Will S+T=HLS?

[juanml82]

Actually, House Lannister is supposedly only related to Lann the Clever (Age of Heroes) through the female line. I think we are dealing with legends, but Lann was "blood of the First Men" while House Lannister are Andals. Supposedly, a female descendent of Lann married an Andal and created House Lannister. So, House Lannstark might be history repeating itself.

The last time we saw great Houses replaced was merely 300 hundred years ago when Houses Tyrell and Baratheon came to replace houses Gardener and Durrandon. Or, perhaps only 14 years ago when Baratheon replaced Targaryen in King's Landing. Martin means for the events of A Song of Ice and Fire to be borderlin apocalyptic, and I imagine more than one great house is going to be displaced by story's end.

And why I like forming a new House, it could be Lannhalfman, is it lets there be continuation from the the legendary founder, Lann, while specifically refuting the more recent Tywin figure and his legacy. Because even when the great houses were replaced last time, there was still some continuation of the line. House Tyrell is descendent from Garth Greenhands, while House Baratheon was founded when Orys married the last Storm King's daughter.

But those Houses went extinct because their last members died. In this case, we have a heir (and plenty of surviving family members) alive.

[Snows Queen]

I love reading all these theories readers have come up with. There are many situations in the books that I did not connect or pick up on until I read about them on this forum. I have now read the series 4 times and understood a lot of new things with every read. I am impressed again and again by GRRM's writing and story telling abilities. I am amazed at the depth of these "theories". There are many theories I don't agree with, but I still enjoy reading and thinking about all these ideas. (I enjoyed reading this theory and the ideas from others whether they agreed with it or not. I like hearing ALL the ideas.)

[the conquoring bastard25]

House Gardner maybe extinticed in the male line but in the female line that's a different story.

House Gardner through the florent line and Tyrell line is still going

The same with the stormland's main house it's through the female line that the genes are still going strong. If Stannis, Gendry and Edric storm were to drop dead in the first page of the next book, the line still continues through the female Shireen and Mya Stone. So does the claim, through the female line it still works.

Also who's to say that all of those Lannisters and it's sub branches are going to survive?

I've got money on it that those sub branches of house lannister are going to be done for.

Tyrion is the logical choose for whom ever sits the throne next to be the best choice to lead house lannister. With the marriage still intact it's always going to be a hindrance for Sansa to claim her birth right but what Tywin thought would be a good marriage and way into the North , could very well have to opposite effect. Instead of the lannisters getting their hands on the north, the starks get there hands on the west. Just one more thing to make Tywin Lannister roll over in his grave.

[Petyr Patter]

Petyr Patter you are a brilliant human being.

It's been bugging me about some hanging plot points or possible plots that I think have to move the plot forward.

...

What do you think?

I try to avoid specific train of events, because getting one event wrong means the entire train derails. This is certainly evident in your theory. Thoughts in bullet form, meant as discussion not critique.

• The Lords of the Vale fought for Jon Arryn with Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. Many of those same lords are still alive, most notably Yohn Royce. Lysa loudly blamed the Lannisters for Jon's death, and between Robert's suspicious death and Eddard's outright execution, events looked like a deliberate attempt by the Lannisters to seize power at the expense of Jon, Eddard, and Robert.
• However, Lysa insisted the stay out of the War of the 5 Kings. Notably, "Baratheon" made up 3 of the sides, meaning the right side to join wasn't clear making it hard to chose a side in the absence of strong leadership. In contrast, Lysa argued neutrality. We may be seeing a joining of the Starks and Baratheons soon, plus with Lysa out of the picture and an unpopular Lannister man calling the shots, I think the Vale is looking for an excuse to break away once again. Or, at least Royce is, and he commands the most men and other lords look to him for guidance.
• That being stated, I do think Tyrion has unfinished business in the Vale. He promised the hillsmen the Vale of Arryn, and also promised the jailer whose name I forget the "rest of his reward." Finally, Sansa is there. So, I do see him ending up there, somehow.
• However, I don't think he gets control over any dragons. Things never go that well for Tyrion. My best guess is the Dragonhorn works and gives the two in Meereen to Victarian. Instead, Tyrion decides to try to race back to Westeros to warn people of a dumb Iron Born reaver now has dragons.
• Meanwhile, I don't think the brotherhood has the organization to pull off two or three Trojan Horses simultaneously. I suspect Tom of Seven did tell Edmure that the brotherhood was looking to help, and that we will see more of them. However, I leave the capturing of Casterly Rock itself to Tyrion, probably in the last book. Sort of Lann the Clever once again tricking the Casterlies (Lannsiters) out of their Rock... probably using his time as the Rock's plumber. Hey, wasn't this a movie with Sean Connery and Nicholas Cage?
• I am firmly of the opinion Jon will never be more than Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, though he may very well be the greatest hero in the story by the time everything's done. He said his vows, was already given one chance to get out of them by Stannis. Martin does not give his characters do overs. Instead, I look to Bran to be Lord of Winterfell and Stannis as being the power to negotiate with towards the end. Mind you, I don't think Stannis will still be alive at the end, but I think his tide will rise once again.
• Still, I do hope Jon and Tyrion's friendship gets a chance to play out once more. Indeed, I think Martin was setting something up when Tyrion pondered what he should do after losing his trial and murdering his father: Go to the Wall to atone for his sins, or go to Dorne to make new sins. At some point, I think he returns.

So, those are my thoughts right now. I, mostly, won't be disappointed if wrong.

[LordStoneheart]

Yeah it would. Killing Tywin Lannister isn't murder, it is merely a good start. However, patricide is notorious crime throughout much of history. Westeros has a very big taboo on kinslaying, defined mostly by blood. In legends, the son of Bael the Bard was cursed for killing his father even though he never knew the man.

I used to feel the same way about kinslaying but I've realized how superstitious and dumb it is to consider any form of cold blooded murder worse than others. It might lift a weight off Tyrion's back to know he's not a technical kinslayer but the hate and other emotions he felt when killing Tywin were still there and won't change because of a Luke, Your Father Was A Targ reveal.

[To catch a Lannister]

There is a zero percent chance Sansa and Tyrion ever mate

[the conquoring bastard25]

I'm not tied to the theory by any means. It was just because of your idea of the marriage staying in place, my mind jumped from on thing to another, and then I started seeing parallels along with connections.

It's one of the ways that the story could go... Though some of the textual stuff that I've been picking at right now as I'm re reading AFFC and I started thinking about what could the Brotherhood be up to right now. From there I looked at the scene between Jamie and Edmure after the siege was done and he was very pleased with himself.

Then the knights that were headed to the wall. Jamie mentions in his thought about a time when he was a squire he had act as a human raven to get a message to the blackfish I think. That got me to thinking about the knights on there way to the wall.

That got me to thinking about the Robb and his will. If I was the blackfish and I was intend on seeing that my King and nephew's last wish were cared out I would insure that his heir found out about his kingship. So that explained the knights on there way to the Wall. Then I started considering the route that they would take which would take them past MaidenPoole under armed guard to ensure they reached their destination by the Kingslayer himself. Then I thought about where they might have to head after. I have thought about them making a stop off at Runestones. The fact that Sansa gave the game away to Randa Royce on the way to the Bloody Gate and Petyr even says that she's clever and is often away on her father's business. Got me to thinking that if the Vale was going to send anyone on a mission to feel out Jon Snow she is the likely choice.

As a widow she could take her brother a knight of the blood gate that served under the Blackfish and is related distantly to Jon Snow though his great aunts marriage into that house.

It wouldn't be just under the Brotherhood though. It would be a joint force of the remaining troops of the Northern foot, Trident lords and whatever they can muster, the brotherhood, the smallfolk that can easy lead the men astray with false reports. Some of the Western lords and heirs such as Crakenhall is on the search of the Mad Dog. He's headed back to Darry which is close to Duskendale if I'm not mistaken.

Lady Stoneheart is doing the same thing that Mance did at the wall. She using feints and guerilla attacks to bled the western strength. Making them attack in small groups instead of in force. Picking at them bleeding them every step of the way. One minute she's got her mad dog attacking in Saltpan, the next she's hanging men close to Fairmarket. She's using smoke attacks to make the Lannisters stay in the in the Trident while the siege of Riverrun is still under way. The Blackfish(his reputation is his shield) planned it that way, he was only going to surrender to Jamie Lannister. The fact that the blackfish and his stubborn nature works to his benefit. Look at what Vance the lord of pink maiden tells Jamie that Blackwood would only surrender to Jamie. Then isn't nice that there is another siege underway that not only takes Jamie in the opposite direction of where the attacks are going to be but he'll be too far away to do anything to help.

But look at the house that are being used to be hold outs for the last siege. The blackwoods and brackens, on the surface it makes sense, they hate each other and they are the natural choice as their lands border on each others. Yet what if there was another purpose make Jamie come to Raventree hall. Then look at the advice that he gets while there, they both parrot the same speak about don't trust the other and that he would do well to get a hostage. Yet Jamie already has plenty of squires not to mention that 3 of them are trident lord sons. Spies in Jamie's very camp hearing everything, learning plans.... Real suspect.

We will have to disagree to agree about Jon as by the end of the story I see Jon as king. That's just the way I see it, not to mention the Foreshadowing.

When Jamie sends out his lord father from Kings Landing, there are 50 knights, One the lord of Haveford (one of the targets I said the trident could take over), Plumm, Brax ( lore of Ashford) and Baneford (castle of the same name) with 400 extra men. How hard is it so send maybe 50 men to slip in with 400? Get lost in a sea of Lannister men especially if you already have the clothing of the enemie? Brianne, Jamie and Arya all have seen naked men in the Riverlands.

[Raksha 2014]

A potential problem to the founding or continuation of House Lannstark is the issue of Tyrion's dwarfism. If it is genetic (as are, I believe, at least some kinds of real dwarfism), then Sansa has a chance of dying in childbirth because of the physical difficulties in delivering an infant with an oversized head, given the state of medical knowledge in Westeros. Even if she has a healthy son first, if her second or third child is a dwarf and kills her with his/her birth, most of the other Great Houses, if not all (and even the lesser houses) would not want to give their daughters in marriage to House Lannstark to risk death, or accept brides from House Lannstark who might bring dwarf children into their house.

If Sansa manages to produce a normally sized son or two, they might father dwarves themselves, which would damage the reputation of House Lannstark. Sadly, dwarves are normally despised or killed or mocked throughout GRRM's world.

The only chance of House Lannstark surviving the genetic consequences of its founding father being a dwarf would be for Sansa to take another blond Lannister as a lover to father her children, preferably a distant cousin, with Tyrion's consent. But I don't know how that would work out.

[Woman of War]

Actually babies with achondroplasia are not so very different from "normal" babies at birth and the size of the head may not be so much larger than with average babies where the range of "normality" is indeed quite a few centimetres. It happened, and still happens quite frequently that dwarfism or achondroplasia is only diagnosed weeks or months after birth. With a size of head lethal for mother and child no baby with achondroplasia would ever have been born safely in a time before cesarians. Joanna might just as well have died from childbed fever but Cersei as child still had no clear idea about cause and consequence here: the monster killed the mother! And yet Penny's mother had two kids with dwarfism.

People of the books' timesetting had little clues about heredity of dwarfism. Tyrion himself never offered any proof since he was the son of of a good looking tall man.

[Petyr Patter]

A potential problem to the founding or continuation of House Lannstark is the issue of Tyrion's dwarfism. If it is genetic (as are, I believe, at least some kinds of real dwarfism), then Sansa has a chance of dying in childbirth because of the physical difficulties in delivering an infant with an oversized head, given the state of medical knowledge in Westeros. Even if she has a healthy son first, if her second or third child is a dwarf and kills her with his/her birth, most of the other Great Houses, if not all (and even the lesser houses) would not want to give their daughters in marriage to House Lannstark to risk death, or accept brides from House Lannstark who might bring dwarf children into their house.

If Sansa manages to produce a normally sized son or two, they might father dwarves themselves, which would damage the reputation of House Lannstark. Sadly, dwarves are normally despised or killed or mocked throughout GRRM's world.

The only chance of House Lannstark surviving the genetic consequences of its founding father being a dwarf would be for Sansa to take another blond Lannister as a lover to father her children, preferably a distant cousin, with Tyrion's consent. But I don't know how that would work out.

Rebuttal:

• There are over 200 "types" of dwarfism. It is not entirely clear which type Tyrion has. Meaning, it might not be genetic. My own crack pot theory is he caught a case of greyscale in the womb, which longterm stunted his growth and made his pregnancy problematic, but gave him immunity.

I tried to look up "dwarf pregnancy," but mostly found pregnant dwarfs. Regardless, I don't think a future little person turns pregnancy anymore problematic than it already is. Didn't Penny discuss memories of her mother?

Even if we assume Mendelian genetics, and that the gene for dwarfism is dominant, then any of Tyrion's children have only a 50% chance of inheriting the gene. If it is recessive, then 0% of the children will be little people, though they will all carry the recessive gene. This assumes Tyrion's partner is normal height.

Finally, there is no particular reason to believe Martin holds to Mendelian genetics. I suppose this could go either way, considering how the Baratheon black hair ALWAYS wins out.

No matter what, the author will tell the story he wants to tell regardless of what The Lancet thinks of it.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I don't understand the fascination with starting new Houses/ names.

Will Sansa and Tyrion end up together? I doubt it, but maybe

Will Sansa and Tyrion rule over Winter Fell or Casterly Rock? Together? I don't think so but maybe. I bet there is a good chance one of them will do one of these.

Will they create a new House/ take a new name. No.

[Wolf Girl Arya]

I have to say I'm very intrigued by this theory and I definitely think it's plausible.

Granted it fits with the two endings I've had an inkling for, for Sansa (either choosing to stay married to Tyrion or opting to become a Septa so she can't ever be used for her claim-either way she's exercising true agency which has been a big part of her story arc).

I don't think their marriage is going to be so easily dissolved right now, given the fact they're both accused of regicide. We also have a zealot High Septon in place and it's bound to affect things beyond the Margaery/Cersei feud, in my opinion. Unless there is solid proof of one of them being dead, I think anyone would be hard pressed to convince him to annul the marriage (not to mention, to get him to not turn them over for regicide). Other marriages might happen in the mean time but as one is shown to be alive and well, I believe said marriage(s) would be declared invalid.

If they continue their marriage and/or relationship, it would mirror Cat and Ned (forced together due to circumstances of war, etc.)

If I read correctly (and forgive me if I didn't) then the main cadet houses we know of are from Stark and Lannister lines, so Sansa and Tyrion starting their own house would fit with the this.

I definitely see a lot of thematic potential in this.

Sidenote: I (almost) totally agree with Arya getting Harrenhal. Hopefully it hasn't already been done but I'm about to start an analysis of AGoT, Chpt 32 (the Arya cat chase chapter) and seeing if it maps out her whole journey. I'll keep my eyes peeled for any references to that. :-)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

That would be Lannistark, not Lannstark.

[Petyr Patter]

I don't understand the fascination with starting new Houses/ names.

Will Sansa and Tyrion end up together? I doubt it, but maybe

Will Sansa and Tyrion rule over Winter Fell or Casterly Rock? Together? I don't think so but maybe. I bet there is a good chance one of them will do one of these.

Will they create a new House/ take a new name. No.

It is hardly an obsession, and there is no reason for it not to be plausible. Finding "secret Targaryans" is more of an obsession for this forum. Regardless, I gave my reasons for supporting this theory as a way for Sansa and Tyrion to reconcile their marriage, and get the ultimate revenge on Tywin by removing his name (or at least half of it) from Casterly Rock.

I have to say I'm very intrigued by this theory and I definitely think it's plausible.

Granted it fits with the two endings I've had an inkling for, for Sansa (either choosing to stay married to Tyrion or opting to become a Septa so she can't ever be used for her claim-either way she's exercising true agency which has been a big part of her story arc).

I don't think their marriage is going to be so easily dissolved right now, given the fact they're both accused of regicide. We also have a zealot High Septon in place and it's bound to affect things beyond the Margaery/Cersei feud, in my opinion. Unless there is solid proof of one of them being dead, I think anyone would be hard pressed to convince him to annul the marriage (not to mention, to get him to not turn them over for regicide). Other marriages might happen in the mean time but as one is shown to be alive and well, I believe said marriage(s) would be declared invalid.

If they continue their marriage and/or relationship, it would mirror Cat and Ned (forced together due to circumstances of war, etc.)

If I read correctly (and forgive me if I didn't) then the main cadet houses we know of are from Stark and Lannister lines, so Sansa and Tyrion starting their own house would fit with the this.

I definitely see a lot of thematic potential in this.

Sidenote: I (almost) totally agree with Arya getting Harrenhal. Hopefully it hasn't already been done but I'm about to start an analysis of AGoT, Chpt 32 (the Arya cat chase chapter) and seeing if it maps out her whole journey. I'll keep my eyes peeled for any references to that. :-)

Thanks for the contribution.

Be sure to read Mladden's Harrenhall thread, which I'm pretty sure he linked to.

That would be Lannistark, not Lannstark.

Being that we are firmly in the realm of the hypothetical, it could hypothetically be either. Still, I prefer the latter. Lannistark sounds a little to close to Lannister.

[Northern_Star]

Shouldnt Tyriom be tried for kingslaying/ killing of Tywin if he ever comes back to westeros, same for Sansa.

I think this matter has to be resolved first before they can think of getting a house and children together :P

I kinda see them getting together since each of them don't want it.

[Petyr Patter]

Shouldnt Tyriom be tried for kingslaying/ killing of Tywin if he ever comes back to westeros, same for Sansa.

I think this matter has to be resolved first before they can think of getting a house and children together :P

I kinda see them getting together since each of them don't want it.

Tyrion was already found guilty for Kingslaying. Perhaps the Faith would be willing to retry him as a way to increase its prestige, but mostly it is considered a done cause. HOWEVER, we know of at least three other people strongly suspect for king slaying, Jaime Lannister, Brienne of Tarth, and Roose Bolton. In all cases the new regime just doesn't care to punish the enemies of the old regime. Oh, I suppose Loras had Brienne arrested before realizing she was innocent, but only because he was the old king's lover. Meaning the people who actually care to prosecute are a small number.

Obviously, if Cersei cements her control over the Iron Throne and Westeros, Tyrion would have no place in it. So, this theory assumes that doens't happen. Which isn't a stretch in the slightest, last we heard from Cersei she was under house arrest and carefully watched by a rotating guard of septas. I don't know who ends up in charge, or if the kingdoms breakdown into 7 sovereign states once more. Yet, I don't need to know the path to guess a the destination.

[LROSyke]

This will never happen.

[Queen of Thornes]

I think they would both want out of the marriage, first chance they get. I don't see Tyrion insisting on having Sansa as his wife. He wasn't keen on the marriage to start with.

The Lannister family is weakening and Sansa being married to Tyrion could actually be an opening for the real political sharps to gain Casterly Rock. I can see Bolton or LF conniving along these lines.

I am afraid I do not recognise the characters of Sansa and Tyrion in your post. Sansa is not a good reader of people, for example. Also Tyrion comes across as a victim, when if you read the books, Tyrion does not have a "Woe is me, I am a victim of so much cruelty." way of thinking. He is smart and uses his brain more often than a lot of others. He is politically savy. He know his limitations and the society he lives in and he has adapted. He is actually quite resilient.

Tyrion and Sansa did not connect for obviuos reasons. She is a teen aged girl, he is a much older man, neither loves each other. Sansa's head is in the clouds, she has wonderful romantic ideas of knights in shining armour- a repulsive little drawf is not a tall handsome knight with tales of daring-do. Tyrion frankly has bigger issues to deal with that Sansa's childishness.

I don't see Tyrion allowing Sansa to manipulate him. He isn't that desparate for love. And he wasn't interested in Sansa anyway. He felt sorry for her and the difficult time she had had at Joff's hands, and with the loss of her family. He also understands how vulnerable and in danger she is in the current political climate, better than Sansa understands it, certinly.

You are also assuming that Casterly Rock will be as powerful at the end of the series of books as it was at the beginning, for Sansa to become a powerful woman as mistress of Casterly Rock.

I suppose what you are propsing is possible but I would consider it unlikely at best. There is also the unknown of LF's plans to factor in. I would more readily put my money Sansa ending up as mistress of the Eyrie.

[jentario]

Am I the only one who thinks Bran will rebuild Winterfell? He knows it better than anyone, having climbed the walls and all. He even says so himself. Add to that "Bran the Builder" and you've got yourself more than enough foreshadowing. I mean, I guess Sansa has some too given the snow castle, but I don't know. I just don't feel that Bran will stay in the cave for the rest of the series. Imagine the story before the five year gap was cut- Bran has been in the cave for five years, Bran has become a great greenseer, Bran stays in the cave for three large books? No, no, no. I doubt it.

[Mithras]

Am I the only one who thinks Bran will rebuild Winterfell? He knows it better than anyone, having climbed the walls and all. He even says so himself. Add to that "Bran the Builder" and you've got yourself more than enough foreshadowing. I mean, I guess Sansa has some too given the snow castle, but I don't know. I just don't feel that Bran will stay in the cave for the rest of the series. Imagine the story before the five year gap was cut- Bran has been in the cave for five years, Bran has become a great greenseer, Bran stays in the cave for three large books? No, no, no. I doubt it.

You are not the only one