Carne Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Anybody have any idea what this means? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 People don't read the following if you don't want to be spoiled as to how some scenes in ep. 401 play out. Le Cygne, apparently he gives her three flowers and she sort of dismisses them as "just pretty flowers" but then he explains that they have different properties, one is used in medicine and one is poisonous etc. and that everyone around Slaver's Bay knows that already. He makes the point that she ought consider what the locals know and maybe politely suggesting that she doesn't know everything. The reddit AMA poster also says that he's introduced in a scene with Grey Worm where they're seeing which one of them can balance a weapon on their palms for longer with their arms outstretched (I guess as a test of strength). Anyway, their supposed to be at some sort of meeting and Dany seeks them out and playfully pretends that she doesn't approve and some sort of flirty vibe ensues. Sounds like good fun. Of course maybe the reddit poster is lying but I doubt it because a lot of it checks out with what some of us have deduced and with casting etc. Also she posted pictures that she had clearly taken. I buy it anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal-a-bunga Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 @ Colonel Green Your mental gymnastics are impressive, no doubt, but what are you even trying to say with your response? Dontos, in the books, literally does the same thing as Littlefinger & Margaery - he approaches her with a plan to escape the capitol. She agrees in all three of these situations. She makes a choice to follow through with that plan. You seem to have mistaken a response with a reaffirmation of your bias against changes you don't agree with from the source material. You didn't refute anything I said, but rather tried to frame it in a light that doesn't naturally follow from a thoughtful consideration of the source material (that being the show, in this case, not the books). Unless you truly believe that Tyrion threatening to rape children and having a 'no-name' (or rather, a name I don't immediately recall) character killed out of a weird amalgamation of self-preservation and jealousy are more effective at displaying his dark side than the events that are going to take place at the end of this season. Which you probably do. To each their own, I guess, but I find the change just as logical as I did with Arya. They delayed her transition to darker territory in order to give the show a more dramatically satisfying pay-off for a television audience. Why show her murdering a bunch of extras at Harrenhal just because she's had a shitty time there (because the show very clearly didn't have the time or the budget to flesh out her stay there as much as the books did), when we can see that transition reflected as a result of her mother and brother being betrayed and murdered by the Frey's? They made the right choice, even if I have no problem with how any of that played out in the books. And regardless, it's not as if anyone views Tyrion as 'squeaky clean' in the show. He's a lot more affable, no doubt, but Dinklage has an undeniable charisma that would be utterly wasted if they were intent on keeping the character as close to his book counterpart as possible. The point is, however, that he'll end this season by killing his lover and his father, and that's some dark territory. And it will make sense within the context of the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charizard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charizard Ah, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Your mental gymnastics are impressive, no doubt, but what are you even trying to say with your response? Dontos, in the books, literally does the same thing as Littlefinger & Margaery - he approaches her with a plan to escape the capitol. No, there's a huge difference between her choice to go the Godswood, a choice that was fraught with dangers, and all of the scenarios we've seen on the show, where she's standing around and other characters stroll up to her, with nary an indication of any danger to their conversations (her conversations with Littlefinger take place in broad daylight against scenic vistas, for Christ's sake). It's also a big difference that Dontos is introduced as someone who might actually be in her court, whereas both Littlefinger and Margaery are presented by the show as manipulators, with Sansa as their pawn. And regardless, it's not as if anyone views Tyrion as 'squeaky clean' in the show. Most people view him as squeaky clean in the show, if you read reviews and comment threads (particularly the Unsullied). Ah, thanks. You didn't waste hours and hours of your life watching Pokemon at the turn of the Millennium? For shame, sir, for shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 No, there's a huge difference between her choice to go the Godswood, a choice that was fraught with dangers, and all of the scenarios we've seen on the show, where she's standing around and other characters stroll up to her, with nary an indication of any danger to their conversations (her conversations with Littlefinger take place in broad daylight against scenic vistas, for Christ's sake). It's also a big difference that Dontos is introduced as someone who might actually be in her court, whereas both Littlefinger and Margaery are presented by the show as manipulators, with Sansa as their pawn. The thing is that when you narrow it down to these two criticisms, it sounds incredibly minor and nitpick-y. A legitimate complaint? Maybe. But not one that constitutes a dismissal of the entire show and how her character has been handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonstoned Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Whether or not that bothers you is a matter of personal opinion, and I'm not all that interested in that, by and large. It annoys me, however, when people come to the conclusion that something doesn't make sense, or is bad characterization, etc., simply because it's different than the books. The show has a logic and internal consistency all its own, so when someone makes a statement saying that 'Sansa from the books would never do that.' it pretty much means nothing. They're right, of course, because this isn't Sansa from the books. It's like some people are considering each change as being a 1:1 comparison, instead of each change having a cumulative effect that slowly makes the character more distinct from that of their book counterpart. This is inevitable in adaptation, because an actor working in conjunction with writers and directors will always inform the character they're portraying. Actors don't want their scripts to be shackles, and neither do writers or directors. This is an adaptation, not a transcription. Good point well made tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal-a-bunga Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 @ Colonel Green Then clearly we have different definitions of what amounts to a "huge" alteration. There's no denying that Sansa has already taken an active role in attempting to leave the capitol, and common sense would dictate that discretion is required on her part because of the inherent danger in what she's attempting to do (I believe Littlefinger directly says as much). In fact, it's a pretty logical inference that doing just about anything against the wishes of the Lannister clan is fraught with danger. And I've read plenty of reviews and comments threads (particularly from non-readers; though I don't follow the TWOP thread), in addition to watching the show with a large group of non-readers. They love Tyrion, sure, but I don't think any of them consider him a shining beacon of morality. Comparatively, maybe that appears to be the case, but the company you keep and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonstoned Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Shocking lack of knowledge of Pokemon in this thread on the other hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The thing is that when you narrow it down to these two criticisms, it sounds incredibly minor and nitpick-y. A legitimate complaint? Maybe. But not one that constitutes a dismissal of the entire show and how her character has been handled. I never dismissed "the entire show". And it's part and parcel of how Sansa's character has been handled. The Dontos story arc in its entirety was hugely significant for the character; even the compressed version could have given her some real agency, but it looks like it won't. If the writers don't understand that Sansa being involved in her own escape is important, I don't see any prospect that the writing for Sansa will improve, because nothing that happens after she leaves King's Landing is remotely that full of potential to show Sansa as an active individual. Instead we got a bunch of jokes about how dumb she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashtibram Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Ugh, fuck this show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yeah, that's an expression of frustration with the show. That's not "I don't like anything about this show" -- the show handles many characters very well, as I've said in the past many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal-a-bunga Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 What is agency to you, Colonel Green? Because it's not like Sansa engineers her own escape in the books. Our own lives are entirely a reflection of the choices we make intersecting with the choices of others. There is no true way to be entirely independent, because chance and circumstance play far too large of a role for that to ever be the case. With that in mind, our ability to choose is the ultimate expression of our agency. Whether Sansa is fully aware of what Dontos plans to do, whether she has a vague idea, or whether she has no idea at all are only aspects that will inform her choice. If he approaches her during or shortly after Joffrey dies and says 'We have to go now!', she will still have a choice to make - follow him or don't; trust him or don't; take a chance or don't. If she chose not to follow him, that would also be an example of the character expressing 'agency', would it not? Even choosing to do nothing is a choice, after all. I guess I'm just trying to understand your thought process here, and how you gauge what is or isn't an expression of free will? Because, if you want to examine the show from such a critical stand-point, then you have to acknowledge universal truths about human life and thought process', which you don't seem to be doing. You also seem to be ignoring the totality of the circumstances in play, which seems rather egregious to your main point, considering it was Littlefinger's 'agency' that compelled Dontos (who also made a choice) to assist him in getting Sansa out of King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Le Cygne, apparently he gives her three flowers and she sort of dismisses them as "just pretty flowers" but then he explains that they have different properties, one is used in medicine and one is poisonous etc. and that everyone around Slaver's Bay knows that already. He makes the point that she ought consider what the localsThat's a book scene, he says to help her learn the land. And she doesn't dismiss them, not really, she remembers he gave them to her, again and again. Cool, thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Shocking lack of knowledge of Pokemon in this thread on the other hand. If you knew how old I am, you wouldn't find it shocking at all. :laugh: I've only ever heard of Pokeman because some years back, the little kid next door was obsessed with it--he'd coming running over to my place all babbling and excited, showing me these tiny little figures and going on and on the attributes of each one. My only impression was that his mom was spending an awful lot of $$ on some goofy looking little plastic doodads. I thought the charizard (sp?) was some sort of shorthand for chariot-lizard. Which at least makes sense!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIG2w-UFR78 Interesting interviews from the premiere. EDIT: Even more here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwaHHXrGvsE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 What is agency to you, Colonel Green? In this context, Sansa deliberately and actively involving herself in an escape plan is agency -- and particularly as this is a visual medium (as is often used to excuse cutting so much of Sansa's story), it should have a dramatic component with a clearly conveyed element of jeopardy. Darting through the Red Keep for clandestine meetings in the Godswood, not knowing what she'll find there? Excellent television. In theory, sure, there's some element of danger in the conversations she has with Littlefinger, for instance. But that never comes across onscreen; indeed, pretty much all of Sansa's early scenes in season three are shot without any sense that she's living in the police state she supposedly is, which makes the scenes that hinge on that idea (like the first meeting with the Queen of Thorns) look rather odd. And, again, the choice to actively pursue an opportunity and actually seek it out, rather than having people walk up to her and present it, comes across very differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Sophie says in an interview that Sansa will become very strong and manipulative this season so I would save the "she's been reduced to a plot device rant" for after we've actually seen the episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Sophie says in an interview that Sansa will become very strong and manipulative this season so I would save the "she's been reduced to a plot device rant" for after we've actually seen the episodes. Sophie said we would see Sansa go from a piece to a player last season, which was very clearly not what happened (and didn't happen in the books at point either, for that matter). I wouldn't rely on her statements in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 In this context, Sansa deliberately and actively involving herself in an escape plan is agency -- and particularly as this is a visual medium (as is often used to excuse cutting so much of Sansa's story), it should have a dramatic component with a clearly conveyed element of jeopardy. Darting through the Red Keep for clandestine meetings in the Godswood, not knowing what she'll find there? Excellent television. In theory, sure, there's some element of danger in the conversations she has with Littlefinger, for instance. But that never comes across onscreen; indeed, pretty much all of Sansa's early scenes in season three are shot without any sense that she's living in the police state she supposedly is, which makes the scenes that hinge on that idea (like the first meeting with the Queen of Thorns) look rather odd. And, again, the choice to actively pursue an opportunity and actually seek it out, rather than having people walk up to her and present it, comes across very differently. What is your point? That they didn't film it exactly the way you pictured it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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