Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[Cold Crashing Waves]

CERSEI: MANIPULATIVE WORDS AND KISSES WAIT NEVERMIND

JAIME: WTF

CERSEI: NO

JAIME: ME WANT NOW FUCK

CERSEI: NO NO NO WAIT HMMM MAYBE OK WAIT ACTUALLY NO

JAIME: ME NO CARE FUCK

CERSEI: WAIT NO ASFHAKUHLSFHLAFNF FUCK IT OK

[William Campbell]

Again, trying to ignore the foolishness, but sex without consent is rape. That's not any different in the books.

I was answering the guy above you, but holding tight to fabric doesn't = sexual pleasure, unless pleasure is indicated in the scene.

Her sexual pleasure was indicated by holding tight to the fabric. I've seen this motiff in movies before, where during a sex scene, the camera pans to the female's hand that is holding tight to a blanket or something like that.

But anyway, I watched the scene enough to be conviced that Jaime wasn't raping her. She definitely kisses him.

[Seneti]

Speaking as a woman who has escaped rape attempts twice and who has met other women who really were raped in RL, I must say this scene was pretty hard to watch. My initial thought was "yes, this is definitely rape". Then I read the director's comments and GRRM's comments (see here: http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284) and decided to re-watch. My interpretation of that scene thus stands as such:

1) It definitely looks a lot like rape.

2) There are some elements of consent in there, such as Cersei kissing Jaime back and fumbling at this clothes, but they are hidden by unfortunate camera angles and quick cutting.

3) This is one of those scenes that would have profited from showing the end of it / the immediate aftermath. Would Cersei have said "yes" eventually. Would she have slapped him? Accused him? Brushed it off as if nothing has happened?

4) It did remind me of their previous interactions in the first season (just before throwing Bran out the window and just after finding out that he would live).

So now I'm on the fence about this one. I think the crucial thing here will be the aftermath, as in how Cersei and Jaime interact next week:

1) Will she be angry with him?

2) How will she react to physical proximity? Shy away? Draw closer? Don't care?

3) Will Jaime show remorse / awareness that what he did was - at best at least in part - wrong?

Ultimately, what is rape and what is not is in the eye of the "victim". I'll be watching for Cersei's reactions (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Also, concerning what this means for Jaime's character: Even in the books, he always came of as impulsively, dominant, IMO. At least until Cersei shut him out completely at which point he realized that the love between the two of them had become a lie and he lost all interest in her. Interestingly enough, every time we hear Jaime's thoughts on a woman other than Cersei being raped, he seems thoroughly angry and disgusted, but as soon as it comes to him and Cersei, her blows are kisses. :dunno: Double standard very much? So unless Cersei makes it clear next episode that she does see what happened in the sept as rape, I'm not gonna cry "character assassination".

[Joseph Nobles]

Consent to having sex with someone generally is not consent to have sex with someone any dang place ever. If she didn't consent to the time and the place, she didn't consent.

[Grayven]

If the intent was not to show a rape, the directors completely screwed that scene up. It doesn't matter what lines they give to Cersei next episode.. a huge percentage of the viewing audience saw forcible sex, and aren't talking about much else.

[Martin Lasarte]

Let's assume it was rape. Does it matter?

Don't get me wrong, rape is a hideous crime. But when it comes to evaluate Jaime as a character, does it really make a difference if he raped his sister or not? This is a guy who tried to murder a 10-year-old boy, impregnated his sister 3 times, murdered his king and countless (as he says himself) other people. The Jaime Lannister of the series strangled his own cousin Alton to death just to get out of a cage and stabbed Jory Cassel in the eye in the middle of a sword fight. Did we really need to see him rape Cersei to realize that this is not a good man?

[~DarkHorse~]

People aren't going to be analysing every detail of the scene so obviously it comes across as rape. The show does a good job at over-simplifying things and being less than subtle when needed e.g. "But you love him don't you" Cersei/Brienne scene.

I don't know why they would feel the need to have Cersei's consent being subtle? Bloody hell, she is anything but subtle when she submits in the books (gives Lysa a run for her money...just more quite about it).

It was a BIG mistake to have her carry on protesting and Jaime saying "I don't care." Viewers tend to focus on the words, not the subtle body language.

[William Campbell]

When I talked to my non-book reading friend, he thought the episode was great and didn't have a problem with the scene. He just saw it as an example of their ongoing dysfunctional (and creepy) relationship. So, so far, in my world, the non-internet world, the scene hasn't come off as a crime being commited against cersei. I'm sure cersei will not either, unless the writers are going to throw a curve ball.

[Shinjuku Thief]

But anyway, I watched the scene enough to be conviced that Jaime wasn't raping her. She definitely kisses him.

For goodness sake, what does kissing someone have to do with consenting to having sex?

In the television and movie storytelling paradigm where they hit you on the head with a sledgehammer to get a point across, there's no ambiguity in how the scene played out.

[Florina Laufeyson]

EDIT: Also, concerning what this means for Jaime's character: Even in the books, he always came of as impulsively, dominant, IMO. At least until Cersei shut him out completely at which point he realized that the love between the two of them had become a lie and he lost all interest in her. Interestingly enough, every time we hear Jaime's thoughts on a woman other than Cersei being raped, he seems thoroughly angry and disgusted, but as soon as it comes to him and Cersei, her blows are kisses. :dunno: Double standard very much? So unless Cersei makes it clear next episode that she does see what happened in the sept as rape, I'm not gonna cry "character assassination".

You. I like the cut of your jib and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Iron Hawk]

IRON HAWK HAS A THEORY!

Okay, I have never read the books, this is just a prediction. The rumours of the incestuous relationship is public knowledge. What if Jaime makes her pregnant? Robert is dead, so being pregnant now would be pretty hard to explain.

Just an idea.

As far as the whole rape debate goes, she definitely wanted it. I got the impression that Cersei certainly wanted and liked what was happening, but she didn't feel right about it. She didn't think the time or place was right, but she still wanted it anyways. She only said "no" and pushed Jaime away to make her feel better about herself, but deep down, she knew she really did want it.

That's just the way I felt when watching the scene.

This does make me worry though,; Tyrion wanted Jaime to serve as a witness. What if Jaime has to end up deciding to be loyal to Cersei or Tyrion?

[Fjordgazer]

Watched the scene again.

After Jaime goes to his knees with Cersei, and after saying "stop it" a few times, she definitely kisses him and touches his face. The next word she says is, "stop" but in a succumbing way.

I think the whole key to this scene is at the beginning when Cersei says, "Jaime, not here, please." She doesn't want sex "here," not I don't want sex with you.

The whole "it's not right" at the end isn't about not wanting sex, but not wanting to do it in a holy place with a dead son, and with the possibility of watchers nearby. The last frame shows her holding tight to the burial blanket or tapestry or whatever, which indicates sexual pleasure.

So, I vote no rape, just inappropriate creepy sex.

You explained it right.

Speaking as a woman who has escaped rape attempts twice and who has met other women who really were raped in RL, I must say this scene was pretty hard to watch. My initial thought was "yes, this is definitely rape". Then I read the director's comments and GRRM's comments (see here: http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284) and decided to re-watch. My interpretation of that scene thus stands as such:

1) It definitely looks a lot like rape.

2) There are some elements of consent in there, such as Cersei kissing Jaime back and fumbling at this clothes, but they are hidden by unfortunate camera angles and quick cutting.

3) This is one of those scenes that would have profited from showing the end of it / the immediate aftermath. Would Cersei have said "yes" eventually. Would she have slapped him? Accused him? Brushed it off as if nothing has happened?

4) It did remind me of their previous interactions in the first season (just before throwing Bran out the window and just after finding out that he would live).

So now I'm on the fence about this one. I think the crucial thing here will be the aftermath, as in how Cersei and Jaime interact next week:

1) Will she be angry with him?

2) How will she react to physical proximity? Shy away? Draw closer? Don't care?

3) Will Jaime show remorse / awareness that what he did was - at best at least in part - wrong?

Ultimately, what is rape and what is not is in the eye of the "victim". I'll be watching for Cersei's reactions (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Also, concerning what this means for Jaime's character: Even in the books, he always came of as impulsively, dominant, IMO. At least until Cersei shut him out completely at which point he realized that the love between the two of them had become a lie and he lost all interest in her. Interestingly enough, every time we hear Jaime's thoughts on a woman other than Cersei being raped, he seems thoroughly angry and disgusted, but as soon as it comes to him and Cersei, her blows are kisses. :dunno: Double standard very much? So unless Cersei makes it clear next episode that she does see what happened in the sept as rape, I'm not gonna cry "character assassination".

Pretty much my thoughts. First impression was "rape", but first impressions aren't always right.

If anything, the scene suffered from bad WRITING rather than directing. Try to watch it mute, shut off the initial prejudice and tell me if you see a rape footage.

Let's go further and try to honestly answer: would this footage fly as an *incontrovertible* piece of evidence for rape in a trial? I don't think so. The defense could argue several things.

EDIT: nice to see a person who has some actual experience with rape chime in. Now we only need an actual attorney or law student (Haven't seen anyone, among the hundreds of commenters of the episode, claim to be one in the 24 hours that have passed).

[Rhasgul]

Let's assume it was rape. Does it matter?

Don't get me wrong, rape is a hideous crime. But when it comes to evaluate Jaime as a character, does it really make a difference if he raped his sister or not? This is a guy who tried to murder a 10-year-old boy, impregnated his sister 3 times, murdered his king and countless (as he says himself) other people. The Jaime Lannister of the series strangled his own cousin Alton to death just to get out of a cage and stabbed Jory Cassel in the eye in the middle of a sword fight. Did we really need to see him rape Cersei to realize that this is not a good man?

Yes, it does matter. He is not the same man he was when he tried to murder that boy and such. He went on a huge internal trip while traveling with Brienne. At this point in the books, he is a changed man, who's only ties to his old self are his feelings for Cersei, which are manifested at Joff's corpse in consensual sex. He doesn't do anything "wrong" there, he has sex with her cause he has such an internal turmoil at that time. In the show however, he rapes her, and as you say; looks like he's falling back into what he used to be.

Jaime did a lot of things wrong, but he was becoming a better man. In the show imho they ruined this by having him actually "rape" Cersei.

Also, the fact that the last 2 appearances in the J-C-love-arc were the cold glances during the conversation with Brienne and Cersei rejecting Jaime don't help. Now it seems like Cersei kissed him in a moment of weakness and Jaime went to full out rape, having her repeating "no stop it" until the very end of the scene.

Ps: I watched it again with the GF tonight, and talked to 4 friends who also follow the show, a total of 5 Unsullied. Every single one of them thinks this was rape. If they'd go back and look for tiny hidden clues they might be a little confused at most, but for those that only watch the show, and not each episode 4-5 times like some of us, it's rape

[Fjordgazer]

Yes, it does matter. He is not the same man he was when he tried to murder that boy and such. He went on a huge internal trip while traveling with Brienne. At this point in the books, he is a changed man, who's only ties to his old self are his feelings for Cersei, which are manifested at Joff's corpse in consensual sex.

I don't know why so many people have problems understanding one thing: we get the impression Jaime is "gooder" after his wandering with Brienne because we read his thoughts.

EDIT: This is supposed to be a spoiler-free thread, right? I edited out something that might be a little too revealing.

[Rhasgul]

Let's go further and try to honestly answer: would this footage fly as an *incontrovertible* piece of evidence for rape in a trial? I don't think so. The defense could argue several things.

Yes, so much yes. If you'd show this tape to anyone not familiar with GoT and ask them to describe what happened, they'd say rape. Over the course of the event Cersei tells him to stop over 10 times, he tells her he doesn't care about 3 times. She is pounding her fist into his chest and pushing him away as he enters her. I think there are conflicted feelings about this WHEN you know the background for the books. For anyone without that knowledge, I think it would be an easy case.

e

I don't know why so many people have problems understanding one thing: we get the impression Jaime is "gooder" after his wandering with Brienne because we read his thoughts. The only change he goes through is getting disaffected with Cersei after a lot of reflection.

Let's just say we disagree on that one then... I, and I know a lot of people with me, believe that he has actually changed during the trip, not only distanced himself from Cersei. Old Jaime wouldn't have cared about keeping an oath to Catelyn. Old Jaime wouldn't have cared about saving Brienne. Old Jaime wouldn't even have started calling her by her name. Old Jaime imho was a completely different man

[William Campbell]

For goodness sake, what does kissing someone have to do with consenting to having sex?

In the television and movie storytelling paradigm where they hit you on the head with a sledgehammer to get a point across, there's no ambiguity in how the scene played out.

Her kissing him indicates that her words about stopping were pretense. This is besides the fact that Jaime has only one hand and would have a near impossible time forcing himself on her if she didn't really want him. Was the situation inappropriate, yes, was it creepy, yes, was a crime commited, no. Like someone said eariler, ultimately it's about Cersei's feelings, and who knows Cersei well enough to know Cersei's feelings; her lover, best friend (only friend), and brother, jaime lannister.

[Fjordgazer]

Yes, so much yes. If you'd show this tape to anyone not familiar with GoT and ask them to describe what happened, they'd say rape. Over the course of the event Cersei tells him to stop over 10 times, he tells her he doesn't care about 3 times. She is pounding her fist into his chest and pushing him away as he enters her. I think there are conflicted feelings about this WHEN you know the background for the books. For anyone without that knowledge, I think it would be an easy case.

I'll paraphrase myself: let's go find an actual attorney or law student and ask him. Your opinion is as good as mine.

[Moët]

This was my original quote...

---

"Of course a "misogynist society can be depicted in a lot of ways." The same statement can be made out any "type of society". That goes without saying.

Do D&D have to show as much sexual assault as they do?

Of course they do not.

However, it is a great error to not make the distinction between "the writers are depicting a misogynist society" and "the writers are misogynist".

A great and grievous error."

---

You then highlighted my statement "Do D&D have to show as much sexual assault as they do"... and you asked me if I think there is more violence on the show than there is in the books.

Clearly, you misunderstood what I was saying.

I was responding to a person who made the statement "There is more than one way to depict misogyny. D&D take the frat boy approach." This person was defending another commenter who said something along the lines of "The writers of this show are misogynists and they have disgraceful attitudes towards women". I was refuting them by saying there is a difference between writers being misogynist and writers depicting a misogynist society.

Does that clear things up, or do you still think I am criticizing D&D? (even though I am obviously defending them?)

I didn't misunderstand what you said. I only asked you a question, in response to that sentence. And no where did I ever disagree with you.

Overreact much?

[Fjordgazer]

One detail: Cersei clutches the blanket with her left hand. If she's being raped, why the hell wouldn't she try to use that hand to fight Jaime's maimed right hand? It does not compute. :) It's already been mentioned the kissing back and other visual details. Again, the scene suffered from clumsy writing. Change at least some of the little "no's" for some little "yes" and you have pretty much a scene from ASOS finely adapted.

[Rhasgul]

One detail: Cersei clutches the blanket with her left hand. If she's being raped, why the hell wouldn't she try to use that hand to fight Jaime's maimed right hand? It does not compute. :) It's already been mentioned the kissing back and other visual details. Again, the scene suffered from clumsy writing. Change at least some of the little "no's" for some little "yes" and you have pretty much a scene from ASOS finely adapted.

In the book she's practically begging him to fuck her, which is hardly what is happening here. I know what you mean, there are some little clues, but she DID try to push him away and such, so for people without the right background, it'll still be rape. Just go look at the "expectations"-thread and you'll see that all unsullied reactions to it are "shocked about jaime raping her". If you go look at online blogs that review the series, 90% of them are talking about rape.

Jaime has been trained in combat his entire life, Cersei was raised to be a queen and never lifted a hand. Honestly, even with one hand I'm pretty sure Jaime COULD have easily raped Cersei. I know that's not what happened, but it IS what it looked like to most people.