Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Ugh, fuck this show: From reddit: He doesn't mention the escape at all. That's why I thought the whole "this belonged to my mother" bit was meant to get the item into her hands. Sansa didn't want to accept it at first, but Dontos pleads with her and she takes it. There is no hint given in the scene that the jewelry could have any other significance, nor mention of where she should wear it to. So much for Sansa becoming more active this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Ugh, fuck this show: From reddit: He doesn't mention the escape at all. That's why I thought the whole "this belonged to my mother" bit was meant to get the item into her hands. Sansa didn't want to accept it at first, but Dontos pleads with her and she takes it. There is no hint given in the scene that the jewelry could have any other significance, nor mention of where she should wear it to. So much for Sansa becoming more active this year. It's not that much of a big deal. He can just come to her room at the start of 4x03 and tell her he's gonna help her escape. He doesn't need to make his intentions clear in the premiere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 It's not that much of a big deal. Yes, it is a big deal. Sansa has now lost the main active role that she has had to date in the whole damn series, that is, actively participating in her long-term escape plan. Dontos will not be coming "to her room" in 4.03. The wedding ends in chaos in 4.02, pretty obviously, at which point she's just going to be dragged out of there in a panic. If they were planning to have her involved in advance they wouldn't have completely changed the Godswood meeting to remove any mention of them escaping, and given her the hairnet, the only thing Sansa "needs" to get from Dontos if you regard this as merely plot beats rather than character development, which the show repeatedly has with Sansa, as in the wedding story, where her POV and agency did not matter to the writers, only her status as a MacGuffin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes, it is a big deal. Sansa has now lost the main active role that she has had to date in the whole damn series, that is, actively participating in her long-term escape plan. Dontos will not be coming "to her room" in 4.03. The wedding ends in chaos in 4.02, pretty obviously, at which point she's just going to be dragged out of there in a panic. If they were planning to have her involved in advance they wouldn't have completely changed the Godswood meeting to remove any mention of them escaping, and given her the hairnet, the only thing Sansa "needs" to get from Dontos if you regard this as merely plot beats rather than character development, which the show repeatedly has with Sansa, as in the wedding story, where her POV and agency did not matter to the writers, only her status as a MacGuffin. Maybe watch how the entire sequence plays out over the 1st two episodes before slitting your wrists. It's honestly not that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes, it is a big deal. Sansa has now lost the main active role that she has had to date in the whole damn series, that is, actively participating in her long-term escape plan. Dontos will not be coming "to her room" in 4.03. The wedding ends in chaos in 4.02, pretty obviously, at which point she's just going to be dragged out of there in a panic. If they were planning to have her involved in advance they wouldn't have completely changed the Godswood meeting to remove any mention of them escaping, and given her the hairnet, the only thing Sansa "needs" to get from Dontos if you regard this as merely plot beats rather than character development, which the show repeatedly has with Sansa, as in the wedding story, where her POV and agency did not matter to the writers, only her status as a MacGuffin. Sorry but I think you're overreacting. It doesn't drastically alter Sansa's character to have her not be "involved" in the wedding. She'll wear the hairnet to the wedding, Olenna will act like she does in the books, and Ser Dontos will probably whisper to Sansa to meet him outside as the chaos ensues, or something like that. She's not being reduced to a plot device, nor has she ever been. She was and always will be portrayed as a very human, sympathetic character, especially now in the wake of the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickys Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 from the fan pics during the shooting of the wedding, Dontos was present. maybe he will talk to her during the party or before. anyway a question, in the tv show the wedding party is held in the late morning-early afternoon or late afternoon-early evening?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 She's not being reduced to a plot device Yes, she would be. In the book, she courageously meets Dontos in the middle of her enemy's stronghold, and agrees to cooperate in his escape plot. In the show, she'll be shuttled around like a plot device, with no agency of her own; cutting her own role in the escape is the definition of reducing her to a plot device. Maybe watch how the entire sequence plays out over the 1st two episodes before slitting your wrists. It's honestly not that big of a deal. What possible reason do you think they would have for: Completely changing Sansa's meeting with Dontos and giving her the necklace in advance, only to have a second unnecessary scene where he then convinces her to escape? That's the opposite of their normal writing style. I'm guessing once the episode aires and it goes like I predict, you'll switch to saying that this change somehow: Improves Sansa's story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 As far as the speculation about Jaime's Arya line somehow being about FArya, that seems like a stretch being that there is no one cast for this season to play the role and also because Jaime's not really involved in that plot at all. Anything's possible but the far more likely reason we hear him talking about Arya is in his scene where he sends Brienne on her quest, they have to acknowledge that she was entrusted to return both Stark daughters back to their family and one of them is nowhere to be found and probably dead. This will then transition to Sansa and the likelihood of Brienne being able to track her down which is why you then hear Brienne say "I'll find her." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes, she would be. In the book, she courageously meets Dontos in the middle of her enemy's stronghold, and agrees to cooperate in his escape plot. In the show, she'll be shuttled around like a plot device, with no agency of her own; cutting her own role in the escape is the definition of reducing her to a plot device. What possible reason do you think they would have for: Completely changing Sansa's meeting with Dontos and giving her the necklace in advance, only to have a second unnecessary scene where he then convinces her to escape? That's the opposite of their normal writing style. She's already agreed on the show to escape with Littlefinger before she put the kibosh on it when a better option seemingly opened up for her. She clearly doesn't want to be in King's Landing, she's talked about leaving plenty of times on the show. I don't get why having someone suggest they escape and she agrees to go along with their plan gives her any kind of "agency". She does escape and Dontos obviously is going to be a part of it so what exactly is the big issue here? I'm not sure you're going to find many people who agree with you that being manipulated by Dontos into escaping is some great achievement on her part in the books. Whether they have another scene or not prior to the wedding, I don't think this changes anything for her. It's never her idea to escape, she's always just grasping at any kind of helping hand that's out there (in this case, Dontos). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clariana Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, Jaime! Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I don't get why having someone suggest they escape and she agrees to go along with their plan gives her any kind of "agency". She does escape and Dontos obviously is going to be a part of it so what exactly is the big issue here? I'm not sure you're going to find many people who agree with you that being manipulated by Dontos into escaping is some great achievement on her part in the books. Whether they have another scene or not prior to the wedding, I don't think this changes anything for her. It's never her idea to escape, she's always just grasping at any kind of helping hand that's out there (in this case, Dontos). Are we just dispensing with spoiler tags here? Okay, fine. Sansa's escape is a manipulation, no doubt, but there's a huge damn difference between Sansa being carried around like a sack of corn, and Sansa actively trying to escape and participating in the plan. The latter involves Sansa being an agent -- agents don't have all the information and may fall prey to manipulations, but they are acting. Sansa acts by courageously going to the Godswood in the middle of the night to investigate the note, when it could well be a trap. She acts by evaluating her options and level-headedly agreeing to go with Dontos. She acts by continuing to meet with him and readying her escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooseman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Just deceptive editing. That would be a clear lie, not just deceptive editing. You think they edited it in a way to make it look like Brienne is going after Arya, so that the Sansa twist won't be revealed before the season starts. So, why include this line at all? Why not leave it out, if they don't want to spoil it? Why stop there? Why not cut different dialogue fragments together to make it look as if Daenerys marries Ser Barristan or something? Or that Samwell will be chosen as Lord Commander? That would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Are we just dispensing with spoiler tags here? Okay, fine. Sansa's escape is a manipulation, no doubt, but there's a huge damn difference between Sansa being carried around like a sack of corn, and Sansa actively trying to escape and participating in the plan. The latter involves Sansa being an agent -- agents don't have all the information and may fall prey to manipulations, but they are acting. Sansa acts by courageously going to the Godswood in the middle of the night to investigate the note, when it could well be a trap. She acts by evaluating her options and level-headedly agreeing to go with Dontos. She acts by continuing to meet with him and readying her escape. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Sansa obviously wants to leave KL, and in season 3 she often meets with Littlefinger to discuss their options. I'm sure they'll make it clear that if she didn't want to escape, she wouldn't have: this is a very odd complaint. And her being manipulated into leaving doesn't make her a "plot device" – I think you're misusing that term. She would be a plot device if the only implications of her escape were to somebody else's storyline, and that's definitely not the case; it's still very much her own story, whether or not she's an "agent" in the escape. As far as the speculation about Jaime's Arya line somehow being about FArya, that seems like a stretch being that there is no one cast for this season to play the role and also because Jaime's not really involved in that plot at all. Anything's possible but the far more likely reason we hear him talking about Arya is in his scene where he sends Brienne on her quest, they have to acknowledge that she was entrusted to return both Stark daughters back to their family and one of them is nowhere to be found and probably dead. This will then transition to Sansa and the likelihood of Brienne being able to track her down which is why you then hear Brienne say "I'll find her." Well, it just sounded very much like something Jaime would say to Tywin when he mentions that Ramsay will marry Arya Stark. But obviously we don't know yet, and your theory is equally likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That would be a clear lie, not just deceptive editing. You think they edited it in a way to make it look like Brienne is going after Arya, so that the Sansa twist won't be revealed before the season starts. So, why include this line at all? Teasing viewers with a prospective plotline. Much like they've repeatedly edited past trailers to make it look like Dany is on her way to Westeros. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Sansa obviously wants to leave KL, and in season 3 she often meets with Littlefinger to discuss their options. I'm sure they'll make it clear that if she didn't want to escape, she wouldn't have: this is a very odd complaint. Um, no, my point is not that she doesn't want to escape. My point is the elimination of her active part in her escape, turning her into a plot token, much like she was treated last season with regard to her wedding, where her POV was eliminated and instead the story was told from the POV of the Lannisters, Varys, and the Tyrells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Road Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That would be a clear lie, not just deceptive editing. You think they edited it in a way to make it look like Brienne is going after Arya, so that the Sansa twist won't be revealed before the season starts. So, why include this line at all? Why not leave it out, if they don't want to spoil it? Why stop there? Why not cut different dialogue fragments together to make it look as if Daenerys marries Ser Barristan or something? Or that Samwell will be chosen as Lord Commander? That would be fun. It's just a red herring it builds up enthusiasm for Brienne and Jaime's storyline and then surprises viewers when it takes a different direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooseman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Anyone willing to bet? 50$ that Brienne will go after Arya. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Um, no, my point is not that she doesn't want to escape. My point is the elimination of her active part in her escape, turning her into a plot token, much like she was treated last season with regard to her wedding, where her POV was eliminated and instead the story was told from the POV of the Lannisters, Varys, and the Tyrells. Her "active part" in her escape? She agrees to go, she works towards going, and she eventually ends up going in both the books and the show. Just because she's not aware that Dontos is going to help her doesn't mean she's being simplified to a plot token. Her POV was not eliminated last season. It seems like this because we don't have access to her thoughts, and we as viewers have all the knowledge that the Lannisters, Varys and the Tyrells have (whereas Sansa doesn't). ETA: But in any case, this is an incredibly minor change which doesn't really alter any of the major characters or plot points, so saying something like "fuck this show" based on something so insignificant seems very petty and puristic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franko99 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I'm a huge Sansa fan, I didn't like the way they treat Sansa's arc last season, but I really don't think it is such a big deal as Colonel says, from what I understand from the reddit, she didn't entirely trust Dontos yet, it would be stupid is he just say "I want to smuggle you away" and she just respond "ok". The last part of the plan probably happens next episode before the wedding (remember there is a breakfast before the actual wedding), who knows. On the bright side, we finally have a "confirmation" that Sansa and Tyrion are not BFF, as ussual people here just whined and bitch about a "change" with no good reason, only to be proved wrong :rolleyes: Also, if your response to such a small change, before you even saw it, is "fuck the show"...well maybe you should just stop watching it? No one is forcing you and there certainly will be more changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briantw Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 That would be a clear lie, not just deceptive editing. You think they edited it in a way to make it look like Brienne is going after Arya, so that the Sansa twist won't be revealed before the season starts. So, why include this line at all? Why not leave it out, if they don't want to spoil it? Why stop there? Why not cut different dialogue fragments together to make it look as if Daenerys marries Ser Barristan or something? Or that Samwell will be chosen as Lord Commander? That would be fun. Because one is very similar to an actual plot from the story (Brienne going to look for Sansa, which isn't much different from her going to look for Arya...both Stark girls) that sets the stage for Brienne's plot line this year and the other would be complete bullshit. Was that so hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The episode "Oathkeeper" is E4 where Brienne is presumably sent on her task by Jaime. Sansa will have already escaped King's Landing. Brienne says in the trailer "I'll find her". How is it possible that she would go looking for Arya and not Sansa who just disappeared an episode prior? People need to give their head a shake. Jaime: "Listen, I know you're supposed to bring back both Stark girls. One of them just fled the capital a day or two ago and will have the kingdom sniffing around for her. Her life is in mortal danger but she probably couldn't have got too far. If you leave now, there should be a fresh trail for you to follow. Hold on though, I'd like you to ignore that because the other girl hasn't been seen or heard of for months and months. We have no leads and in all likelihood she's dead. She could literally be anywhere in Westeros, but again, she's probably dead." Brienne: "I'll find her." Jaime *checks off part of his page in Kingsguard book that covers smart decisions* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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