The Brightfyre theory

[Hippocras]

Then I am not sure what to say about your theory of Ashara being Septa Lemore. Even the word crackpot does not do it justice.

you know you give off a serious troll vibe right?

It is not *my* theory. It IS however a theory that has far more text basis. First of all, we have actually MET Lemore. Chances are we will never meet Jyana. We also know for a fact that Lemore is not who she says she is. Second, The descriptions of hair and personality (neither Meera nor Jojen has anything like Ashara's personality) match perfectly, including using the same words. Several other points, including the very interesting possible Alfred Hitchcock reference in the name Lemore (Les Morts) a movie that includes a woman who supposedly threw herself from a tower to her death but reappeared later in the film under a different name. It is still a theory and not confirmed, but it is FAR stronger.

However, this is not the thread for that discussion. Please go to those threads to discuss Ashara Dayne theories.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Another hint to Aegon being fake is in Dany's last chapter in CoK. When Belwas and Whitebeard show up at Illyrio's request to bring Dany back to Pentos. Dany asks them what they want with her, and Belwas answers, 'He wants the dragons, he wants their mother, he wants you.'

So the first and most important thing Illyrio wants is the dragons. Not dany, but the dragons...Why? because he wants to legitimize his son Aegon, he doesnt give an F about Dany, all he wants is what she brings with her, her name and her dragons, just noticed this on the re-read. :) He wouldnt send 3 ships to bring her back unless he really wants her for something. He wants to use her for his own purposes.

[Ser Eric]

Yeah, sorry but none of that is proof and nor does it make any logical sense at all for Ashara to be with Aegon. Secondly, Ashara's eyes are very striking and Tyrion who notices quite a LOT about her never bothers to mention them despite him noticing Aegon's eyes.

[joluoto2]

1. If Aegon is real, she is with him and has been EVER SINCE HE WAS SWAPPED, in other words, she had the real prince in hiding during the sack of KL. Then when she heard about the sack, she brought the prince into hiding elsewhere, pretending to be dead herself. If Aegon is fake, she may, like Connington, believe he is real, and again, have been with him since he was a baby. Alternately he may actually be her son by Aerys, if the Aerys rape theory turns out to be true.

2. There is zero confirmation she had a Stark lover. She TURNED TO a Stark because of her dishonouring, ie - for help. The wording is meant to mislead you to believe that Ashara was Jon's mother. That is why it was ambiguous. In reality what was really said was that Ashara was dishonoured in some way by someone, and turned to a Stark for help.

3. We don't actually know she lost her child. This is part of the same rumour that says she died. However there are two other possibilities: First, her child may have been the one in the swap, murdered by Gregor. Or two, her child may be with her right now, believing he is Prince Aegon. Or even a third remote possibility: that her child is Daenerys, who Barristan said has her eyes.

Why would she have been with Aegon ever since he was swapped? That would place her in King's Landing during the war, and there's ZERO evidence for that. Instead everyone seem to think she was in Starfall (since that's the place where she supposedly commited suicide)

Yes, I know the wording is weird, and it could well be that she never had a Stark lover. But Barristan isn't really great with wording anyways.

Actually if you really want to go the crackpot route with Ashara's child being alive, it would probably be Allyria Dayne (who's supposed to be her sister, but considering her age (unmarried) might actually be her daughter, however it's crackpot, once again no evidence).

There's no evidence pointing to Ashara being alive or her child being alive. There's no evidence for any other Aegon theory either, or any evidence that Aegon is real. However the theory that he's Illyrio and Serra's son carry a little more water than any other theory (would explain Illyrio's involvement).

[King of Winters]

Are you trolling? I mean seriously. The theory is WEAK! It talks about Jojen's green eyes. Guess what? Meera's are ALSO GREEN. It is complete fabrication that his eyes turned green because of greenseeing. Ashara's partners? Seriously? I have no doubt they ARE important, but not because Ashara herself told Meera the story. etc. etc. There is not a single strong point related to this theory.

You do realise that Jojen's eyes turned green after he tried to breath mud like Meera and his father and after he recovered his eyes turned greens. Now you have to ask yourself, the Crannogmen have been adapting to breathing mud for hundreds of years, if not thousands, so why couldn't Jojen breath mud like all the rest?

[Hippocras]

Why would she have been with Aegon ever since he was swapped? That would place her in King's Landing during the war, and there's ZERO evidence for that. Instead everyone seem to think she was in Starfall (since that's the place where she supposedly commited suicide)

Yes, I know the wording is weird, and it could well be that she never had a Stark lover. But Barristan isn't really great with wording anyways.

Actually if you really want to go the crackpot route with Ashara's child being alive, it would probably be Allyria Dayne (who's supposed to be her sister, but considering her age (unmarried) might actually be her daughter, however it's crackpot, once again no evidence).

There's no evidence pointing to Ashara being alive or her child being alive. There's no evidence for any other Aegon theory either, or any evidence that Aegon is real. However the theory that he's Illyrio and Serra's son carry a little more water than any other theory (would explain Illyrio's involvement).

No it would not place her in KL at all. It would mean the real Aegon was brought to Starfall when she left KL mysteriously, and that is when the swap took place. If Aegon is real, the swap happened, obviously, at some point before the sack of KL. Possibly quite a bit before.

Allyria is a possibility also, yes.

Illyrio's involvement is indeed very hard to explain. I don't think Aegon is his son though, I mean it is possible, I just don't really think that has much story value. Other ideas could be interesting. I like to think Varys and Illyrio may be part of a new Band of Nine conspiracy, and Illyrio actually wants something in Essos in return for his help. Like a Kingship of Braavos or Volantis or something.

[Hippocras]

You do realise that Jojen's eyes turned green after he tried to breath mud like Meera and his father and after he recovered his eyes turned greens. Now you have to ask yourself, the Crannogmen have been adapting to breathing mud for hundreds of years, if not thousands, so why couldn't Jojen breath mud like all the rest?

The theory is weak, and this is not the thread for it, and Meera's eyes are also green.

[King of Winters]

The theory is weak, and this is not the thread for it, and Meera's eyes are also green.

She was born with green eyes, Jojen was not.

And have you even read the theory fully? If you have then you'd know it has more evidence than Ashara=Lemore.

[joluoto2]

No it would not place her in KL at all. It would mean the real Aegon was brought to Starfall when she left KL mysteriously, and that is when the swap took place. If Aegon is real, the swap happened, obviously, at some point before the sack of KL. Possibly quite a bit before.

And when would the real Aegon be taken to Starfall? If Varys and Illyrio just wanted Aegon safe in Essos, Starfall is the wrong way. Also to put things in perspective. When Barristan talk about reasons for her suicide he mentions:

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well"

Now here's where the Ashara was raped theory imho falls apart. Why would Barristan think she cared about the "man who dishonored her" if it was a rape? To me it sounds like she was having an affair with someone (though admittedly it doesn't have to be a Stark).

[Veltigar]

Before the thread is locked, let me make an addition to the OP with an analysis from TSS.

This thread will never be locked! It will live on forever :p

snip

I'm sorry we have been ignoring your post so far, it was just to much on topic :p

But we'll fix that now :D

You have made a good write up of this point and including it would make part of the OP less cluncky (we would be able to cut some of it out). But before I add it I'll like to give my opinion and hear that of others.

We already noted the similarity of this Brightflame-Blackfyre reconciliation with the events happened in TSS to yield the reconciliation of Lady Rohanne Webber (who has the spider as her sigil hence The Spider Lady) and Ser Eustace Osgrey (who was a loyal supporter of the Black Dragon in the First Blackfyre Rebellion).

He [ser Eustace Osgrey] wanted a castle with a lion on the gatehouse, but all he got were graves among the blackberries.

Ser Eustace Osgrey fought for the Black Dragon hoping that he would restore him his ancestral castle Coldmoat which still has the chequy lion of House Osgrey on its gatehouse. However, all his sons were killed and he buried them among the blackberry trees. This is obviously House Blackfyre going extinct in the male line. Recall that blackberries are highly associated with the Blackfyres.

This part is an excellent write up, so if I edit this in I can take some of the clunkier stuff down.

I do have a question about the bolded part. Could you expand it a little further? I remember that there was some talk about blackberries, but I don't recall it being that clear?

One of the gates of the KL is called the Lion Gate. I think the above quote shows how the Black Dragon failed to take the IT and KL through rebellion. Note that Ser Eustace and Lady Rohanne married and Ser Eustace gained his heart’s desire by this marriage, not a battle (except the trial by combat, which was designed by Lady Webber to get rid of her most serious suitor being Ser Lucas Longinch).

"You would not know, of course. Coldmoat and Standfast were reconciled after your battle. Lady Rohanne begged leave of old Ser Eustace to cross his land and visit Addam’s grave, and he granted her that right. She knelt before the blackberries and began to weep, and he was so moved that he went to comfort her. They spent the whole night talking of young Addam and my lady’s noble father. Lord Wyman and Ser Eustace were fast friends, until the Blackfyre Rebellion. His lordship and my lady were wed this morning, by our good Septon Sefton. Eustace Osgrey is the lord of Coldmoat, and his chequy lion flies beside the Webber spider on every tower and wall."

I think this trial by combat meant to remove the suitor is a wonderful representation of the Wot5K to remove all the claimants to the IT for clearing the way for fAegon.

The Lion gate is a pretty minor reference. But I personally dig it.

Now, It's been a while since I read tSS. So, I'll take your word for it that Lady Webber engineerd the clash between Lucas and Duncan. However, I don't think it's particularly resembling tWot5K, especially since Varys in aGoT wasn't keen on Lannister and Stark clashing so soon. It is on the other hand a very nice Aerion reference and because of her spider sigil it is a nice crossover.

I mean think about it this way. Lady Spider engineered an official fight/TBC between two knights, just like Aerion did. And it gets even better, since both participants were about 7 feet tall. It's perhaps a stretch, but is this a 'Trial by Seven' reference?

Also as an aside: the castle has a chequy lion on the gatehouse. This might be a reference to a Blackfyre and Brightflame match. Look at this definition from wikipedia

Adjective[edit]

A checkered flag

checkered (comparative more checkered, superlative most checkered)

1. Divided into squares, or into light and dark patches.

   That is a checkered tablecloth.

one lion with light (Brightflame) and dark (Blackfyre) patches!

So we know that the Septon who carried out this wedding is related to the bride side (The Spider Lady). I think this is a supporting evidence for my theory that the High Septon (High Sparrow), who will most likely be the person to crown fAegon in Oldtown, is related to Varys the Spider (not by blood but most likely he is an agent of Varys).

I don't see any connection between HS and Varys. I think the HS is what he claims to be, a dour religious fanatic who wants the Faith to be the most important thing in the Realm (although I do think that he'll eventually end up supporting Faegon).

However Septon Sefton might be a stand in for Varys himself. He's related to Lady Spider (Serra) and he's the reason the wedding came to be (at least in this theory, he's the one that set out to find Illyrio).

Septon Sefton has very interesting comments about the power structure in KL.

"Make no mistake, ’tis Lord Rivers who rules us, with his spells and spies. There is no one to oppose him. Prince Maekar sulks at Summerhall, nursing his grievances against his royal brother. Prince Rhaegal is as meek as he is mad, and his children are . . . well, children. Friends and favorites of Lord Rivers fill every office, the lords of the small council lick his hand, and this new Grand Maester is as steeped in sorcery as he is. The Red Keep is garrisoned by Raven’s Teeth, and no man sees the king without his leave."

King Aerys I was a bookworm and he left all the ruling to Bloodraven. Tommen as his parallel is not given a chance to have a part in ruling. Bloodraven was the real ruler with his spies and sorceries. I think Cersei’s rule in AFfC is completely manipulated by Varys (the former master of whispers just like Bloodraven and most probably a sorcerer himself as well). The Grand Maester of Aerys was a sorcerer too and Qyburn (who is also the Grand Maester of Cersei all but in name) is also involved in sorcery. Cersei’s Small Council is full of agents and spies.

Explain this a little further, since I'm not sure what you mean here.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

*Brightflame :P

Brightfyre is the term we use for shared Blackfyre/Brightflame heritage of Faegon in this thread ;)

The thing is Aerion was also called Brightfire as well as brightflame.

[Hippocras]

And when would the real Aegon be taken to Starfall? If Varys and Illyrio just wanted Aegon safe in Essos, Starfall is the wrong way. Also to put things in perspective. When Barristan talk about reasons for her suicide he mentions:

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well"

Now here's where the Ashara was raped theory imho falls apart. Why would Barristan think she cared about the "man who dishonored her" if it was a rape? To me it sounds like she was having an affair with someone (though admittedly it doesn't have to be a Stark).

It is certainly all speculation. But I think the original swap, if any swap occurred at all, might have been an agreement between Elia and Ashara, her companion. Ashara left King's Landing at some point after Harrenhal, Barristan said under mysterious circumstances, and while Elia was basically Aerys's hostage. She very possibly gave the Prince to Ashara when she left, swapping in a replacement, in order to get him away from the mad king. Varys may even have told Elia about Aerys's preparations to burn KL with wildfire.

So the initial plan was not to take Aegon to Essos, but simply to get him away from KL in case Aerys did something nasty, like kill Elia's children himself, or burn the whole city to the ground. And the swap, if real, was done with Elia's consent. Taking Aegon to Essos was a decision made later, when the war was over and the King and Rhaegar were dead.

As for Ashara's daughter being stillborn - again, Barristan was not a witness. He is just telling a story he heard. It might be true, or it might be the official story so that noone goes looking for Ashara's child.

As for the rape theory - Barristan's speculation is likely coloured by his own loyalty, and if Ashara was raped, she was also still a Targaryen loyalist in the war. So if he believes she is grieving for him it might be because she is grieving for the death of the Targ dynasty. Maybe. I mean, even he qualifies it by saying "perhaps".

[Mithras]

snip

A minor addition from TSS about the possible demise of Serra.

“His sons paid for his treason with their life’s blood. When he brought their bones home and delivered his daughter to the king’s men for a hostage, his wife threw herself from the top of Standfast tower.”

Ser Eustace brought the bones of his sons back home. He sent his only daughter as a hostage to KL. Then, his wife threw herself to her death. I think there is a similar story about Illyrio, Serra and fAegon with slight differences.

I think Serra refused to carry out this campaign to crown fAegon and depart him. This may be due to a possible prophetic dream in which she saw his death as a result of this affair. So she might have tried to run away with fAegon. But she failed and Illyrio had her hands cut off for stealing his son and her head for treason.

[Veltigar]

The thing is Aerion was also called Brightfire as well as brightflame.

The 'y' matters :p

A minor addition from TSS about the possible demise of Serra.

“His sons paid for his treason with their life’s blood. When he brought their bones home and delivered his daughter to the king’s men for a hostage, his wife threw herself from the top of Standfast tower.”

Ser Eustace brought the bones of his sons back home. He sent his only daughter as a hostage to KL. Then, his wife threw herself to her death. I think there is a similar story about Illyrio, Serra and fAegon with slight differences.

I think Serra refused to carry out this campaign to crown fAegon and depart him. This may be due to a possible prophetic dream in which she saw his death as a result of this affair. So she might have tried to run away with fAegon. But she failed and Illyrio had her hands cut off for stealing his son and her head for treason.

hmmm, I don't see it here. Seems more like an Ashara Dayne reference on the sly.

[Mithras]

This part is an excellent write up, so if I edit this in I can take some of the clunkier stuff down.

I do have a question about the bolded part. Could you expand it a little further? I remember that there was some talk about blackberries, but I don't recall it being that clear?

I remember yolkboy or another poster made an analysis about the blackberries and Blackfyres. I can’t find that thread but here is a quote from ADwD:

“Come, drink with me,” the fat man said. “A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say.” He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey. Tyrion shooed them off with the back of his hand and drank deep. The taste was so cloying that it was all he could do to keep it down. The second cup went down easier, however. Even so, he had no appetite, and when Illyrio offered him a bowl of blackberries in cream he waved it off.

Apart from the association of a Black Dragon loyalist with blackberries in TSS, we have Illyrio drinking blackberry wine and eating creamed blackberries with Tyrion. He says “a scale from the dragon that burned you” while pouring the blackberry wine and I bet this dragon is the Black Dragon.

The Lion gate is a pretty minor reference. But I personally dig it.

Now, It's been a while since I read tSS. So, I'll take your word for it that Lady Webber engineerd the clash between Lucas and Duncan. However, I don't think it's particularly resembling tWot5K, especially since Varys in aGoT wasn't keen on Lannister and Stark clashing so soon. It is on the other hand a very nice Aerion reference and because of her spider sigil it is a nice crossover.

I mean think about it this way. Lady Spider engineered an official fight/TBC between two knights, just like Aerion did. And it gets even better, since both participants were about 7 feet tall. It's perhaps a stretch, but is this a 'Trial by Seven' reference?

Also as an aside: the castle has a chequy lion on the gatehouse. This might be a reference to a Blackfyre and Brightflame match. Look at this definition from wikipedia

one lion with light (Brightflame) and dark (Blackfyre) patches!

There was a very suspicious fire that burned the woods of Ser Eustace in the night Dunk decided to leave Ser Eustace. The Webbers were known to cut trees to create pasture for their cattles. Ser Eustace accused the Spider Lady for this. She claimed that she had nothing to do with this. She said that had the winds changed direction, her crops and fields would have been burnt as well. Ser Eustace claimed that she used sorcery to manipulate the winds and he refused to take his accusation back. The Spider Lady knew the old man very well and it all came down to a trial by combat. Dunk was obviously taller, stronger and younger than Lucas. I think it was worth trying for Lady Webber.

Varys did not want the Wot5K so soon but he wanted chaos and turmoil at some point. So the war was inevitable and it was good assure that no one gets strong enough to end the war.

Ser Lucas was six feet and seven inches and each inch was prouder than the last. His arrogance can be comparable to Aerion’s. Dunk was an inch less than seven feet but that was a while ago in Oldtown and he should have grown a little since then. Lady Webber judged him to be seven feet and I think she was precise. This makes a kind of trial by seven similar to Aerion’s case.

Good find about the checkers representing the union of light and dark patches in parallel to Brightflames and Blackfyres.

I don't see any connection between HS and Varys. I think the HS is what he claims to be, a dour religious fanatic who wants the Faith to be the most important thing in the Realm (although I do think that he'll eventually end up supporting Faegon).

However Septon Sefton might be a stand in for Varys himself. He's related to Lady Spider (Serra) and he's the reason the wedding came to be (at least in this theory, he's the one that set out to find Illyrio).

We will disagree about the nature of High Sparrow but whether consciously or unconsciously, it is almost certain that all the things he did is in benefit of fAegon.

I agree Septon Sefton might be Varys too. He was fat, flatulent, sweated too much and gossiped like hell. All of these traits can be attributed to Varys as well. Varys uses perfume to hide the bad smell. And there is this very interesting bit:

"Don’t drink the wine, ser," Egg whispered to him as they waited with the septon in her audience chamber. The stone floors were covered with sweet-smelling rushes, the walls hung with tapestries of tourney scenes and battles.

Dunk snorted. "She has no need to poison me," he whispered back. "She thinks I’m some great lout with pease porridge between his ears, you mean."

"As it happens, my good-sister likes pease porridge," said Septon Sefton, as he reappeared with a flagon of wine, a flagon of water, and three cups. "Yes, yes, I heard. I’m fat, not deaf."

Haha. Like a master of whispers, he eardrops the conversation. And then he reports almost everything happening in the Realm to Dunk&Egg just like Varys presents his reports to the Small Council.

Explain this a little further, since I'm not sure what you mean here.

This part was to establish more parallels with the power structure in KL during the time of TSS and current time. Bloodraven and Varys are the ones who pulled the strings in KL (Varys became more influential after LF took residence in the Vale). The fast rupture of Tyrell/Lannister alliance can not be attributed to Cersei's follies alone.

[Frey family reunion]

I remember yolkboy or another poster made an analysis about the blackberries and Blackfyres. I can’t find that thread but here is a quote from ADwD:

“Come, drink with me,” the fat man said. “A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say.” He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey. Tyrion shooed them off with the back of his hand and drank deep. The taste was so cloying that it was all he could do to keep it down. The second cup went down easier, however. Even so, he had no appetite, and when Illyrio offered him a bowl of blackberries in cream he waved it off.

Apart from the association of a Black Dragon loyalist with blackberries in TSS, we have Illyrio drinking blackberry wine and eating creamed blackberries with Tyrion. He says “a scale from the dragon that burned you” while pouring the blackberry wine and I bet this dragon is the Black Dragon.

It seems to me that this imagery is more consistent with Illyrio being a Blackfyre supporter than an actual member of House Blackfyre.

[Valerius]

How to heck are you guys invoking characters like Septon Sefton and Lady Spider in your analysis? None of those characters could possibly still be alive at the time of Game of Thrones. They can't be stand ins for Serra or Varys.

[Frey family reunion]

How to heck are you guys invoking characters like Septon Sefton and Lady Spider in your analysis? None of those characters could possibly still be alive at the time of Game of Thrones. They can't be stand ins for Serra or Varys.

The theory is (and I think it's a pretty good one btw even if I don't agree with every conclusion in this thread) that the Sworn Sword is a microcosm of the Blackfyre rebellion and also contains hints as to the Illyrio-Varys-fAegon shenanigans.

[Bael's Bastard]

If Aegon is not truly Rhaegar's son, I think this is a pretty solid theory.

[Lost Melnibonean]

How to heck are you guys invoking characters like Septon Sefton and Lady Spider in your analysis? None of those characters could possibly still be alive at the time of Game of Thrones. They can't be stand ins for Serra or Varys.

he comparisons are not literal; they're suggestive.