrapped entirely in white linen and then "with a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs." I think that is pretty clear where he pulled the heart from, maybe we don't have a how but we have where the heart was pulled from. There is no anus mentioned anywhere. It also seems to tie in with the Cishaurim coming to him in Caraskand and telling him about "The Thousandfold thought" and "The shortest path" before letting Kellhus kill him - otherwise what was the purpose? Really looking forward to TTT now! I enjoyed tDTCB and TWP much more on a second read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I just watched Jodorowsky's Dune today, as he says of himself in the movie, Jodorowsky's wasn't really making Dune, he was raping Frank Herbert (but with love), he was making his own Dune-thing.In any event, I thought of Bakker when Jodorowsky outlined his idea for the Conception of Paul:Leto is castrated, and thus cannot have a child. He falls in love with the Lady Jessica, it is a pure spiritual love, a cosmic love. The Lady Jessica takes a drop of Leto's Blood and transmutes it into Semen (ala transmuting the water of death into the water of life) and uses his Blood/Semen to impregnate herself with Leto's seed and conceive Paul. Paul is a mutant hybrid immaculate conception who will become the Messiah.The film ends with Feyd Rautha (as played by Mick Jagger, btw, Orson Welles was signed as Baron Harkonnen and Salvador Dali was signed as the Emperor Shaddam) killing Paul in their final dual. But Paul is transmuted into everything, and speaks through the mouths of all the witnesses that Feyd cannot kill him because he is all things and in all things.Sounds like a likely source for Dunyain (they are conceived by blood!) and that Kellhus dies at the end, only to become all things and all things become him. :D He should just make the damn thing now. It sounds hilariously awesome and insane. (though honestly an actual, good, Dune movie would be cool too -- after reading it not too long ago, I'm kind of amazed no one has tried again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Does this mean that Kuniuric uses the Latin alphabet? Pretty sure Kuniuric is Sheyic for 'binary'. Pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 What do people think of the mini-series with William Hurt? Serious question. I have no idea who it was received; only that it exists.I watched it when it aired. It was decent but not great. Production values were pretty good for the era, the writing was about typical of non-HBO television of the era (ie, nothing special, not the quality of a feature), and the acting was about the same level. It was made at the same time Sopranos was revolutionizing television, so a lot of the beneficial changes to the industry hadn't yet matriculated through the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buff daddy Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 What do people think of the mini-series with William Hurt? Serious question. I have no idea who it was received; only that it exists. When it first came out, I liked it a lot. When I tried rewatching it a few years ago I found it sorta boring and would rather watch the Lynch movie if given a choice. Baron Harkonnen was probably the best thing in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt b Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 (though honestly an actual, good, Dune movie would be cool too -- after reading it not too long ago, I'm kind of amazed no one has tried again) Oh, it's not for lack of trying! There's been some version of a new Dune movie "in development" for a long, long time. At least the last decade, probably longer. It's one of those projects that just sort of exists out in the ether and never gets any closer to actually getting filmed. What do people think of the mini-series with William Hurt? Serious question. I have no idea who it was received; only that it exists. It's a far more faithful adaptation than Lynch's, but the poor production quality and acting really drag it down. I may have enjoyed the Children of Dune mini-series more, probably just because that was the first time seeing that material filmed, but it's been awhile since I've seen either. Both are worth checking out for the big Dune fan (I'd take either mini-series over one of the KJA's abominations), but casual fans should probably pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Hey guys, I re-read TWP last few chapters again last night. I am now convinced that Kellhus plucked Serwes heart from his own chest using Cishaurim magic. It is also worth noting that the blood dripping is described as "seemed to crack the tiles" which speaks of even more ambiguity, but the flaming of the heart is pretty explicit. There are so many clues to the emotional toll the Holy War is having. It starts where Esmenet is near the top of a mountain and Kellhus gasps when he thinks she might fall. He actually analyses this in his own POV - can post an extract if needed. He then goes on to break down on the circumfix with Serwe. I think it can be assumed he has an emotional breakdown. He has spent his entire life rationalising and conditioning everything around him - when the emotion finally comes I think it comes in a torrent. Elezearas also states that he saw him rip his heart from his fucking chest - he rationalises this after the fact, or tries to. Really looking forward to seeing how this opinion holds as I read TTT. Interested to hear the regular posters opinions on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 It's not magic. He wears a chorae after that. He'd be salted right away if it was magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Oh, it's not for lack of trying! There's been some version of a new Dune movie "in development" for a long, long time. At least the last decade, probably longer. It's one of those projects that just sort of exists out in the ether and never gets any closer to actually getting filmed. It's a far more faithful adaptation than Lynch's, but the poor production quality and acting really drag it down. I may have enjoyed the Children of Dune mini-series more, probably just because that was the first time seeing that material filmed, but it's been awhile since I've seen either. Both are worth checking out for the big Dune fan (I'd take either mini-series over one of the KJA's abominations), but casual fans should probably pass. I haven't seen the miniseries (I've seen short sequences...I can tell I wouldn't like it), but I would murder for a new HBO miniseries of Dune going through books 1-3. Modern day effects could pull it off fairly easily, I think, and the new prestige of television could allow the material to have the resources and be to treated with the respect it deserves. Also, Shogun. HBO needs to do a new Shogun miniseries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I've been thinking about all the cursing that Psatma did while fucking the WLW,"Cursed be the false—the deceivers of men! Cursed be the Aspect-Emperor! "This is Kellhus."Cursed be whore!" . . . "Cursed be she who lies with men for gold over seed, for power over obedience, for lust over love!"Esmenet."Cursed be the homicide, the murderer, he who lies in wait to slay his brother!"Kelmomas."Cursed be the thief!" Nannaferi shrieked. "For he who dines on the fortune of others is a bringer of famine!"Not sure about this one."Cursed!" Nannaferi cried. "Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road!"Is this Fanayal? Or a hint that Moe, who lead the Dunyain Cishaurim is still alive? This is also the only one that she repeats twice. Or is she just speaking generally and not referring to specific people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 all three lines of inquiry in volume V involve cannibalism, NB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Interested to hear the regular posters opinions on this? See my post #288 in Bakker XXII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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