The Walking Dead season 4 ( NO COMIC SPOILERS)

[Nictarion]

We kinda see the first grave when Lizzie and Mika are waiting outside. They also talking about finding a dead baby.

Oh ok, thanks. I guess I missed that part.

[kairparavel]

What bigger picture are you looking for ? Something bad happened in the world and it seems most people don't know why or how. So we get the story of a band of survivors and the 'man is the monster' plotline interspersed with the zombie threat.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

this show has gone completely downhill. the 2nd half of the season has been so boring and slowly paced and rick michonne and carl haven't been seen in like 3 episodes. the writers should watch how game of thrones includes every character into each episode and makes it work with a few key scenes.

[Lord Stark]

Oh and I forgot. On Talking Dead, one of their side facts told how this was the third episode without Rick, and it's the biggest gap without Rick so far. The reason being is to show how spread out, and alone each group is. While I don;t really follow that logic, it does make some sense. Rick is no doubt the main character, and not seeing him as not only the leader of the group, but not in any group, does paint a picture how torn up they are after the prison.

[Lord Stark]

That is my single biggest problem with the show, which is why it can be a little tough to stick with it at times. But as I understand, Kirkman himself hasn't really hinted at any bigger picture, so I'd imagine the writers are just following his lead.

I would point out that Kirkman himself said that AMC was against some of the things in the second half of this season. If this episode wasn't it, then the remaining 2 are going to be brutal, and both episodes have brutal in their descriptions.

[awesome possum]

What bigger picture are you looking for ? Something bad happened in the world and it seems most people don't know why or how. So we get the story of a band of survivors and the 'man is the monster' plotline interspersed with the zombie threat.

Exactly. The larger narrative is, "the zombie apocalypse happened and we're going to follow this group of people as they try to survive in this new world." That's it.

the writers should watch how game of thrones includes every character into each episode and makes it work with a few key scenes.

Game of Thrones does not include every character into each episode.

[Commodore]

What bigger picture are you looking for ? Something bad happened in the world and it seems most people don't know why or how. So we get the story of a band of survivors and the 'man is the monster' plotline interspersed with the zombie threat.

A possible cure, a discovery of the source of the outbreak, a sign that civilization is reforming. Anything to keep us invested that this might be all leading to something.

The problem with every open ended show is you have to give the illusion of a narrative progression without ever reaching a conclusion. Lost ran into this problem.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I would point out that Kirkman himself said that AMC was against some of the things in the second half of this season. If this episode wasn't it, then the remaining 2 are going to be brutal, and both episodes have brutal in their descriptions.

No I meant what we're seeing is the last people just circling the drain, before the inevitable - and of course that can lead to brutality as it is damn near impossible to come to grips with what these people are facing. With the Kirkman bit, I was referring to how he flat out refused to go into how the world became like this, or any possible resolution (good or bad). With that being considered, it's hard for me to see any bigger narrative, as Commodore was saying.

Of course there will be powerful stretches like the last half of today's episode, but I'm concerned about what I think is a lack of overall direction (other than survival).

Edit: I get that the show has 'a bigger narrative', but there's no end in sight other than the eventual death of all the characters. That's what bugs me.

[kairparavel]

The new showrunner had a lot to undo or tie up this season because the old one failed to tie up the governor storyline last season. I guess for that reason, I am ok with how they dealt with the ending of the prison storyline, the scattering of groups and the eventual joining of the survivors at Terminus. As a comic reader (and I give nothing away) I have enjoyed all that I have seen post prison.

[Commodore]

Exactly. The larger narrative is, "the zombie apocalypse happened and we're going to follow this group of people as they try to survive in this new world." That's it.

Right, but all they are doing is walking around scrounging for food and avoiding/killing zombies until eventually they get eaten, then rinse/repeat with more people, like a video game. What's the point? What's the story arc?

[kairparavel]

A possible cure, a discovery of the source of the outbreak, a sign that civilization is reforming. Anything to keep us invested that this might be all leading to something.

The problem with every open ended show is you have to give the illusion of a narrative progression without ever reaching a conclusion. Lost ran into this problem.

Why does there need to be a cure? Why does society need to reform? Why do we need to see either? This is a character study in how a group of people in this situation are surviving. And it could still be, with those things happening, far far away from their knowledge because they are simply cut off. I find that compelling enough four years into it.

[Lord Stark]

No I meant what we're seeing is the last people just circling the drain, before the inevitable - and of course that can lead to brutality as it is damn near impossible to come to grips with what these people are facing. With the Kirkman bit, I was referring to how he flat out refused to go into how the world became like this, or any possible resolution (good or bad). With that being considered, it's hard for me to see any bigger narrative, as Commodore was saying.

Of course there will be powerful stretches like the last half of today's episode, but I'm concerned about what I think is a lack of overall direction (other than survival).

Edit: I get that the show has 'a bigger narrative', but there's no end in sight other than the eventual death of all the characters. That's what bugs me.

I see not including how this virus or whatever it is, as a strength. Kirkman has said for comics that he has story lines up to issue 300, at of right now the comics are at 123, and the show is at . say 55. There is alot left to tell, and all very good. In something like this, I don't see how your average person would know what caused the outbreak. At the very least I could see a top ranked military person being told what they think was, if they understand it at all. The people in Rick's group, would have no idea. As for a cure. While with surviving day to day being the thing that matters, not sure who would find this cure. Perhaps it's something that might be touched on in the future. I at least don't find it believeable in this day and age when information is power, and the powers that be in all ours lives, that hold onto it as long as they can, would lead to a world without any clue as to what the hell this outbreak is about. Hell when you think of H1N1, I'll bet most people have no clue what it is, I believe couldn't really say much more then bird flu.

There are more story lines to tell, but I think the biggest thing at the moment is to paint a picture of how bleak things are. It's one thing to show the undead rise again, and another to show it's effects of people for years, and years without hope.

[awesome possum]

Edit: I get that the show has 'a bigger narrative', but there's no end in sight other than the eventual death of all the characters.

That is the inevitable end for all narratives, isn't it?

Right, but all they are doing is walking around scrounging for food and avoiding/killing zombies until eventually they get eaten, then rinse/repeat with more people, like a video game. What's the point? What's the story arc?

That is the story arc. They are trying to survive, find safety and make it work. It's been almost two years since the dead came back and the government hasn't swooped in for the rescue. The zombies haven't died off. This is the new world and they must survive it.

This story isn't about finding a cure, discovering how it happened, or the big hero saving the world. It's about this small group of imperfect nobodies trying not to get eaten by zombies. That's it.

[Jabronius Maximus]

Time is a flat circle...I think I've had this conversation several times on these forums, and I probably will next year :p

But for me, there are two reasons that have soured my opinion of WD: The Last of Us, and World War Z (the book). I've played/read each since starting WD, and in both there are examinations of how people change when faced with these survivalist circumstances. But in addition to that, both had a progression, and eventually, a resolution. Now I get that it's a bad comparison because WD is an ongoing show, but I can't help but compare them, which has resulted in an almost jaded view of WD.

Don't get me wrong, moments like the mid season finale and second half of tonight are definitely worth watching - and I'll keep watching for those moments. It's still great TV. But that added level of either a light on the horizon, or a cure that no one can reach (either physically, or figuratively - ie because humanity is so far gone) would be the icing on the cake.

TL;dr Imo WD is good, but not great. As commodore says, an added level of narrative would make it something special.

Edit: I realize I totally missed that bit about Terminus. It'll be interesting to see where they go with that. I'll remain skeptical, given what Kirkman has said about 'cures', and a chance to return to civilization.

[Nictarion]

A possible cure, a discovery of the source of the outbreak, a sign that civilization is reforming. Anything to keep us invested that this might be all leading to something.

They literally just introduced a character that's claiming to have a cure. And Terminus is advertising a chance at civilization.

[Lord Stark]

Right, but all they are doing is walking around scrounging for food and avoiding/killing zombies until eventually they get eaten, then rinse/repeat with more people, like a video game. What's the point? What's the story arc?

I think we need to look at the show a little different. All the episodes after the prison seem to be taking place in the form of a few days, maybe a week or so. We have been watching for months since the prison, but for the characters, it's been days. They start out with nothing. From nothing you have to worry about surviving day to day. We saw tonight, that once Ty and Carol found a place even remotely safe, they considered staying, and likely would have if not for Lizzie.

Now this kinda seems like a repeat of the start of the series, I see what your saying. I think that is the point. All these characters went through so much to get to the prison. To start a new life. As we saw with beth's diary, a return to the old way of life. For this group at least, it was all ripped apart for them, when they thought they were safe. Losing the prison would be harder then their normal lives, as they suffered alot, and then finally thought they found peace. I think the prison showed us that the walking dead aren;t the threat, they ruined civilization, but they can be over come with ease by those who work together. The prison showed us that the real threat to humans, is other humans.

I see the prison as no different then a village 2000 years ago, surviving, and living, and one day raided by a neighbouring tribe, and scattered to the wind. To me, at least, it tell one of the one ancient of stories in human history. The Weak get taken, and the strong do what they want.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

Game of Thrones does not include every character into each episode.

your right they don't include every character but they usually include most of the main POVs into each episode while showing multiple plot lines. rick carl and michonne haven't been seen in 3 episodes and i feel like i've barely seen glenn either.

[pandagod]

Just whatever you do in a zombie apocalypse , don't look at flowers ...

[red snow]

I was really surprised that the show went there. I didn't think it was brave enough but full marks to those involved for seeing the story through logically. Easily one of the shows best episodes. Strong acting from Tyreese and Carol (I'll forgive the psycho child as that's a hard role for someone young to play).

[Myrddin]

The larger narrative is obviously: Carl is the Bad Ass Who Was Promised (BAWWP) who will lead mankind out of the zombie wasteland into a new golden age.

:)