Is it just me or has the dialogue lost something?

[Mr Fixit]

No that's not fair, but I was simply quickly generalising. Obviously a more in-depth analysis would require going through each of the sex scenes and determining which are useful and which aren't. Of course I'd still say that most of the sex is of the fanservice variety rather than the plot furthering variety so the my margin of error of 3 scenes seems reasonable.

Quite possible. Which again brings us to the point I was trying to make. The scenes where nothing goes on besides nudity are few. Therefore, the argument that those eat up a substantial amount of time is not really relevant.

[Khal-a-bunga]

The Huffington Post actually compiled every scene that contained nudity and/or sexual content for the first three seasons, and the total amount of screen-time came out to approximately 16 minutes for the first two seasons, and approximately 9 minutes in the third season. So 25 minutes total, that features any sexual content, out of approximately 25 hours (taking the opening and ending credits, as well as the actual episode lengths into account). And, contrary to 'popular' belief, a lot of that material is focused on elements directly relating to the story line or the characters, while others are simple 'sexposition'.

I'm no prude, so it never bothered me much in the first place, but there are plenty of shows on cable that feature a similar amount of sexual content and/or nudity that don't get even half the flack that Game of Thrones receives.

[protar]

The Huffington Post actually compiled every scene that contained nudity and/or sexual content for the first three seasons, and the total amount of screen-time came out to approximately 16 minutes for the first two seasons, and approximately 9 minutes in the third season. So 25 minutes total, that features any sexual content, out of approximately 25 hours (taking the opening and ending credits, as well as the actual episode lengths into account). And, contrary to 'popular' belief, a lot of that material is focused on elements directly relating to the story line or the characters, while others are simple 'sexposition'.

I'm no prude, so it never bothered me much in the first place, but there are plenty of shows on cable that feature a similar amount of sexual content and/or nudity that don't get even half the flack that Game of Thrones receives.

I do think the fact that it's an adaptation is part of the reason it gets so much flak. In an original IP you can't really blame the writers for putting in too much gratuitous nudity. If it's not someone's thing they can simply move on and it doesn't affect them. Omitting scenes from source material in exchange for sex scenes and then saying that there's no time for those original scenes is a lot more grating. As is changing the tone of the source material from something rather serious to something a lot cheaper. Now of course I know you'll say that it doesn't change the tone because there's loads of sex in the books, but well I think I've previously laid out why I disagree with that. There are sex scenes and there are sex scenes.

And of course Game of Thrones is a huge phenomenon. It's no surprise if it gets more flak than smaller shows for this sort of thing.

[Fevre River Warrior]

I don't think the dialog has lost anything at all. Bronn has the best lines but they are all great.

So I disagree with you.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I do think the fact that it's an adaptation is part of the reason it gets so much flak. In an original IP you can't really blame the writers for putting in too much gratuitous nudity.

Possibly, but it seems doubtful. And, to be honest, the majority of the flak leveled against the show for this reason is from book-readers (though non-readers also mention it quite often), who would be in a similar situation (unfamiliar with the 'source material', if any) for these other shows. My best guess is that it's because it is a fantasy series, and genre fans aren't as accustomed to the amount sexual content found in the book or the show, by and large. People who aren't a fan of the genre are probably even more surprised.

If it's not someone's thing they can simply move on and it doesn't affect them. Omitting scenes from source material in exchange for sex scenes and then saying that there's no time for those original scenes is a lot more grating.

Examples? You seem to think there's a 1:1 correlation between scenes with nudity and scenes from the book that were omitted for "sex scenes". It's about a lot more than that. You don't just get to exchange Littlefinger's monologue in the brothel for the battle at the Whispering Wood, for example. You're being reductive here. What are some examples of "sex scenes" you would cut, what would you replace them with (ideally something that could replace it from that same episode), and where/how would you convey the information lost in the scene that you cut, as a result?

As is changing the tone of the source material from something rather serious to something a lot cheaper. Now of course I know you'll say that it doesn't change the tone because there's loads of sex in the books, but well I think I've previously laid out why I disagree with that. There are sex scenes and there are sex scenes.

I don't feel like the tone of the source material has been lost at all. The show is less rich, less powerful, less compelling, but these are all things that are 100% inevitable when adapting a series of novels as dense, complex, and long as A Song of Ice & Fire. And really, you haven't "laid out" much of anything, since I'd argue that there are very few extraneous, titillation-only scenes featuring sexual content in the show.

And of course Game of Thrones is a huge phenomenon. It's no surprise if it gets more flak than smaller shows for this sort of thing.

True, true.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Yeah STARZ Spartacus makes GOT look like a Lawrence Welk show!

NO JOKE. I couldnt follow that show cuz i kept asking where my plot was.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's much ado about nothing where a bunch of people get all huffed and puffed over several minutes of screentime. Don't get me wrong - it's perfectly legitimate not to like this stuff, but the way everyone talks about gratuitous nudity all the time, you'd think each episode has half an hour of non-stop hardcore porn. It's an easy position to fall back on: whenever someone doesn't like something, hey, it's that gratuitous show with T&A. It's disingenuous.

:thumbsup: Right on, mate. There are episodes that not even a bare ass is seen. (and the time we do see some bare ass last season, it was in that hella bomb bath scene with Jaime and Brienne.)

The Huffington Post actually compiled every scene that contained nudity and/or sexual content for the first three seasons, and the total amount of screen-time came out to approximately 16 minutes for the first two seasons, and approximately 9 minutes in the third season. So 25 minutes total, that features any sexual content, out of approximately 25 hours (taking the opening and ending credits, as well as the actual episode lengths into account). And, contrary to 'popular' belief, a lot of that material is focused on elements directly relating to the story line or the characters, while others are simple 'sexposition'.

I'm no prude, so it never bothered me much in the first place, but there are plenty of shows on cable that feature a similar amount of sexual content and/or nudity that don't get even half the flack that Game of Thrones receives.

Exactly. I can only think of two really gratuitous moments. Littlefinger's brothel scene in season 1 and the Mel/Gendry one was really unnecessary (but ended up being a plot related scene despite that). So yeah. When i started watching the show, i was shocked about how mild the sex was in comparison to other stuff ive seen in premium serials.

[Grayven]

Everyone's gotten smacked by the Sass Fairy. For me, the threats and jabs that come across less veiled reflect the tension of the characters. It should be a moment of Lannister triumph but Cersei's a dethroned broodmare, Loras is engaged to Cersei, Jaime's crippled and realizes how much the city's changed without him...the gloves are off and the punches are aimed at the windpipes. Then you have Oberyn who LOLs at subtlety because that's his brother's gig and he'd rather start a barfight.

I think they only missed one barb that I would have preferred instead of awkward silence..

Cersei: But you love him.

Brienne: Like a brother.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

^ Burn!!!

[Warhawk137]

I think it's about the same, I just think that the first couple episodes have been a bit thematically different, so the writing has a slightly different tone. Particularly in south-central Westeros, where the nature of the threats to stability have changed quite a bit, there's a lot more pettiness and simmering nastiness, whereas in past seasons there was more outright present drama. Where in the past there were more identifiable nexus of power, it's quite a bit more unsettled now.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think they only missed one barb that I would have preferred instead of awkward silence..

Cersei: But you love him.

Brienne: Like a brother.

Oh gods that would have been beautiful~ Especially with Loras' epic ice burn...

[The Boar of Gore]

Brienne shouldn't even be in King's Landing because she has nothing to do there, and it forces her to confront a reality that was skillfully avoided in the book, namely, the fact that Jaime was screwing his own sister. Because, come on, anyone's gut reaction to that is going to be a queasy feeling followed by a swift disinvestment of emotion in their former love-interest. Basically, the show put her in that scene with Cersei so they could state for the camera "You love him" (which the audience knew anyway) and yet they've made it much less believable.

Scenes lose or gain power according to the truth in the emotions of the characters - something Gwendolyn Christie referred to in an interview, and something which helped her great performance in some powerful scenes of Season 3. Maybe the dialogue isn't as compelling as before because the writers have been losing sight of truth. A great line encapsulates the right reaction at the right dramatic moment, but how can a writer craft a great line if they lose sight of what the reaction should be, and how was Brienne supposed to react to Cersei?

[protar]

1. I expect that's definitely part of the reason. It's really only very recently (partly because of ASOIAF/GOT) that fantasy is being seen as a respectable, adult genre so it's up for heavy scrutiny and perhaps the sex scenes are seen by some as "trying" too hard to be adult.

2. This is perhaps a project for some time other than half 9 in the morning. But it would certainly be interesting to do. I have some suggestions for how the information in the LF sex monologue could have been conveyed elsewhere but to be honest my suggestion more pertains to not taking away all of LFs subtlety rather than the sex.

3.There are very few (if any sex scenes) which are entirely for titillation, but that's only to be expected in any medium other than pornography. All of the sex scenes do of course have a context within the show that makes some degree of sense. However it can't be denied that titillation is a major part of many of these scenes and often I feel that the context is simply an excuse for said titillation. The main reason I feel that D+D's sex scenes change the tone of the work is that Martin's sex scenes are rarely actually meant to be sexy. A few happen to be sexy but most aren't really and instead the sex itself is serving some purpose, whether it's plot or characterisation. D+D have turned it the other way around. The sex scenes are all supposed to be sexy and some happen to have plot development in them. It's rarely the sex itself which is part of the plot development though. Most of the sex scenes in the show further the plot through the infamous sexposition method. But there's rarely any real connection between the sex and the exposition. They're just placed awkwardly next to each other, like D+D were desperately thinking of some way to make their sex scenes seem valid additions to the plot. The sex itself is rarely plot relevant and when it is it's pretty much always (always always?) from the books. And of course there's the rather baffling choice of putting plot important information in the same scene as boobs.

[boojam]

I do think the fact that it's an adaptation is part of the reason it gets so much flak. In an original IP you can't really blame the writers for putting in too much gratuitous nudity. If it's not someone's thing they can simply move on and it doesn't affect them. Omitting scenes from source material in exchange for sex scenes and then saying that there's no time for those original scenes is a lot more grating. As is changing the tone of the source material from something rather serious to something a lot cheaper. Now of course I know you'll say that it doesn't change the tone because there's loads of sex in the books, but well I think I've previously laid out why I disagree with that. There are sex scenes and there are sex scenes.

And of course Game of Thrones is a huge phenomenon. It's no surprise if it gets more flak than smaller shows for this sort of thing.

As noted , maybe half, or so of those 25 min. are kinda sorta close to scenes in GRRM books.

Seemingly they have dumped a sort of lesbian scene for Dany in the books , I don't think it will show up in the rest of the show.

As has been noted Danny and Darrio do some XXX things even HBO would not touch.

And George has an extravagant banquet XXXXX dance entertainment that only Tinto Brass could have shot.

I mean George gets a little out of hand at times!

Bass is still alive but I don't think on HBO payroll!

[Beric175]

If this thread implies that the writing quality between ASOS and ADWD has declined, well.....

[Roose Seal]

The dialogue has never been the show's strong suit but over time it's becoming ridiculously overwrought.

The chicken thing at the inn in 401 was trying way too hard to be like this Tarantino-esque banter but it just went on and on and it wasn't that clever or amusing.
Other dialogue that seems zingy at first just doesn't make any sense like:

"They killed Lommy"
"What the fuck's a Lommy?"

While that may be funny, it doesn't make any sense - why would the Hound say "what the fuck's a lommy" and not "who the fuck is Lommy"? as "they killed X" is a clear indication that X is a person. The line comes off as forced and unnatural to get a cheap laugh.

The banter between characters in 402 definitely felt like it was too clever for its own good.

I don't know if it's the delivery or the lines themselves, but the scenes were just one overwrought zinger after the other. Like the Oberyn/Tywin/Cersei scene where each was trying to one-up the other, it was just ridiculous.

Olenna has had some really terrible one-liners as well but "Not now Mace I'm speaking to Tywin" just made me roll my eyes.

[Wsaharan]

The problem, as I see it, is that every conversation between the main characters have to include references to all the different plotlines (ongoing as well as up-and-coming). There's Rhaegar & Lyanna, Dorne, Iron Bank, etc etc. And you can really feel that it's all about reminding viewers of different plotlines. "Iron Bank, ok? Did you get that?"

[Newstar]

The Huffington Post actually compiled every scene that contained nudity and/or sexual content for the first three seasons, and the total amount of screen-time came out to approximately 16 minutes for the first two seasons, and approximately 9 minutes in the third season. So 25 minutes total, that features any sexual content, out of approximately 25 hours (taking the opening and ending credits, as well as the actual episode lengths into account). And, contrary to 'popular' belief, a lot of that material is focused on elements directly relating to the story line or the characters, while others are simple 'sexposition'.

I'm no prude, so it never bothered me much in the first place, but there are plenty of shows on cable that feature a similar amount of sexual content and/or nudity that don't get even half the flack that Game of Thrones receives.

I think GOT is probably pretty light in the sexual content department. There aren't that many scenes of characters actually having sex, now that I think about it. Lots of precoital making out/rolling around and postcoital cuddling, but not a lot of the actual act itself. Maybe some of that has to do with time constraints: why go the trouble of showing characters banging when one can imply it?

There seems to be a lot of nudity, on the other hand (mostly female), and a lot of it seems purely gratuitous. Some of it I don't mind--I kind of love the situations where the female characters deliberately use their nudity as a show of confidence and strength (like Dany with Daario in 3x08)--but so much of it seems so unnecessary. The prostitutes didn't need to be undressed when Oberyn and Ellaria were picking them out. Osha didn't need to be naked to seduce Theon (she could have made out with him or something). Margaery didn't need to be naked to try to seduce Renly. And so on.

was trying way too hard to be like this Tarantino-esque banter

I thought the same thing.

The banter between characters in 402 definitely felt like it was too clever for its own good.

GRRM was writing a lot of that dialogue, though, and to be brutally honest, "too clever for its own good" sums up a lot of his dialogue. I enjoy it, but I agree it can be really grating.

[Ingelheim]

I think GOT is probably pretty light in the sexual content department. There aren't that many scenes of characters actually having sex, now that I think about it. Lots of precoital making out/rolling around and postcoital cuddling, but not a lot of the actual act itself. Maybe some of that has to do with time constraints: why go the trouble of showing characters banging when one can imply it?

There seems to be a lot of nudity, on the other hand (mostly female), and a lot of it seems purely gratuitous. Some of it I don't mind--I kind of love the situations where the female characters deliberately use their nudity as a show of confidence and strength (like Dany with Daario in 3x08)--but so much of it seems so unnecessary. The prostitutes didn't need to be undressed when Oberyn and Ellaria were picking them out. Osha didn't need to be naked to seduce Theon (she could have made out with him or something). Margaery didn't need to be naked to try to seduce Renly. And so on.

Well, I think it always helps.

[Roose Seal]

GRRM was writing a lot of that dialogue, though, and to be brutally honest, "too clever for its own good" sums up a lot of his dialogue. I enjoy it, but I agree it can be really grating.

I think his dialogue in the books is okay, sometimes a little overwrought but it fits the style and when you're reading you can just gloss over it if it's too much. On screen, add to it the hamfisted delivery and it becomes a little obnoxious.

Or underwhelming: I just remembered the Tywin/Jaime scene in 401. That was particularly flat and uninspired.

[boojam]

The dialogue has never been the show's strong suit but over time it's becoming ridiculously overwrought.

The chicken thing at the inn in 401 was trying way too hard to be like this Tarantino-esque banter but it just went on and on and it wasn't that clever or amusing.

Other dialogue that seems zingy at first just doesn't make any sense like:

"They killed Lommy"

"What the fuck's a Lommy?"

While that may be funny, it doesn't make any sense - why would the Hound say "what the fuck's a lommy" and not "who the fuck is Lommy"? as "they killed X" is a clear indication that X is a person. The line comes off as forced and unnatural to get a cheap laugh.

Olenna has had some really terrible one-liners as well but "Not now Mace I'm speaking to Tywin" just made me roll my eyes.

Yeah the Lommy line seems a non sequitur and don't know why Dave and Dan did not think that thru.

Sandor might not be bright bulb but he's not stupid either.

As for the whole dialog between Polliver and the Hound being too Tarantino-ish.

Maybe you must have not watched the hundreds of Western films and Film Noir that use the same technique (other films too) , not at all original with Quentin.

The whole 'chicken' thing is quite good. Polliver does not notice how short a fuse Sandor has and keeps pushing the envelope.

That dialog is right out of A FIST FULL OF DOLLARS

Clint Eastwood: "I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. Gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it..."

The fact that it's got the quirky 'chicken' twist to it is just great to my ears because it builds the tension in an off center way.

I notice the Hound does not really take off on Polliver until Polliver has asked to trade a chicken for Arya.

For the 14th century milieu that's probably not much of a thing to some ignorant soldiers , but apparently Sandor has something against it, and it sets him off.

Great scene and great dialog.

Arya's mirroring of the MERCY chapter is well almost perfect, tho George did it better.