The Purple Wedding Conspiracy (long, long, long, long post)

[John Suburbs]

It makes no sense to say that it's risky to put the poison in wine but not in the pie.

In any event, arguing over the delivery mechanism ignores the surrounding context, where Joffrey's assassination makes sense and Tyrion's doesn't. Trying to focus the debate on the most "logical" delivery vehicle for the poison instead of the target is necessary for any "pie" theory, and presupposes that the target was Tyrion, which the text doesn't support at all.

I spent close to 3,000 words in the OP explaining why Tyrion makes the more logical target rather than Joffrey. Sure it's full of suppositions, but so is the theory that Lady O was so terrified of Joffrey that she had to kill him right away. We don't have an LO PoV, so we can't really know for sure. And I'm sorry, the "it's obvious" explanation that I keep getting doesn't cut it. Show me, textually or otherwise, where and when Joffrey was making any threatening moves toward Margy and where/when Margy and Lady O expressed even the slightest bit of concern over Joffrey. Is it just because they asked Sansa about it? Even then, no outward signs of distress from anyone.

If you want to infer that Lady O was indeed that afraid based on the Sansa conversation, admit that it's an inference and let's move on. But don't cite it as "proof" of anything.

With the wine vs. pie, at least, we have some simple logistics to work with. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how dropping a crystal over the rim of the three-foot chalice sitting on a table that is itself probably three feet off the ground is easier and less risky than tucking it into the front corner of a three-inch piece of pie sitting on a plate.

[falcotron]

Little slightly relevant did you know? The custom of clanking one's glasses, dates from the Roman era, where they would make sure their chalices clanked and their wine would mix; thus making sure one person wasn't poisoning the other. (just to point out that poison through wine is obvious and dangerous for the poisoner.)

First, you've got the urban legend wrong; it's supposed to be medieval Italians. Second, and more importantly, it's an urban legend. See Snopes. Third, and most importantly, if it were true it would actually prove the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

If the Romans created a custom of clinking glasses to prevent people using wine for poisoning, that would show that poisoning is not at all obvious, or dangerous to the poisoner, and the Romans had to create a ritual that made it more obvious and dangerous because too many people were taking advantage of the fact that it was easy and safe to get away with poisoning people's wine.

[Ygrain]

With the wine vs. pie, at least, we have some simple logistics to work with. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how dropping a crystal over the rim of the three-foot chalice sitting on a table that is itself probably three feet off the ground is easier and less risky than tucking it into the front corner of a three-inch piece of pie sitting on a plate.

That late in the feast, we had people standing and moving about, changing places, slipping off to the privy, servants were coming and going... the king and queen had just opened the wedding pie, every eye was on them or those thrice-damned doves. No one was watching the wine cup.”

And, while Tyrion had to climb his chair to access the chalice, it was placed on the table by Joff, within his, or any person of normal height, comfortable reach. Garlan and Leonette were seated right next to Tyrion, so the one closer to the chalice had ample opportunity. Besides,

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall.

The pie is placed right in front of Tyrion. He doesn't start eating and talks about leaving. He is apparently not going to eat the pie, so putting the poison in it makes zero sense. Plus, the pie is served only after the cutting when the main distracting moment is already over.

[Colonel Green]

I spent close to 3,000 words in the OP explaining why Tyrion makes the more logical target rather than Joffrey. Sure it's full of suppositions, but so is the theory that Lady O was so terrified of Joffrey that she had to kill him right away. We don't have an LO PoV, so we can't really know for sure. And I'm sorry, the "it's obvious" explanation that I keep getting doesn't cut it. Show me, textually or otherwise, where and when Joffrey was making any threatening moves toward Margy and where/when Margy and Lady O expressed even the slightest bit of concern over Joffrey. Is it just because they asked Sansa about it? Even then, no outward signs of distress from anyone.

If you want to infer that Lady O was indeed that afraid based on the Sansa conversation, admit that it's an inference and let's move on. But don't cite it as "proof" of anything.

You can "infer" that they were making inquiries, which corresponds exactly with Littlefinger's story. Martin even has Sansa independently come to the conclusion that the situation with Joffrey, Margaery and Loras is a power keg. There is precisely nothing to suggest the Tyrells were concerned about Tyrion.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I spent close to 3,000 words in the OP explaining why Tyrion makes the more logical target rather than Joffrey.

And we're still unconvinced. Bloody unfair, isn't it?

Sure it's full of suppositions, but so is the theory that Lady O was so terrified of Joffrey that she had to kill him right away.

Your theory. Nobody else says anything about Olenna being "terrified". I'm not sure she'd even know, how. If you're not convinced by your own theory, don't worry - neither am I.

We don't have an LO PoV, so we can't really know for sure. And I'm sorry, the "it's obvious" explanation that I keep getting doesn't cut it. Show me, textually or otherwise, where and when Joffrey was making any threatening moves toward Margy and where/when Margy and Lady O expressed even the slightest bit of concern over Joffrey.

The conversation between Sansa, Margaery and the Queen of Thorns has been brought up a dozen times already, including by you. Basically: Sansa tells them, with tears in her eyes, how insane, sadistic a monster Joffrey really is. The Tyrell gals seem a little concerned - but not very much. Not as though Margaery was on the path to relive Queen Rhaelle's personal hell (who's been the one to bring up that Olenna remembers well Aerys II's times? ah, yes: you). Rather as though Joffrey being a psychopathic bastard was either a minor, or fixable, nuisance.

Is it just because they asked Sansa about it? Even then, no outward signs of distress from anyone.

And that by itself is at least mildly interesting. "You're marrying Hannibal Lecter's dumbest, more vicious cousin, your fiance is a fucking monster!" "Ah, well, no biggie."

With the wine vs. pie, at least, we have some simple logistics to work with. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how dropping a crystal over the rim of the three-foot chalice sitting on a table that is itself probably three feet off the ground is easier and less risky than tucking it into the front corner of a three-inch piece of pie sitting on a plate.

Sorry, whom are we poisoning now? Joffrey or Tyrion? If it's Joffrey, then the competition is presumably between Joffrey's cup, Joffrey's plate, Joffrey's soup bowl, maybe Joffrey's silverware. If it's Tyrion, then, again, it's Tyrion's dishes and cutlery to consider. At no point there's a choice between poisoning Joffrey's cup and Tyrion's plate. Unless there was a killer who just wanted to poison someone at he feast, no matter who. Which would be an interesting spin, by the way.

You say, Tyrion was the target. His cup wasn't a three foot tall monstrosity. Well then, why don't you explain how it's better to poison one of 77 courses on his plate in hope he'll first, not notice anything, second, even eat that particular course, and not his wine cup? When it's fairly certain he'll drink and, which is also important, can be done by one person, without bringing a servant into the loop, which is a huge risk in itself.

[Ygrain]

I guess some more quotes might come in handy - they haven't been posted in a couple of pages, we might have forgotten how it goes:

“I want you to tell me the truth about this royal boy,” said Lady Olenna abruptly. “This Joffrey.”

Sansa’s fingers tightened round her spoon. The truth? I can’t. Don’t ask it, please, I can’t. “I... I... I...”

“You, yes. Who would know better? The lad seems kingly enough, I’ll grant you. A bit full of himself, but that would be his Lannister blood. We have heard some troubling tales, however. Is there any truth to them? Has this boy mistreated you?”

...

Ser Dontos had warned her to speak freely only in the godswood. “Joff... King Joffrey, he’s... His Grace is very fair and handsome, and... and as brave as a lion.”

“Yes, all the Lannisters are lions, and when a Tyrell breaks wind it smells just like a rose,” the old woman snapped. “But how kind is he? How clever? Has he a good heart, a gentle hand? Is he chivalrous as befits a king? Will he cherish Margaery and treat her tenderly, protect her honor as he would his own?”

“He will,” Sansa lied. “He is very... very comely.”

“You said that. You know, child, some say that you are as big a fool as Butterbumps here, and I am starting to believe them. Comely? I have taught my Margaery what comely is worth, I hope. Somewhat less than a mummer’s fart. Aerion Brightfire was comely enough, but a monster all the same. The question is, what is Joffrey?”

...

“My father always told the truth.” Sansa spoke quietly, but even so, it was hard to get the words out.

“Lord Eddard, yes, he had that reputation, but they named him traitor and took his head off even so.” The old woman’s eyes bore into her, sharp and bright as the points of swords.

“Joffrey,” Sansa said. “Joffrey did that. He promised me he would be merciful, and cut my father’s head off. He said that was mercy, and he took me up on the walls and made me look at it. The head. He wanted me to weep, but...” She stopped abruptly, and covered her mouth. I’ve said too much, oh gods be good, they’ll know, they’ll hear, someone will tell on me.

“Go on.” It was Margaery who urged. Joffrey’s own queen-to-be. Sansa did not know how much she had heard.

...

“Now, child, the truth. What sort of man is this Joffrey, who calls himself Baratheon but looks so very Lannister?”

“AND DOWN THE ROAD FROM HERE TO THERE. FROM HERE! TO THERE! THREE BOYS, A GOAT, AND A DANCING BEAR!”

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman’s sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. “A monster,” she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. “Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher’s boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He’s evil and cruel, my lady, it’s so. And the queen as well.”

Lady Olenna Tyrell and her granddaughter exchanged a look. “Ah” said the old woman, “that’s a pity.”

So. QoT repeatedly asks about Joffrey's character, insists on the answer, arranges for Butterbumps to make a distraction so that they could speak without fear of being overheard, both her and Margaey intently listen, but they are doing it apparently just for shits and giggles. The fact that they don't show their emotions means that they are unconcerned, and when they exchange looks it is just that they eyes met incidentally. No scheme going on, apparently.

“Margaery, please,” she said, “you mustn’t.” It was hard to get the words out. “You mustn’t marry him. He’s not like he seems, he’s not. He’ll hurt you.”

“I shouldn’t think so.” Margaery smiled confidently. “It’s brave of you to warn me, but you need not fear. Joff’s spoiled and vain and I don’t doubt that he’s as cruel as you say, but Father forced him to name Loras to his Kingsguard before he would agree to the match. I shall have the finest knight in the Seven Kingdoms protecting me night and day, as Prince Aemon protected Naerys. So our little lion had best behave, hadn’t he?” She laughed, and said, “Come, sweet sister, let’s race back to the river. It will drive our guards quite mad.” And without waiting for an answer, she put her heels into her horse and flew.

She is so brave, Sansa thought, galloping after her... and yet, her doubts still gnawed at her. Ser Loras was a great knight, all agreed. But Joffrey had other Kingsguard, and gold cloaks and red cloaks besides, and when he was older he would command armies of his own. Aegon the Unworthy had never harmed Queen Naerys, perhaps for fear of their brother the Dragonknight... but when another of his Kingsguard fell in love with one of his mistresses, the king had taken both their heads.

Ser Loras is a Tyrell, Sansa reminded herself. That other knight was only a Toyne. His brothers had no armies, no way to avenge him but with swords. Yet the more she thought about it all, the more she wondered. Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps as long as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does... The realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be war inside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red.

Sansa was surprised that Margaery did not see it too. She is older than me, she must be wiser. And her father, Lord Tyrell, he knows what he is doing, surely. I am just being silly.

Nope, no plan to solve the obvious impending issue. None at all.

Perhaps Margaery did not believe her. Joff always played the perfect knight with her, as once he had with Sansa.

[John Suburbs]

But why the rush to kill Joffrey? Why at such a big public event like the wedding? And why in a way that places Margaery at such great risk from the poison, whether she knew it was there or not?

From LO's perspective -- a player's perspective -- wouldn't it make more sense to let the wedding take place, get one or even two heirs to the throne firmly in hand, and then if Joffrey starts to act up, get rid of him later? Lady O is not a frightened woman, nor does she act on stories or other people's fears. She can see with her own eyes that Joffrey is not hostile to Margaery yet, so why risk the entire 10,000-year Tyrell dynasty just because something bad might happen to Margy in the future?

Tyrion was an immediate threat to both LO's and LF's plan for the north and the eventual control of the IT. The poison could just as easily been slipped into the pie as the wine. I contend that both theories are plausible, but you say the Tyrion/pie notion is completely impossible -- no way, no how. And then as 'proof,' you cite conversations between people and a whole of supposition about the poison and the servers, etc.

All of the statements and PoV observations that we're dealing with -- LO's, Margy's, Sansa's, LF's -- are open to interpretation. But you guys declare them either lies or truth depending on what suits your preconceived conclusion, and then claim it all as unimpeachable fact. It's not.

[Ygrain]

But why the rush to kill Joffrey? Why at such a big public event like the wedding? And why in a way that places Margaery at such great risk from the poison, whether she knew it was there or not?

She knew, from the very beginning. Notice the setting of the dialogue I quoted: it's Olenna and Margaery. Olenna schooled her, for all her sweetness, she has something of Olenna in her, she is clever, and she handwaves Sansa's concerns with an explanation which Sansa immediately senses as wrong.

And, she is in no risk at all. For someone clever, with the aid of her family, it's not a problem to come up with something to make Joffrey drink first, and then they need just a little delay, the poison is effective almost immediately. You are stuck too much with the Cressen prologue where he dies because he makes a very desperate move to get Melisandre drink the wine from a cup that is not hers. With Joffrey, there is no such obstacle, especially not at his own wedding.

- Which is one of the reasons why the wedding. A big public occasion like that provides a lot of convenient distractions, people are not sober and therefore less observant, and there are a lot of suspects. If Joffrey was poisoned at a small family dinner, the present Tyrells would immediately become suspect.

From LO's perspective -- a player's perspective -- wouldn't it make more sense to let the wedding take place, get one or even two heirs to the throne firmly in hand, and then if Joffrey starts to act up, get rid of him later? Lady O is not a frightened woman, nor does she act on stories or other people's fears. She can see with her own eyes that Joffrey is not hostile to Margaery yet, so why risk the entire 10,000-year Tyrell dynasty just because something bad might happen to Margy in the future?

One doesn't have to be frightened to want to prevent harm to their family. Plus, even without Sansa's information on Joffrey's character, Olenna notices that he is full of himself, which suggests difficulties in handling him in the future. Furthermore, it's not just about Margaery but Loras, as well - as Sansa muses, should Joffrey hurt Margaery, Loras would kill him, and that would be disastrous for the Tyrells - there is no way the Lannisters would let Margaery keep any power, and the Tyrells would either have to submit, or start a war. Margaery's children then could be skipped and Tommen become the new king.

Furthermore, if Margaery is bedded, the alliance is sealed and the Tyrells cannot back out any more should the Lannisters lose.

Tyrion was an immediate threat to both LO's and LF's plan for the north and the eventual control of the IT. The poison could just as easily been slipped into the pie as the wine. I contend that both theories are plausible, but you say the Tyrion/pie notion is completely impossible -- no way, no how. And then as 'proof,' you cite conversations between people and a whole of supposition about the poison and the servers, etc.

Everyone and their mother knew that Tyrion's marriage wasn't consumed so no, not an imminent threat.

[Lord Martin]

How could a single piece of pie be poisoned? Are you suggesting a crystal was shoved into the crust after it was served to Tyrion but before Joff ate it? How is that less noticeable than dropping it into the chalice? The hand motion might be somewhat shorter given the height of the cup. But once the crystal is in the wine, there is no evidence. In the pie, there'd still be the hole or the crystal would be visible.

As for the time lag, a full belly, age and health would account for the difference between Joff and Cressan. Joff had been eating all day at the feast, Cressan was on an empty stomach. Also, the body systems that flush out toxins wear down with age, thats why a glass of wine or a cocktail will affect a 70 year old much more than a 17 year old.

I don't normally believe LF, but I do in this instance.

[Mithras]

“Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons,” the waif told her, as she was grinding some with a mortar and pestle. “A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines.”

“The boy is fond of sweets, is he not?”

“Sweets?” said Colemon.

“Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that?”

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream.

I think the Strangler can easily be dissolved in the lemon cream just like sweetsleep.

[Ygrain]

.

I think the Strangler can easily be dissolved in the lemon cream just like sweetsleep.

Sure. And we would have Tyrion wondering why he is the single person getting blueberry cream.

ETA: Take a look at dissolving Condy's crystals - blackish purple crystals, rather small. They put in a spoongul but note how the tiny bits leave an intensely coloured trail. A single piece, not even a millimetre in diameter, is enough to turn a glass of water purple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Ap77_8Qhs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADozNK4j-8A

[Colonel Green]

I think the Strangler can easily be dissolved in the lemon cream just like sweetsleep.

1) Based on what? There's no indication those things have similar properties.

2) As noted, that would discolour it.

3) Lemon cream would be ladled from a common serving bowl, so there would be no way to poison the lemon cream without poisoning everybody else served from it.

[Chebyshov]

<snip>

One doesn't have to be frightened to want to prevent harm to their family. Plus, even without Sansa's information on Joffrey's character, Olenna notices that he is full of himself, which suggests difficulties in handling him in the future. Furthermore, it's not just about Margaery but Loras, as well - as Sansa muses, should Joffrey hurt Margaery, Loras would kill him, and that would be disastrous for the Tyrells - there is no way the Lannisters would let Margaery keep any power, and the Tyrells would either have to submit, or start a war. Margaery's children then could be skipped and Tommen become the new king.

Furthermore, if Margaery is bedded, the alliance is sealed and the Tyrells cannot back out any more should the Lannisters lose.

Look. There's always going to be reasonable doubt involving the logistics of wine poisoning vs. pie poisoning (as it already was in many previous threads). I think given the text and what we know of the strangler, wine is highly likely whereas the pie has problems, but I don't think that's the best argument to be made.

The best point is that of the Tyrells' motivation to poison. Ygrain's many quotes involving that which the QoT and Marg seem chiefly concerned point all fingers to Joffrey as their target. Additionally, as I've argued before, the timing of the poisoning happening when it did was for the reasons that I've bolded in Ygrain's post. They needed Marg to be as close to queenship as she could without being tied down to the Lannisters.

I know you're fond of your theory about Tyrion, and I truly applaud your effort in defending it. What you've posted is an amazing amount of work and it was a very interesting read. :bowdown:

However, you yourself pointed out that it's convoluted, and your only defense was that "that's how most conspiracies go," even though we are able to clearly see the Tyrells' rationale (and by Tyrells' I mean QoT and Marg, with the help of others) behind poisoning Joffrey as well as LF's motivation to pin it on Tyrion. The reason your theory seems convoluted is because it is. You are overly complicating something that is fairly clear in the text.

Additionally, as someone with a scientific background, I object to "And in the end, I turn it back on the skeptics: Is there anyone out there who can disprove this theory, not with opinions regarding the poison or the mindsets of the key players, but with incontrovertible facts and logic" because a failure to disprove is not the same as finding a theory to make sense. We have no way of disproving that there is an invisible pink teacup orbiting the Earth, but does that mean we should subscribe to that belief?

[Mulled Wino]

I spent close to 3,000 words in the OP explaining why Tyrion makes the more logical target rather than Joffrey. Sure it's full of suppositions, but so is the theory that Lady O was so terrified of Joffrey that she had to kill him right away. We don't have an LO PoV, so we can't really know for sure. And I'm sorry, the "it's obvious" explanation that I keep getting doesn't cut it. Show me, textually or otherwise, where and when Joffrey was making any threatening moves toward Margy and where/when Margy and Lady O expressed even the slightest bit of concern over Joffrey. Is it just because they asked Sansa about it? Even then, no outward signs of distress from anyone.

If you want to infer that Lady O was indeed that afraid based on the Sansa conversation, admit that it's an inference and let's move on. But don't cite it as "proof" of anything.

With the wine vs. pie, at least, we have some simple logistics to work with. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how dropping a crystal over the rim of the three-foot chalice sitting on a table that is itself probably three feet off the ground is easier and less risky than tucking it into the front corner of a three-inch piece of pie sitting on a plate.

This has been answered about 1000000x in this thread. The poisoning didn't have to happen at that time, it just worked out that way.

[Mulled Wino]

But why the rush to kill Joffrey? Why at such a big public event like the wedding? And why in a way that places Margaery at such great risk from the poison, whether she knew it was there or not?

From LO's perspective -- a player's perspective -- wouldn't it make more sense to let the wedding take place, get one or even two heirs to the throne firmly in hand, and then if Joffrey starts to act up, get rid of him later? Lady O is not a frightened woman, nor does she act on stories or other people's fears. She can see with her own eyes that Joffrey is not hostile to Margaery yet, so why risk the entire 10,000-year Tyrell dynasty just because something bad might happen to Margy in the future?

Tyrion was an immediate threat to both LO's and LF's plan for the north and the eventual control of the IT. The poison could just as easily been slipped into the pie as the wine. I contend that both theories are plausible, but you say the Tyrion/pie notion is completely impossible -- no way, no how. And then as 'proof,' you cite conversations between people and a whole of supposition about the poison and the servers, etc.

All of the statements and PoV observations that we're dealing with -- LO's, Margy's, Sansa's, LF's -- are open to interpretation. But you guys declare them either lies or truth depending on what suits your preconceived conclusion, and then claim it all as unimpeachable fact. It's not.

Obviously you meant to add "Other than GRRM himself speaking words completely contradictory to your theory. Not to mention that there were about a zillion other times to poison Tyrion besides at the wedding.

[Hrafntýr]

It's a minor point, really, but on the issue of potential discoloration caused by the Strangler in pigeon pie, and whether it would be obvious: since I've never eaten pigeon pie, I did a google image search, and there's quite a range of "natural" coloration for a pigeon pie. It would seem to be in many cases rather dark in color. We aren't given a description of the pigeon pie served to Tyrion, other than that it is "well and truly cooked," so it is more than possible that the pigeon pie served to Tyrion is dark in color, masking the color of the Strangler.

[John Suburbs]

This has been answered about 1000000x in this thread. The poisoning didn't have to happen at that time, it just worked out that way.

Sorry, I didn't phrase my earlier point as clearly as I should have.

My argument is not that the wine theory isn't possible, or even plausible, but that its supporters keep insisting that it is the only way it could have happened and that the only explanation for the murder is that the Tyrell's plotted with LF to remove Joffrey because they were afraid he was going to hurt Margy. There is no recognition of the fact that the Joffrey/wine theory is based on just as many assumptions, suppositions and interpretations of events, conversations, etc., as any other theory.

Further, their reasoning tends to follow this path: We know that Lady O killed Joffrey because she was afraid for Margy, therefore any statement of theirs to the contrary must be a lie, or else why would they kill him?

So when I point out that others have not fully explained themselves, it's not that they haven't raised their argument up to the level of possibility, but why do they continue to insist that it is the only possibility?

And as an aside, if the poison was in the wine, it had to have been added between the last time Joffrey drank from the chalice and did not die (just before the pie cutting) and the time he started choking. If Margaery was anywhere near the chalice during that time, I can't find any mention of it. In fact, she's calling Joffrey back to the table after that first long drink, so I don't see how she could be the actual poisoner of either the wine or the pie.

As to the other stuff about GR's statements and why Tyrion at the wedding, I've covered that ad nauseam. Check the OP.

[Ygrain]

My argument is not that the wine theory isn't possible, or even plausible, but that its supporters keep insisting that it is the only way it could have happened and that the only explanation for the murder is that the Tyrell's plotted with LF to remove Joffrey because they were afraid he was going to hurt Margy. There is no recognition of the fact that the Joffrey/wine theory is based on just as many assumptions, suppositions and interpretations of events, conversations, etc., as any other theory.

Sorry but wrong. A theory that disregards huge chunks of textual evidence is in no way as good as a theory in which all the chunks fit and none contradicts.

And as an aside, if the poison was in the wine, it had to have been added between the last time Joffrey drank from the chalice and did not die (just before the pie cutting) and the time he started choking. If Margaery was anywhere near the chalice during that time, I can't find any mention of it. In fact, she's calling Joffrey back to the table after that first long drink, so I don't see how she could be the actual poisoner of either the wine or the pie.

You cannot find it because it's not there. Margaery being on the scheme =/= Margaery being the poisoner herself. It couldn't be QoT herself, either, because she is very small, the fact that is noted several times, and we know that Tyrion couldn't even reach the chalice without standing on his seat. QoT was the brain of the scheme, and the hand was someone of normal height, and close to the wine during the cutting. That leaves two possible candidates, Garlan and his wife Leonette. Garlan is mentioned several times and leaving an impression of a decent guy, which, of course, may have been a sham. Or, he is a decent guy and the scheme is purely the work of the Tyrell ladies, and the hand was Leonette's.

[Greywolf2375]

“Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons,” the waif told her, as she was grinding some with a mortar and pestle. “A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines.”

“The boy is fond of sweets, is he not?”

“Sweets?” said Colemon.

“Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that?”

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream.

I think the Strangler can easily be dissolved in the lemon cream just like sweetsleep.

That's a valid point...if they had used Sweetsleep. They didn't however, they used Strangler which we're shown even earlier is delivered via liquid to dissolve.

But why the rush to kill Joffrey? Why at such a big public event like the wedding? And why in a way that places Margaery at such great risk from the poison, whether she knew it was there or not?

Why the rush? This doesn't seem very rushed - this seems very well planned out and deliberate in the actions taken. Why did they want it done quickly & why at the wedding? Well, as brutal as the QoT can be, I don't really see her wanting to risk her granddaughter having even one night with Joffrey. And why the wedding? Well, as we were told...there's a large number of distractions - some planned and some impromptu. There are also a a good number of suspects that it can be attributed to before they ever get to someone named "Tyrell".

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

You cannot find it because it's not there. Margaery being on the scheme =/= Margaery being the poisoner herself. It couldn't be QoT herself, either, because she is very small, the fact that is noted several times, and we know that Tyrion couldn't even reach the chalice without standing on his seat. QoT was the brain of the scheme, and the hand was someone of normal height, and close to the wine during the cutting. That leaves two possible candidates, Garlan and his wife Leonette. Garlan is mentioned several times and leaving an impression of a decent guy, which, of course, may have been a sham. Or, he is a decent guy and the scheme is purely the work of the Tyrell ladies, and the hand was Leonette's.

Or, Garlan is a decent, nice fella and he poisoned Joffrey. People have hidden depths. Manderly, for example, is an amiable, cheerful fatso, but can also be a scary and cold-blooded SOB with the best of them. And Garlan's a big man, Baratheon-sized actually, so if height is the issue here - he's got it.