the better swordsman who is better, aegon,jon,robb joffrey and loras and gendry

[David Selig]

Gendry would be crushed by Joff in a sword fight, he has had no training whatsoever. No chance against someone trained by the best in Westeros for years who also has a good physique.

[kieran wilkie]

If it was a full on even fight then i would put it as;

Loras

Robb/Jon -interchangeable

Joffrey/Aegon-also interchangeable

Gendry

But if they had their own specific equipment (or equipment they're most likely to use) then it could be a different case. I'm not sure who has what weapons and types of armor, so this is just a rough guess from my memory

Loras- probably a long sword/bastard sword, and likely in the best plate available, also add in the fact he's one of the best fighters currently in the seven kingdoms, even if not the top tier as some think he's not. He also has probably had training from some of the best sword masters during his life

Robb- partially based on having watched the show (though its highly likely that cause he used a shield in battle also) i think he likely used a arming sword, which isn't the most effective thing against plate, also likely in plate or more likely i image a coat of plates. Battle experience, might help if this is a free for all sort of thing, trained at Winterfell which means he's practical at what he does

Jon- has long claw which is valyrian steel and a bastard sword, good for getting past plate, and he's likely got mail as armor, maybe at best a coat of plates, good sword fighter also, though i don't think he's anywhere quite near the top tier, and training same as Robb's

Joffrey- widow's wail is valyrian and likely a long sword so also good for getting past plate, also he's likely in the best plate money can buy, cause even if she's not on the battlefield Cersei is still protecting her little trooper XD probably had training from great swordmasters, though doesn't seem overly skilled.

Aegon- probably been taught with long sword/ that general type of sword, likely wearing partial plate, maybe full plate, considering the resources he has at his back, training is probably quite good, he likely didn't only train with Duckfield so has varied experience, though no true combat yet.

Gendry- assume his sword is an arming sword taken off of a dead soldier or something, likely wearing chain mail at best, no real training, probably knows a few things however, though this idea people have that his strength means anything is ridiculous, if he was fast it might count for something.

So with all this in mind, its still relatively the same tbh, Loras is clearly the most skilled and in a tier far above the others, even if, as some think, he's not in the extreme top tier.

Robb imo would likely come next, due to battle experience, his only major disadvantage is that he's likely using a arming sword (i assume this because if he was using a long sword he'd likely use it without a shield, also with plate armor having a shield is redundant, yet he still carries one) which isn't effective against plate.

Jon would be next if not equal or above Robb, good sword fighter, used to working by himself against multiples, even if they weren't well trained. The fact the best he's likely wearing being coat of plate or mail is his only major disadvantage.

Aegon next, as whilst i don't think he's wearing the best armor available compared to Joffrey i would say that he's likely more practiced at the sword, at least thats the impression i got.

Then Joffrey because although if forced to fight i don't think he'd do too bad like some people do, he is a boy physically still, even if tall and strong for his age, and along with this he doesn't keep his skills in tune from the sounds of it, likely not practicing at every spare moment.

Gendry came last because well no matter how strong you are it doesn't matter when you're put against highly trained and also highly skilled (even if as stated not the top tier) fighters, also considering that he's likely only using an arming sword and some mail at best.

Also on the subject of Robb seeing action. Well considering the war in general is based of the War of the Roses, lets look at it this way. He likely stood within the front or second line, near the middle, if leading the vanguard, and so would have been seeing fighting regardless, i imagine a lot like Edward the fourth, and the reason i make these comparisons is because generally that is who he seems to be mirroring within this story to the war of the roses. Though i do think he saw combat i personally always got the impression he led the cavalry mostly, considering he's said to be better with a lance.

Also on the argument of who is better, Robb or Jon i think there isn't a definitive answer you can give. Robb likely fought multiple opponents in a battle situation. This means that whilst he fought more than one at a time possibly, he was always one among many. So to say he has less experiance then Jon or is less skilled is crap. He has a different kind of experience. In comparison Jon likely has a more dueling styled experience, fighting one at a time or fighting by himself as the only target against multiple targets.

So to say ones better is crap, they have different kinds of ability.

And one last time i'll go back to the Gendry thing because it bugs me. He was strong yes. But sword or even hammer regardless, it doesn't matter. I say this because its speed, not strength that count in a fight. Its not about how hard you hit its about how many hits you give and then how well you don't get hit also. I also like Gendry, so me putting him at the bottom really is a realistic option. People think that with a warhammer he'd be able to beat them all is also bull, because well he still has no training with it, theres a large difference between hitting motionless steel on an anvil and hitting a moving target in armor. Also the idea that a war hammer could magically crush any plate is crap. Thats what the weapon was for, to a degree, but it was more for subduing the opponent until you can get them down and then finish them off with the knife. Same goes for sword as well.

The Joffrey thing about being a coward- well my idea was that they have no choice but to fight and they know it, so its regardless in this situation as to whether he'd fight or not. The fact is he is fight and he knows it. So we have to assume that he's then going to do whatever he can to win, and i think you'd be suprised by what he'd be willing to do to win, especially considering he's a craven.

[DamoDega]

Loras would win in a fight against Jon, but to say that he would "kill him in seconds" is an extreme exaggeration. Jon held his own with Mance for a long time, and has beaten just about everyone at Castle Black. He's experienced enough that he could make a match of it, even if he doesn't win.

Loras is definitely Jon's superior, but I think people are underestimating Jon's abilities. The books have put an emphasis on his sword skills improving book by book. Jon has the potential to become an elite fighter with time and experience.

Give it time

When GRRM will make Berzerkz Jon kill some big name Jon will jump up in everyone DBZ rankings :D

Readers perception work that way

I don't want even imagine the absolute internet shitstorm collapse if end up that yes, Ned got saved at some point but killed Arthur Dayne thanks to a good sword strike, or that before need to be saved he was doing decent :D

[kieran wilkie]

I agree with you that everyone would rank him higher, but then that would be I think because we'd have been given more of an example of what standard Jon has now reached. Its clear he's a tough onion, but we need a example of just how tough an onion he really is, which is what you said (him killing a notable fighter) would provide us with.

As for the Ned shit storm thing that made me laugh so much. Yeah there probably would be XD. Though the Arthur fans (myself included) will point out Arthur may have been weakened or exhausted from fighting (and probably killing) Ned's companions, as well as the fact that even living legends (granted he's not living now) can have their off days.

[Jaqen21]

What's the point of this list? It seems to have no goal other than to place Loras at the top of it due to the omission of characters who either have already bested him (e.g. Brienne,Gregor) or characters who certainly would (e.g. Jaime, Sandor, Barristan Selmy)

[King Tommen Baratheon]

What's the point of this list? It seems to have no goal other than to place Loras at the top of it due to the omission of characters who either have already bested him (e.g. Brienne,Gregor) or characters who certainly would (e.g. Jaime, Sandor, Barristan Selmy)

Welcome to the forums!

And yeah, I agree with you- Loras is way above everyone else on this list, (and Gendry is waaayy below everyone.)

[oopeed]

Gendry would be crushed by Joff in a sword fight, he has had no training whatsoever. No chance against someone trained by the best in Westeros for years who also has a good physique.

Tell that to Aerion Brightflame. Dunk was no complete novice at arms, but his training was feeble compared to that of Aerion, but in the end the prince was almost killed within seconds with merely physical strenght.

Gendry is a lot like his pops in matter of physique and as a smith he knows his way with hammers. One blow and courage is all that separates Joffrey from becoming Rhaegar in the ruby ford.... Joffrey may be trained and all that but that didn't saved him from being shamed by Arya, a small girl four years younger than him. Having Widow's Wail may be the only way he'd have an edge.

What's the point of this list? It seems to have no goal other than to place Loras at the top of it due to the omission of characters who either have already bested him (e.g. Brienne,Gregor) or characters who certainly would (e.g. Jaime, Sandor, Barristan Selmy)

My thoughts exactly, it's a fairly unbalanced list... Well, from the still living, I believe that the title of best swordman would be between Barristan, Brienne, Garlan Tyrell, and maybe Lyn Corbray.... I don't mention Jaime since he shames himself every night trying to best Ilyn Payne.

From the ones mentioned on the title... Jon is explicitly said to be best with swords and Robb best with lance, add the dedication Jon has in his practice and Longclaw and you can certainly say he's best than his brother.

Loras was trained to be a knight, to ride gracefully on the lists and is likely the best lancer behind Oberyn Martell. But with swords his brother Garlan bests him... Jon and Robb were never trained to be knights, they were trained to be commanders of armies, so in a one-on-one Loras could best Jon but certainly not without breaking a sweat, and almost certainly not with just one sword. We've never really seen Jon's skill during real combat with Longclaw, but that will at least give him some edge against Loras.

Joffrey would lose against pretty much anyone you set him with. Unless he comes to an adrenaline rush in fear of his life he would even be bested by Ser Gendry whose only training is whatever the BwB has given him.

[Griffin's Roost]

all the guys you named suck

Joffrey I think they mention that he is so bad at fighting that's why he always has that dumb crossbow, and he sucks at that too.

ironic. he loves to kill yet is horrible at it

Robb and Jon might be good but far from great. I think what made Robb good in battle is that he was great at rallying that troops, not so much his one on one combat.

Jon just has basic training. he only kicks those kids asses because they never saw a sword before.

Loras is good but by far most overrated ever. I think the show is the cause of this. Garlan is the real fighter. the book even says Garlan trains against three fighters every day, a 3 v 1. and says flat out Garlan is a nice amount better than Loras. Loras is a great jouster but that doesn't translate to fighting always. I think Loras is probably just an above average fighter.

[Sullen]

all the guys you named suck

Joffrey I think they mention that he is so bad at fighting that's why he always has that dumb crossbow, and he sucks at that too.

ironic. he loves to kill yet is horrible at it

The sparring session at Winterfell ends at a draw between Joff and Robb, he can't be that horrible.

Robb and Jon might be good but far from great. I think what made Robb good in battle is that he was great at rallying that troops, not so much his one on one combat.

Robb survived a good deal of battles, that doesn't mean he's especially good, but it shows he's not especially bad either.

Jon just has basic training. he only kicks those kids asses because they never saw a sword before.

Jon had basic training, yes, for a nobleman, and that is considerable. He is also said to be more competent than Robb, and defeats Iron Emmett who is apparently quite talented during one of his black rages.

Loras is good but by far most overrated ever. I think the show is the cause of this. Garlan is the real fighter. the book even says Garlan trains against three fighters every day, a 3 v 1. and says flat out Garlan is a nice amount better than Loras. Loras is a great jouster but that doesn't translate to fighting always. I think Loras is probably just an above average fighter.

If anything, the show makes Loras seem weaker than he really is. Yes, Garlan is better than him, but Loras is still incredibly talented. So much so that GRRM ranks him alongside Gregor and Sandor Clegane as far as fighters go. He's far from average, he's exceptional.

[sj4iy]

all the guys you named suck

Joffrey I think they mention that he is so bad at fighting that's why he always has that dumb crossbow, and he sucks at that too. ironic. he loves to kill yet is horrible at it

Joffrey's not that good at fighting, but he's the prince/king. He can get away with it.

Robb and Jon might be good but far from great. I think what made Robb good in battle is that he was great at rallying that troops, not so much his one on one combat.

Well, he still survived the battles, so he had to have some skill.

Jon just has basic training. he only kicks those kids asses because they never saw a sword before.

Yeah...in Jon's third chapter of AGoT. He's had about 4 1/2 books since to improve, and he has. Since then he's fought wights, fought Wildlings on several occassions, became the interim Master-at-Arms, and has trained against almost everyone at Castle Black- including Mance, who became King beyond the Wall because of his fighting skills. The idea that Jon is the same swordsman as he was in the very, very beginning of the series is absolutely false.

Loras is good but by far most overrated ever. I think the show is the cause of this. Garlan is the real fighter. the book even says Garlan trains against three fighters every day, a 3 v 1. and says flat out Garlan is a nice amount better than Loras. Loras is a great jouster but that doesn't translate to fighting always. I think Loras is probably just an above average fighter.

Except that he's not part of this list.

[oopeed]

If anything, the show makes Loras seem weaker than he really is. Yes, Garlan is better than him, but Loras is still incredibly talented. So much so that GRRM ranks him alongside Gregor and Sandor Clegane as far as fighters go. He's far from average, he's exceptional.

Wait, is this true? I always thought of him as very good, but not that good. Not that Gregor is truly exceptional, he's just damn big... That would put him just below Jaime or Robert, and closer to Arthur Dayne than to the rest of the Kingsguard.

If Loras is that good, then Brienne and Garlan are now the best warriors in Westeros on par with the Sword of the Morning?

[Sullen]

Wait, is this true? I always thought of him as very good, but not that good. Not that Gregor is truly exceptional, he's just damn big... That would put him just below Jaime or Robert, and closer to Arthur Dayne than to the rest of the Kingsguard.

If Loras is that good, then Brienne and Garlan are now the best warriors in Westeros on par with the Sword of the Morning?

Jaime thinks of Loras like his younger self, and Brienne simply got lucky during Renly's tourney, as Hyle Hunt points out.

And yeah, Garlan is currently one of the best fighters in Westeros... they are not on the same level as Barristan or Arthur Dayne though.

[Sir Bronn]

1.Loras

2.Jon

3.Aegon

4.Robb

5.Gendry

6.joffrey

[Hound_Reborn]

I think Gendry could've probably taken Joffrey out with a smith hammer.

[The Prince Not Promised]

Hey look, the thread came back as a wight. In all seriousness though, the show really messes up some people's views on the book versions of Joffrey and Loras. Joffrey was bigger than Robb and two years younger, but still managed to almost best him at Winterfell in AGOT. Robb says he took more hits than he gave, but the fact that he was giving hits at all means he can't have been too bad. That's not to mention the fact that he was would have received the best training money could buy, even if he wasn't as enthusiastic about it as Robb or Jon. Granted, battle-hardened Robb in ASOS probably outclassed Joffrey by a fair bit.

Loras is explicitly stated to be one of the best swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms by GRRM. Along with the likes of Sandor Clegane. He's not a wimp by any means, and easily tops this list. He'd beat Jon even with Longclaw, though it probably wouldn't be a breeze. If I had to put a number to it I'd say he probably wins 65-70% of the time against Jon. Jon is good, but the problem is we don't know exactly how good. We know he can hang with Mance and might even be better if he has Longclaw, but all we know about Mance is he beat some of the best Wildlings. There are some tough Wildlings out there, but again, we have little to compare them against.

[BalerionTheCat]

Loras is the best. Killed or defeated many real good warriors.
Jon comes after, but maybe quite close, lots of training recently.
Robb is a bit less than Jon.
Aegon unknown, but I would class him below Robb.
Gendry and Joff are far below. I don't think Joff ever trained seriously, but would win anyway. Gendry would win with a hammer.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

1 Jon. 2 Robb (cos jon sez he`s better than robb). 3 Probs Aegon through training 4 Gendry (less traing than aegon but probs training with the bwb. even clumsy his strength would be an asset) 5 Joff(cannot stand the lad so he`s low down in the pecking order) 6 Loras (would have been first but under the knights code he`s been disqualified for stabbing men from behind)

[Kal-L]

1. Loras, the most talented of them all.
2. Jon, better than Robb at the beginning of AGOT
3. Robb, hardly beaten Joff
4. Gendry, never learnt how to use a sword but I think he has a great potential with his impressive physical abilities.

We don't know enough about Aegon to ranked him so I'll wait although I'm sure he is at least a decent fighter.

[Lordi Nietos]

Garlan could take them all, 6 vs 1.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Gendry had the least of favours in life to have a chance compared to the others, but for what is in the text about him and his genetics, he's already a knight and every time he pops up it's combat related... i would put money that by the end of the books he will be better than most, even those 5... maybe Jaime will train him i don't know, but too many connections with helmets and hammers and conflicts around him...

The best sword of the 6 is Garlan then Loras then Jon... by the end i bet Gendry will be the better warrior of the 6 (and if jaime gets hold of him, a swordsman machine will be born)... unless he prefers the warhammer