What is your religion? And why do you believe in your religion?

[sologdin]

can attest that i have mated routinely with manifestly animated objects, whose state of animation typically increased as the mating in question progressed.

[Wise Fool]

* It often comes across as an individualistic self-indulgence.

* It frequently ignores the emphasis of fellowship and community within institutionalized religions.

* It's often reductionist about institutionalized religions.

* SBNR people say that they don't like institutionalized religion because they find the divine in nature as if religious people do not experience the divine in nature too.

* There's the bizarre feeling that these people lack conviction but are a living in vacuous state of wishy-washy spiritual beliefs out of a fear of commitment or offending anyone.

* The mixing and matching of spiritual practices often comes across as cultural/religious misappropriation.

* Many people who claim to be SBNR do not seem very spiritual at all. They seem puzzled when I ask whether they have any spiritual practices.

* In fact, many seem to struggle when I ask what they believe in. "You believe that there are multiple ways to get to heaven/enlightenment? That's great. There are a number of institutionalized religions/denominations that espouse that too."

[citation needed]

:p

You have a lot of "seems" and "there's a bizarre feeling that" and "often comes across as" going on here. Surely you can see this kind of says more about you than the entirety of people who are "sbnr."

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[citation needed]

:P

You have a lot of "seems" and "there's a bizarre feeling that" and "often comes across as" going on here. Surely you can see this kind of says more about you than the entirety of people who are "sbnr."

You asked me for my subjective observations and opinions, and I gave them. Don't complain that inherently subjective opinions of my experiences are subjective. Would you prefer if I did not curtail my statements with qualifiers but instead presented it as absolute and dogmatic fact? Is that what you want?

[TerraPrime]

<imagines MFC as Russel Crowe, standing in the center of the coliseum>

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!!

[Sci-2]

@MFC:

I can see some of that. I do think SBNRs can be overly critical of religion, and the label might be more about in-group selection than any definitive spirituality.

OTOH, I do think the designation might [be] valuable as we move into a future where the only feeling of personal gnosis people have is a vague sense of "something more".

We place great stock in our vision when in reality we see through a pinhole and think we see the whole horizon. I think Sci posted an article (that I will now be forced to read) of animals breeding with inanimate objects because they can't tell the difference because of their limited perception. Are we sure this is not us? Why? Science? Math?

He did, it was Hoffman's Interface Theory of Perception: Natural Selection Drives True Perception To Swift Extinction.

[TrueMetis]

Yeah, despite my arguments I know that feel. Happy Ent and his compelling story about Bob the Programmer certainly doesn't help.

Might may not make right. Frankly, what makes right Right is another question in and of itself. But that's not necessarily what I was arguing. When I said superior in all ways I did mean in all ways,not just a narrow focus on power. The God of this thought experiment is the omniscient,all-powerful God. Can you imagine what the world looks like from the vantage of The God? How it thinks (when it's not sleeping)? Shit, human beings are critical of our own cognitive abilities, how do you think it matches up against this perfect construct?

We place great stock in our vision when in reality we see through a pinhole and think we see the whole horizon. I think Sci posted an article (that I will now be forced to read) of animals breeding with inanimate objects because they can't tell the difference because of their limited perception. Are we sure this is not us? Why? Science? Math?

Why are we assuming superior in all ways? A look around the world, let alone the universe, would suggest this isn't true. Maybe it's a matter of what he trying to achieve, but an all powerful deity could do anything using any mechanism. So for whatever purpose the deity created this universe it chose suffering as a part of this universe for no reason. That's not superior. But then this god is omniscient, it knows everything already. So the universe isn't here for it to learn something or for some purpose. Except maybe entertainment, and if so this god is pretty sadistic.

I see the practical problem with this: it requires people to abandon their intuitions and place faith in this being (abandoning our tools may come back to bite you in the ass logically speaking but I'm too tired to think it out), which is of course difficult, but that's why it's humility.

No it's stupidity. You posit an all powerful deity, so it could make everyone know it exists no faith required. And being all powerful it wouldn't effect free will or any of those other bs reasons people give for why an all powerful deity couldn't do this.

[Phaing]

Why are we assuming superior in all ways? A look around the world, let alone the universe, would suggest this isn't true. Maybe it's a matter of what he trying to achieve, but an all powerful deity could do anything using any mechanism. So for whatever purpose the deity created this universe it chose suffering as a part of this universe for no reason. That's not superior. But then this god is omniscient, it knows everything already. So the universe isn't here for it to learn something or for some purpose. Except maybe entertainment, and if so this god is pretty sadistic.

:agree: Aren't you glad you don't live in Westeros?

oooOOOoo, gonna get slammed for that, ain't I? :cool4:

There is , of course, another explanation;

This God-Monster started out no knowing anything at all, and is trying to learn from us.

Its enough to make you pity the poor bastard, ain't it?

[Sci-2]

This God-Monster started out no knowing anything at all, and is trying to learn from us.

Its enough to make you pity the poor bastard, ain't it?

This ties in well with HE's previously idea. What if the God overseeing us is just an AI being trained to make better simulations later?

He did, it was Hoffman's Interface Theory of Perception: Natural Selection Drives True Perception To Swift Extinction.

More philosophy than religion, but as it ties into Buddhist/Hindu notions interesting to note this guy is an Idealist:

"I propose that the obstruction is commitment to a physicalist ontology: It is

not possible to obtain consciousness from unconscious ingredients. I propose

instead the ontology of conscious realism: Consciousness and its contents are all

that exists. Matter, brains, and space-time are among the contents of

consciousness, dependent on it for their existence. For a conscious realist the

mind-body problem is to show precisely how conscious agents construct the

macroscopic and microscopic physical world. I propose a mathematically rigorous

account of conscious agents and their dynamics, and of their construction of the

physical world."

- -Physics from Consciousness

Video, Slides, Applet

[Gears of the Beast]

It is not possible to obtain consciousness from unconscious ingredients.

My response to anyone who says that: how do you know?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Castel, suppose for a moment that we were living in a Lovecraftian world, where Cthulhu, Dagon, and company are waiting until the stars are right. Such beings are also above our human comprehension - it's what makes Lovecraft's eldritch abominations so, well, Lovecraftian. Would it be appropriate to worship Cthulhu in that situation?

[Wise Fool]

You asked me for my subjective observations and opinions, and I gave them. Don't complain that inherently subjective opinions of my experiences are subjective. Would you prefer if I did not curtail my statements with qualifiers but instead presented it as absolute and dogmatic fact? Is that what you want?

I asked for reasons. I guess what I was looking for was something more substantial than irrationality. Something heftier than the usual "oh but that's just my opinion" defense-that-is-no-defense that so many people these days seem to think is a sufficient follow-up to an insulting, demeaning or bigoted claim.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I used to worship at the possible altar of Uthor Doul, but now I'm a confirmed Yatwerian.

[Phaing]

Castel, suppose for a moment that we were living in a Lovecraftian world, where Cthulhu, Dagon, and company are waiting until the stars are right. Such beings are also above our human comprehension - it's what makes Lovecraft's eldritch abominations so, well, Lovecraftian. Would it be appropriate to worship Cthulhu in that situation?

IMHO, it would be more "appropriate" to resist, defy and just stick a fork in such edlrich abominations.

Better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees.

Even if that means soul-death.... no, especially if that's what it means. An eterinty with my body of light chained to such pieces of crap? Forget about it!

[Happy Ent]

Back to SBNR.

I’d qualify as a “religious but not spiritual” person in the widest of senses.

In particular, I identify as “culturally Christian”. (I am deeply immersed in Christian mythology, history, and culture. I regularly attend services, have been an active church singer for many years, was married in church, all my children are baptised, etc.)

I just don’t believe the Abrahamic God exists, nor do pixies or angles or supernatural, self-aware, sentient forces in nature (outside of plant consciousnesses, which are completely natural).

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Do you just go to church for the community?

[Gears of the Beast]

Back to SBNR.

I’d qualify as a “religious but not spiritual” person in the widest of senses.

In particular, I identify as “culturally Christian”. (I am deeply immersed in Christian mythology, history, and culture. I regularly attend services, have been an active church singer for many years, was married in church, all my children are baptised, etc.)

I just don’t believe the Abrahamic God exists, nor do pixies or angles or supernatural, self-aware, sentient forces in nature (outside of plant consciousnesses, which are completely natural).

Don't you have to believe in a particular religion to be classed as 'religious'? Sure, you can be "immersed" in all of that stuff but it doesn't sound like you hold anything even close to a religious belief.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

<imagines MFC as Russel Crowe, standing in the center of the coliseum>

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!!

That image is even funnier if you know what I look like. I'm a fairly short and scrawny guy.

I asked for reasons. I guess what I was looking for was something more substantial than irrationality. Something heftier than the usual "oh but that's just my opinion" defense-that-is-no-defense that so many people these days seem to think is a sufficient follow-up to an insulting, demeaning or bigoted claim.

Again, you asked for my reasons why I personally dislike SBNR, and those very real reasons were my personal experiences with people who identify as SBNR. What sort of things would you expect to be more substantial than the irrationality of my personal experiences? Scientific studies of my dislike for people who identify as SBNR? As a whole, these people tend to have uniformed opinions on matters of institutionalized religion, bizarre aversions to making any positive claims in what they believe apart from the vagueries of "something more," and often misappropriate other religions and cultures. (It doesn't help that so many SBNR tend to be privileged middle-to-upper class white people.) Institutionalized religions are not always above these things either, but institutionalized religions can at least hand you the pamphlets of basic doctrines, religious practices, and religious history. In short, SBNR offers nothing of substance or novelty to religious discourse. People being dissatisfied with institutionalized religion is nothing new. Christian monks and nuns were highly spiritual people who sought a spiritual life as opposed to strictly religious clerical life of the priesthood.

Less critically, SBNR are the hipsters of the religious world.

Back to SBNR.

I’d qualify as a “religious but not spiritual” person in the widest of senses.

In particular, I identify as “culturally Christian”. (I am deeply immersed in Christian mythology, history, and culture. I regularly attend services, have been an active church singer for many years, was married in church, all my children are baptised, etc.)

I just don’t believe the Abrahamic God exists, nor do pixies or angles or supernatural, self-aware, sentient forces in nature (outside of plant consciousnesses, which are completely natural).

Likewise. I attend Presbyterian and Episcopal church services. I was "religiously trained and educated" in a Presbyterian seminary. I'm culturally a Reformed Protestant. I have opinions on various theologies, liturgies, church histories, hermeneutics, etc., but where I fall deficient is in the central premise of believing in God or a divine entity.

[Disturber of Peace]

Each time someone here describes themselves as SBNR i have a harder time keeping track of what "spiritual" means.

Could someone define it?

[Gears of the Beast]

Each time someone here describes themselves as SBNR i have a harder time keeping track of what "spiritual" means.

Could someone define it?

One of those meaningless terms whose definition seems to vary between each person who personally identifies with it. You can tell a term isn't very useful when someone needs to clarify it 100% of the time they use it to describe themselves for anyone to extract any actual meaning from the word.

[Happy Ent]

Do you just go to church for the community?

Was that directed at me?

If so: no. Community alienates me.

Living now in Sweden, I need to endure the moment in the service where everybody the congregation shakes hands with their neighbours, mumbles some words, and looks them in the eye with a smile. I dread that.

I much prefer the tradition I’m used to, where you’re completely anonymous and don’t interact with anybody at all. (Except for the formalised settings of singing hymns together and Communion from the vicar.