Vikings 3: Eye-Stabbing as a means of social mobility

[Galactus]

Though it should be pointed out things weren't *neccessarily* that limited: National boundaries weren't exactly established, and so favours owed, persona relationships etc. could mean the viking groups owuld be quite heterogenous.

The "northmen" weren't unknown per se: There had been trading going on for a long time.

[Veltigar]

Plus, the actor has like Henry Cavill's Man of Steel acting range (one face).

You just need a good actors (not the forte of Vikings), good script, interesting topic and good production.

Couldn't disagree more. The acting of the main characters on Vikings is brilliant. I'm not going to delve in to the other easy ones like Lagertha (a warrior woman has never been portrayed more convingly on the small screen), Athelstan or Rollo but that you can't see how good Fimmel is just baffles me.

Ragnar is supposed to be enigmatic and mysterious, you are not supposed to read him thanks to a wide array of faces. His Ragnar is a man of great vision and understanding, who has to operate amongst people who are not all willing to see his way. So, it's important that he remains unpredictable. That's why Fimmel gives such a great understated performance.

That mask only gives way in his private scenes. When he's out there in the wild with baby Ivar or his talk on the beach with his deceased daughter. Than you see the full weight of emotions (which I don't think a Viking man is supposed to flaunt openly) and responsibility bear down on him.

EDIT: the only character I'm really iffy about is Siggy. Something about her acting irks me, but I can't put my finger on it.

[wolverine]

Athelstan is a very popular man. What a great episode. Ecbert is a genius, both in battle and in politics. He's subtly playing both King Aola (that his name?) and the would-be-queen, mainly 'cause he knows he's got the biggest and baddest army out of the three.

Is Ecbert really a genius, or Horik just a moron? Granted, they are not mutually exclusive.

Horik's battle strategy is: There they are! Let's run and kill them cause our gods are with us!

[Mladen]

I think Kathryn Winnick has been great this season. Her and Clive Standen (Rollo) are by far the best actors on the show imo.

She is good... And certainly the best in the show... But, alas, I am not sure how high that honor truly is.

Oy! :tantrum: Do not you dare speak so of dear Athelstan!

;)

I would never dare... :) As I said, he would make someone I would genuinely root for, and I do empathize with him far more than with any other character in the series, but his storyarc does go a bit back and forth between his old world and the new.

I agree about the comparison with GOT, I much prefer Vikings' approach to especially violence compared to GOT's. After mostly skipping "the making of Reek" storyline in season 3, I thought the blood eagle scene would make me sick just from Ragnar's descriptions, but upon seeing it, I found is somehow gruesome, obviously, although still artful and aestetic in its own way (especially because of the music accompanying it). It was quite a long scene of torture, and one does not come much gruesomer than the blood eagle, but Vikings' style is both easier to stomach and more artful than GOT that mostly just underlines gore and pain.

True... The bloody eagle scene only from description is taunting, and the way it's done truly had an impact on me. If you have a good actor, I assume that it makes graphic scenes a bit obsolete. I have to admit, I was kinda wanting to see how it looks like, but at the end, between detailed description, music and Jarl Borg's facial expression, I thought I got enough.

I think Kathryn Winnick has been great this season. Her and Clive Standen (Rollo) are by far the best actors on the show imo.

She is good... And certainly the best in the show... But, alas, I am not sure how high that honor truly is.

Oy! :tantrum: Do not you dare speak so of dear Athelstan!

;)

I would never dare... :) As I said, he would make someone I would genuinely root for, and I do empathize with him far more than with any other character in the series, but his storyarc does go a bit back and forth between his old world and the new.

I agree about the comparison with GOT, I much prefer Vikings' approach to especially violence compared to GOT's. After mostly skipping "the making of Reek" storyline in season 3, I thought the blood eagle scene would make me sick just from Ragnar's descriptions, but upon seeing it, I found is somehow gruesome, obviously, although still artful and aestetic in its own way (especially because of the music accompanying it). It was quite a long scene of torture, and one does not come much gruesomer than the blood eagle, but Vikings' style is both easier to stomach and more artful than GOT that mostly just underlines gore and pain.

True... The bloody eagle scene only from description is taunting, and the way it's done truly had an impact on me. If you have a good actor, I assume that it makes graphic scenes a bit obsolete. I have to admit, I was kinda wanting to see how it looks like, but at the end, between detailed description, music and Jarl Borg's facial expression, I thought I got enough.

I think Kathryn Winnick has been great this season. Her and Clive Standen (Rollo) are by far the best actors on the show imo.

She is good... And certainly the best in the show... But, alas, I am not sure how high that honor truly is.

Oy! :tantrum: Do not you dare speak so of dear Athelstan!

;)

I would never dare... :) As I said, he would make someone I would genuinely root for, and I do empathize with him far more than with any other character in the series, but his storyarc does go a bit back and forth between his old world and the new.

I agree about the comparison with GOT, I much prefer Vikings' approach to especially violence compared to GOT's. After mostly skipping "the making of Reek" storyline in season 3, I thought the blood eagle scene would make me sick just from Ragnar's descriptions, but upon seeing it, I found is somehow gruesome, obviously, although still artful and aestetic in its own way (especially because of the music accompanying it). It was quite a long scene of torture, and one does not come much gruesomer than the blood eagle, but Vikings' style is both easier to stomach and more artful than GOT that mostly just underlines gore and pain.

True... The bloody eagle scene only from description is taunting, and the way it's done truly had an impact on me. If you have a good actor, I assume that it makes graphic scenes a bit obsolete. I have to admit, I was kinda wanting to see how it looks like, but at the end, between detailed description, music and Jarl Borg's facial expression, I thought I got enough.

Couldn't disagree more. The acting of the main characters on Vikings is brilliant. I'm not going to delve in to the other easy ones like Lagertha (a warrior woman has never been portrayed more convingly on the small screen), Athelstan or Rollo but that you can't see how good Fimmel is just baffles me.

Lagertha, Athelstan and Rollo are far juicier and more interesting roles. And IMHO, their performances are working on the type of show such as Vikings. As for Fimmel, I don't see it. I am not talking about the construction of his character or the general believeability, but the thing is that I don't hold high roles like this. He does seem like a logical choice for Ragnar (reminding me why some of the comic book heroes has been cast), perhaps due to his lack of expressionism in acting, which allows to give Ragnar a dimension of a man not so good in dealing with his emotions. I wouldn't call that we have ever seen the full emotional range of Ragnar, but that is perhaps intentional. As I said, if you want to have a man who isn't good in dealing with his emotions, perhaps choosing actor like Fimmel isn't a bad idea.

[wolverine]

I think Fimmel has been great.

[Veltigar]

I think Fimmel has been great.

:agree:

As I said, if you want to have a man who isn't good in dealing with his emotions, perhaps choosing actor like Fimmel isn't a bad idea.

Have you even watched season two? When he talks to his dead daughter or when he takes little Ivar into the woods. Those were the most emotional scenes in the entire show. Fimmel nailed those scenes. The man has a knack for subtlety.

[Mladen]

Have you even watched season two? When he talks to his dead daughter or when he takes little Ivar into the woods. Those were the most emotional scenes in the entire show. Fimmel nailed those scenes. The man has a knack for subtlety.

Of course I watched the Season 2. I wouldn't be here if I haven't seen the show... It may be just the question of taste, and I do find that the scene with Ivar was indeed touching, but the thing is that I am not so convinced he is that great.

[Zorral]

Zorral was mentioning American slavery and it sort of made me think of what the slave owners did with the bastard children they had with their slaves, which is that they were usually used in their households as servants and usually favored over the others. At the same time if they could pass for white or even not, they sometimes gave them a trade/education and/or arranged a marriage for them and gave them their freedom. Its not impossible that she could be a niece or a half sister I suppose, there did seem to be a resemblance of sorts between the two of them in that scene where she presented her as freedwoman to Bjorn but maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there. Bjorn marrying her doesn't fit with the history of course but this is a psuedo history about psuedo history and the Seer did say he would marry the daughter of a King but he didn't say she would be a princess :laugh:

I hate to tell you this but most of the slaveowners sold most of the children they fathered. Not all owners and not all the children were sold, but by far the largest number were. Many scholars and historians have, with very great effort and difficulty, put together the numbers. DNA testing has helped enormously in this area -- and more often than not, has confirmed what was passed down in African American families' oral history!

As far as slavery in Africa -- it worked in all kinds of different ways, and there were very many ways for a slave to change his or her state. Then there was the Islamist slaving that affected mostly central and east Africa -- and the slaves were taken out of Africa, to various Arabist states, to India and further into Southeast Asia.

By and large, particularly in West Africa from where came almost all the Africans who came to the New World and what would be the U.S. (most of the 350,000 slaves who came to what would be the U.S. directly out of Africa had already arrived by the end of the 1760's), came from West Africa.

There's no reason to suspect that the English and Americans -- or even the Spaniards -- learned how to treat slaves from Africans. They were very good at it all by themselves. Though by the time of the discovery of the New World slavery as such had pretty much disappeared in Western Europe -- except all around the Mediterranean rim. Even through the 1600's the Barbary pirates were raiding as far as Ireland for slaves.

Look at the history of Ireland, for instance, which was the source from which the English took their first slaves into the Caribbean. But they died. Rapidly. Nor did they know anything about raising rice or indigo, for instance. Africans did. All the time. But history shows in great detail that everything about organizing a plantation and plantation labor, the English had already established in Ireland, including absentee landlords and owners.

[Zorral]

Couldn't disagree more. The acting of the main characters on Vikings is brilliant. I'm not going to delve in to the other easy ones like Lagertha (a warrior woman has never been portrayed more convingly on the small screen), Athelstan or Rollo but that you can't see how good Fimmel is just baffles me.

Ragnar is supposed to be enigmatic and mysterious, you are not supposed to read him thanks to a wide array of faces. His Ragnar is a man of great vision and understanding, who has to operate amongst people who are not all willing to see his way. So, it's important that he remains unpredictable. That's why Fimmel gives such a great understated performance.

That mask only gives way in his private scenes. When he's out there in the wild with baby Ivar or his talk on the beach with his deceased daughter. Than you see the full weight of emotions (which I don't think a Viking man is supposed to flaunt openly) and responsibility bear down on him.

EDIT: the only character I'm really iffy about is Siggy. Something about her acting irks me, but I can't put my finger on it.

:agree: Let's go have a :cheers:

[jarl the climber]

I hate to tell you this but most of the slaveowners sold most of the children they fathered. Not all owners and not all the children were sold, but by far the largest number were. Many scholars and historians have, with very great effort and difficulty, put together the numbers. DNA testing has helped enormously in this area -- and more often than not, has confirmed what was passed down in African American families' oral history!

As far as slavery in Africa -- it worked in all kinds of different ways, and there were very many ways for a slave to change his or her state. Then there was the Islamist slaving that affected mostly central and east Africa -- and the slaves were taken out of Africa, to various Arabist states, to India and further into Southeast Asia.

By and large, particularly in West Africa from where came almost all the Africans who came to the New World and what would be the U.S. (most of the 350,000 slaves who came to what would be the U.S. directly out of Africa had already arrived by the end of the 1760's), came from West Africa.

There's no reason to suspect that the English and Americans -- or even the Spaniards -- learned how to treat slaves from Africans. They were very good at it all by themselves. Though by the time of the discovery of the New World slavery as such had pretty much disappeared in Western Europe -- except all around the Mediterranean rim. Even through the 1600's the Barbary pirates were raiding as far as Ireland for slaves.

Look at the history of Ireland, for instance, which was the source from which the English took their first slaves into the Caribbean. But they died. Rapidly. Nor did they know anything about raising rice or indigo, for instance. Africans did. All the time. But history shows in great detail that everything about organizing a plantation and plantation labor, the English had already established in Ireland, including absentee landlords and owners.

I hear you Zorral, I'm admittedly stretching things but Bjorn and Porrun are a handsome young couple, hopefully it doesn't end tragicaly.

[The Fallen]

` I especially like Fimmel's diabolical face. His eye color is also very jarring.

I think the issue is the dialogue. It's purposefully simple, for whatever reason. It's like beginner's English. Maybe that adds to or creates a perception of bad acting?

[Zorral]

I hear you Zorral, I'm admittedly stretching things but Bjorn and Porrun are a handsome young couple, hopefully it doesn't end tragicaly.

:agree: It's too early to have :cheers: but I'm sick so I can pretend I can -- meds help with that! :)

One of the best aspects of Vikings is the relationships among the women, how they shift and change, and develop. Even Lagertha and Aslaug's relationship which began as rivals in connection with Ragnar, has become something else, which isn't about Ragnar, per se. Very few movies, novels or television series even think of doing that with female characters. There's a very limited menu for women's roles and having a large place for women's relationships with each other that don't depend upon the central male protagonist are nearly non-existent. In fact, this is one way that extended families are made, which also make for kingdoms. Lagertha and her son are still as much a part of Ragnar's clan as Aslaug and her sons.

It is the two women here, Lagertha and Aslaug, who are making this decision, not Ragnar. It was another choice, in an episode titled "The Choice."

[lojzelote]

Watching Aslaug welcome Athelstan back, I finally realized whom she so strongly reminds me of the entire time - Lena Heady as Cersei, of course! How could I have been such a dummkopf.

[Zorral]

Watching Aslaug welcome Athelstan back, I finally realized whom she so strongly reminds me of the entire time - Lena Heady as Cersei, of course! How could I have been such a dummkopf.

What?????

[lojzelote]

I mean, physically.

[Wussel]

I sort of thought that she did it to please Bjorn, he is Ragnars oldest son, his Mothers popular and she does not want any problems between him and her sons, that's why she has become unfailingly nice to both of them, not that there is anything wrong with this, its her job to look after her kids.

As far as Porrun goes, I think there is more to her than meets the eye, at least possibly. Perhaps its possible that her Father or brother had a bastard child with a slave and that's sort of how she came to be Auslungs slave. By winning over Bjorn she has won her favor, if he marries her it creates a blood tie between Auslung and Lagertha and Bjorn. It could also fufill the prophecy of the Seer, who said Bjorn would marry the daughter of a King, of course its just a theory and I could be completely wrong.

I am a bit worried about this "slaves from afrika" stuff. Please look for "thrall" Unfree people were common in that period. Giving them the freedom too. Basically the cloth is a token of liberty in this series. Athelstan good that funny golden ring. Reminds me of Dobby the house elf getting socks.

The swimming is part of the ritual too. There are rituals described on the net. They are more sophisticated, but I suppose that will do for the show.

The prediction of the mystics in this series are all coming true so far. Athelstan got a cross. Borg got an eagle. Björn will get a princess. So far there is only the nymphomanic vegetarian from Mercia available.

I do not think that Thoruns boyfriend is an issue. Hidden father is not a topic too. Vikings took people in battle as household extension. Even other vikings.

Lets talk about pick up lines:

Björn: "Where do you sleep? Do you have a boyfriend?" What the poor girl is supposed to say? Would you believe the answer?

Rollo is not Harald Hagarda. Viking age went from Lindisfarm until Harald got it few weeks before Hastings. The historic Rollo did a lot of pillaging in the 8xx years. He is a predecessor of a famous line of kings. He was baptisted. As is Show-Rollo. The "brother" seems to be a kind of bloodbrother from the battlefield. Whether mythical Ragnar had a brother or not is not known. Historical Rollo came a bit after the Ragnar myth. I still think the show wants Rollo to be that guy. Siggi will manage to make that man.

[cdawnb]

I am pretty sure I read an interview with Hirst saying he had condensed some of the timelines because there is so much story to tell. So it is possible that this Rollo is the historical Rollo.

I love how the women are portrayed in the show. Not one stupid over done cat fight in sight. They all behave with dignity and maturity. They are well drawn with motivations I can understand and empathize with, even if I don't agree with their actions.

Am much as I love Lagertha, I also appreciate Aslaung. Siggy is one that I enjoy to watching because you never know what she is going to do next. I think the acting is fantastic.

The men are very well done also. Sometimes I think they get a little lost in the discussions because it is so refreshing to have an entire cast of women that are written the way these characters are. And for the record, I believe that Standen, Fimmel, Blagden and Skarsgard nail their roles.

The only quibble I have had with this show is the Floki storyline has been rushed a little. All of the elements are there for it if you were paying attention, but it could have been fleshed out a more. This is where an 11 or 12 episode season could have helped.

[Zorral]

Don't worry about the "slaves from Africa" business here -- it's included as a contrast as to how differently that played out than how things are in the nordic world, for instance. But there are overlaps, because slavery is slavery, and all slavery is enforced, is made possible by physical coercion.

As you see in the language of some of the of the sagas and eddas, such as the Nibelungleid and Volsung Saga, is the word "nithling" which means one who is untrustworthy, cowardly -- without honor -- a slave, for a slave cannot have honor.

[Zorral]

I mean, physically.

Well, maybe. :) Headly's got that really unpleasant mouth thing she does, like she's trying not to bare her teeth in preparation for biting off somebody's else's mouth, or even her own if there's nothing better! Aslaug doesn't do that.

[The Fallen]

Lets talk about pick up lines:

Björn: "Where do you sleep? Do you have a boyfriend?" What the poor girl is supposed to say? Would you believe the answer?

If I was her I'd be thinking rape. And probably would've have thrown a boyfriend in there too.