Will S+T=HLS?

[chrisdaw]

I don't see Tyrion allowing Sansa to manipulate him. He isn't that desparate for love. And he wasn't interested in Sansa anyway. He felt sorry for her and the difficult time she had had at Joff's hands, and with the loss of her family. He also understands how vulnerable and in danger she is in the current political climate, better than Sansa understands it, certinly.

A great chunk of his text is dedicated to him being manipulated by a young beautiful woman against his better judgement because she can make him feel loved.

[Newstar]

I've noticed that GRRM doesn't tend to go backwards in his major character arcs. It's always on to the next thing. No do-overs.

Sansa and Tyrion had their shot at marriage. Not surprisingly, it didn't work out. As far as they're both concerned, it's on to the next thing.

[KingOfTheRock]

A great chunk of his text is dedicated to him being manipulated by a young beautiful woman against his better judgement because she can make him feel loved.

But Tyrion already knows Sansa didn't love him. If she suddenly came up and said "I love you" to Tyrion there'd be some amount of suspicion.

[Woman of War]

I've noticed that GRRM doesn't tend to go backwards in his major character arcs. It's always on to the next thing. No do-overs.

Sansa and Tyrion had their shot at marriage. Not surprisingly, it didn't work out. As far as they're both concerned, it's on to the next thing.

Here I disagree.

Actually I think Martin has a tendency to recurring motives and topics: several trials by combat, several marriages, people making up for former mistakes by not repeating them.......

It is obviously pure speculation but Sansa and Tyrion might get a second shot under different auspices (though I am not so sure if I like it, there may be another woman out there for Tyrion, a girl can dream)

[the conquoring bastard25]

I've noticed that GRRM doesn't tend to go backwards in his major character arcs. It's always on to the next thing. No do-overs.

Sansa and Tyrion had their shot at marriage. Not surprisingly, it didn't work out. As far as they're both concerned, it's on to the next thing.

I agree and disagree I Think that GRRM wants likes his characters to learns their lessons or they are doomed to repeat them. Ex: Jon and Yrigette and Jon and Val. For all purposes he stole both of these women, but because he has these pesky vows he only allows himself to get with her because he had a role to play. Jon stole Val as well, yet once again he has the choice to claim her and those vows get in the way. Until Jon learns his lesson about love, women.... he's going to keep repeating them.

Tyrion was married before he couldn't protect his first wife and horrible things happened from that, then, he marries Sansa knowing this time that she doesn't love her, this time trying to learn his lesson tries to protect her from the worst that her family is trying to do to her and those that she loves. Yet once again he and his wife because of politics he's unable to protect his wife only this time he and her are both in trouble this time.

Not to mention that there are a lot of reasons to keep them together, there are so many different arch's that they can hit and cross. This marriage could affect some many different characters and their actions that it's only makes good plot wise for them to stay married. I mean how pissed would Tywin be if he were to learn that the meal he cooked up for the north is going to be served to his western men instead. I personally think that would be the last f you to Tywin and his precious legacy.

Keeping them married is the equivalent the Lyanna marring and staying with Robert. Lyanna didn't love or want to be with Robert yet because it made good political sense for them to marry they would have. Sansa didn't want to marry Tyrion but because of politics they did and should have to stay married.

[chrisdaw]

But Tyrion already knows Sansa didn't love him. If she suddenly came up and said "I love you" to Tyrion there'd be some amount of suspicion.

Like he knew Shae was a whore and didn't love him.

[AlliYoyo]

Rebuttal:

• There are over 200 "types" of dwarfism. It is not entirely clear which type Tyrion has. Meaning, it might not be genetic. My own crack pot theory is he caught a case of greyscale in the womb, which longterm stunted his growth and made his pregnancy problematic, but gave him immunity.

I tried to look up "dwarf pregnancy," but mostly found pregnant dwarfs. Regardless, I don't think a future little person turns pregnancy anymore problematic than it already is. Didn't Penny discuss memories of her mother?

Even if we assume Mendelian genetics, and that the gene for dwarfism is dominant, then any of Tyrion's children have only a 50% chance of inheriting the gene. If it is recessive, then 0% of the children will be little people, though they will all carry the recessive gene. This assumes Tyrion's partner is normal height.

Finally, there is no particular reason to believe Martin holds to Mendelian genetics. I suppose this could go either way, considering how the Baratheon black hair ALWAYS wins out.

No matter what, the author will tell the story he wants to tell regardless of what The Lancet thinks of it.

There are also instances where two dwarfs (for lack of a better term) have had children who do not have dwarfism. So, regardless of whom Tyrion ends up with (Tysha, Sansa, Penny...) there is a chance he would have normal children. The gene would be there, true, but it could also eventually be bred out (and I'm not talking eugenics)

[Petyr Patter]

I think they would both want out of the marriage, first chance they get. I don't see Tyrion insisting on having Sansa as his wife. He wasn't keen on the marriage to start with.

The Lannister family is weakening and Sansa being married to Tyrion could actually be an opening for the real political sharps to gain Casterly Rock. I can see Bolton or LF conniving along these lines.

I am afraid I do not recognise the characters of Sansa and Tyrion in your post. Sansa is not a good reader of people, for example. Also Tyrion comes across as a victim, when if you read the books, Tyrion does not have a "Woe is me, I am a victim of so much cruelty." way of thinking. He is smart and uses his brain more often than a lot of others. He is politically savy. He know his limitations and the society he lives in and he has adapted. He is actually quite resilient.

Tyrion and Sansa did not connect for obviuos reasons. She is a teen aged girl, he is a much older man, neither loves each other. Sansa's head is in the clouds, she has wonderful romantic ideas of knights in shining armour- a repulsive little drawf is not a tall handsome knight with tales of daring-do. Tyrion frankly has bigger issues to deal with that Sansa's childishness.

I don't see Tyrion allowing Sansa to manipulate him. He isn't that desparate for love. And he wasn't interested in Sansa anyway. He felt sorry for her and the difficult time she had had at Joff's hands, and with the loss of her family. He also understands how vulnerable and in danger she is in the current political climate, better than Sansa understands it, certinly.

You are also assuming that Casterly Rock will be as powerful at the end of the series of books as it was at the beginning, for Sansa to become a powerful woman as mistress of Casterly Rock.

I suppose what you are propsing is possible but I would consider it unlikely at best. There is also the unknown of LF's plans to factor in. I would more readily put my money Sansa ending up as mistress of the Eyrie.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying here, I just take those trends into a different direction. Obviously, House Lannister is on a decline, but much of that decline can be attributed to Cersei. However, on paper House Lannister is still decades ahead of House Stark. Yet, I being something of an optimist believe House Stark is going to make a big comeback. Likewise, while House Lannister is on a decline, it is a decline predicated by poor reputation and poorer leadership. Tyrion can reverse both trends. Especially if he finds himself with a stronger alliance to the series protagonists.

Am I the only one who thinks Bran will rebuild Winterfell? He knows it better than anyone, having climbed the walls and all. He even says so himself. Add to that "Bran the Builder" and you've got yourself more than enough foreshadowing. I mean, I guess Sansa has some too given the snow castle, but I don't know. I just don't feel that Bran will stay in the cave for the rest of the series. Imagine the story before the five year gap was cut- Bran has been in the cave for five years, Bran has become a great greenseer, Bran stays in the cave for three large books? No, no, no. I doubt it.

Check my signature for TWO Bran threads. One argues he will become Lord of Winterfell, the other suggests he is going to marry Danaerys. Admittedly, neither explicitly says who is going to "rebuild" Winterfell. In some ways, Roose Bolton has already started the process.

[juanml82]

While I think both Lannisters and Starks will need strong marriage alliances in the aftermath (assuming the White Walkers invasion doesn't tear apart the foundations of the Westerosi system, destroy Winterfell for good or something along those lines, of course), I don't think neither the Lannisters or the Starks benefit from a continued marriage between Sansa and Tyrion.

The Starks had their lands destroyed and their population killed, exiled or taken prisoner. Even if there were no WW and they were restored early in TWOW, they will have no household troops and hardly any smallfolk to produce wealth. They will be one of the weakest, if not The weakest House in the North. On top, they should rule all the more powerful Houses in the North. They will need marriage alliances to survive and raise in power again. Wylla Manderly and Rickon will do a lot to strengthen and cement them, but they will also need additional marriages and alliances so they don't become entirely dependent on the Manderlys. The thing is, the Lannisters are too far, with the Riverlands in between and no fleet (so far) to intervene in Northern affairs. So it should be in the best political interests of House Stark to annul Sansa's marriage and marry Sansa to someone else (assuming she doesn't rise to power on her own and that she doesn't need to marry to someone else before the end of the series to achieve or consolidate her power. And assuming, of course, that she survives to the end of the series). Probably, some River Lord or another Northern House. Whether Sansa wants this or not is another matter.

Regarding Tyrion, if he lives to become the Lord of Casterly Rock he'll be: a dwarf, a kingslayer and a kinslayer. He would likely have a good relationship with the ruler from the Iron Throne (otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to be the Lord of CR) if there is an Iron Throne by the end of the series. But he will need a good marriage to cement his rule - he has to fight all those three disadvantages and marriages can complement whatever version of the Rains of Castamere Tyrion can make for his own. But check the Stark situation by the end of the series. He too should be looking to annul his marriage(s) and marry some Westerlander girl or some woman from a powerful nearby House.

[Petyr Patter]

I've noticed that GRRM doesn't tend to go backwards in his major character arcs. It's always on to the next thing. No do-overs.

Sansa and Tyrion had their shot at marriage. Not surprisingly, it didn't work out. As far as they're both concerned, it's on to the next thing.

No do-overs is right on the money. Actually, this is why I think Tyrion and Sansa will STAY married. Martin doesn't just avoid giving his characters second chances, but he makes darn sure they never escape the consequences of their decisions. Theon was told by his sister to abandon Winterfell. He did not and has been suffering for it ever since. Robb broke his oath to marry a Frey, and no amount of promises would have brought them back into the alliance. Heck, even the Tyrell plan to seamlessly remove Joffrey and move on to Tommen set off a chain reaction that has Maragery facing treason charges, Loras dying on Dragonstone, the Iron Born raiding the Reach, and House Lannister leadership dead or jailed.

So, what to make of the marriage? If nothing more comes of it, it was simply an unpleasant time in both their lives that can be forgotten and buried. That isn't "suffering the consequences," except as an extension of Sansa's choice to tell Dontos the Tyrell plan to move her to Highgarden. Sansa is actually using the marriage right now as a shield against other unwanted marriages.

What it means, only Martin knows. Yet, I think Martin intends for them to find a way to make the marriage work, and I am proposing a new dynamic in which it actually could work.

[newbieone]

If Tysha's alive, Sansa and Tyrion aren't married.

If Tyrion goes to the Wall (e.g. after just simply asserting his right to CR and scoring the goal), it wouldn't make much sense to keep Sansa bound by the marriage.

If the Others become the talk of all Westeros, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion felt motivated to help his friend Jon Snow.

[Petyr Patter]

If Tysha's alive, Sansa and Tyrion aren't married.

If Tyrion goes to the Wall (e.g. after just simply asserting his right to CR and scoring the goal), it wouldn't make much sense to keep Sansa bound by the marriage.

If the Others become the talk of all Westeros, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion felt motivated to help his friend Jon Snow.

Tysha and Tyrion's wedding was made on very shaky grounds. Both individuals were minors without their parent's consent. The septem who performed the ceremony was intoxicated. Tyrion bribed him and undoubtedly told some lies that the Septem figured out later. Hence, his later confession to Tywin. There were not witnesses besides the septem.

If there was any chance that Tyrion could still be legally married to Tysha, Tywin would have just killed her.

[Fox fur cloak]

I would be perfectly happy with Lannistark, since Tyrion and Sansa are two of my favorite characters and their personalities complement each other nicely. Both have pretty good morals, and aren't as respected as they deserve to be. I think they'd be happy together if they're both in control of the situation (the main reason for their tense marriage was the very forced nature of it, particularly overshadowed by the Red Wedding), and if Sansa can get over the whole ugly-dwarf prejudice she has. (But she's already seemed to get over her fear of the Hound, so why not Tyrion?) If their marriage doesn't work out, these two would make good allies at least.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I would be perfectly happy with Lannistark, since Tyrion and Sansa are two of my favorite characters and their personalities complement each other nicely. Both have pretty good morals, and aren't as respected as they deserve to be. I think they'd be happy together if they're both in control of the situation (the main reason for their tense marriage was the very forced nature of it, particularly overshadowed by the Red Wedding), and if Sansa can get over the whole ugly-dwarf prejudice she has. (But she's already seemed to get over her fear of the Hound, so why not Tyrion?) If their marriage doesn't work out, these two would make good allies at least.

I think a little too much poisoned water has flowed under the broken bridge for there to be a chance that they will stay married or be allies or even want to associate with each other in any capacity. Sansa is relieved that her "mockery of a marriage" is seemingly behind her and has vowed to herself never to trust a Lannister again. Tyrion has almost completely convinced himself that Sansa actually murdered Joffrey and left him in Kings Landing to take the rap for it.

It's true that politics makes strange bedfellows and the situation in Westeros could well become dire enough that some kind of alliance or working friendship between the two could of necessity develop, but it does seem unlikely at this point since their stories have greatly diverged in the interim.

[Petyr Patter]

I think a little too much poisoned water has flowed under the broken bridge for there to be a chance that they will stay married or be allies or even want to associate with each other in any capacity. Sansa is relieved that her "mockery of a marriage" is seemingly behind her and has vowed to herself never to trust a Lannister again. Tyrion has almost completely convinced himself that Sansa actually murdered Joffrey and left him in Kings Landing to take the rap for it.

It's true that politics makes strange bedfellows and the situation in Westeros could well become dire enough that some kind of alliance or working friendship between the two could of necessity develop, but it does seem unlikely at this point since their stories have greatly diverged in the interim.

• I think you just double stacked your metaphor there. It is water under the bridge, meaning its long gone and you can't get it back, while a broken bridge means progress can't be made... until bridge is fixed. Anyways, I'll avoid being pedantic from here out. I actually disagree with you here. Sansa and Tyrion have very little bad blood between them. Sansa almost describes Tyrion as kind to Lysa, but stops when she realizes Lysa doesn't want to hear it. Tyrion is harsher on Sansa during his recollections, but really he doesn't blame her compared to his father and his sister.

Ah, but the beauty of my theory is Sansa doesn't have to trust a "Lannister," because once the name change happens Tyrion won't be a Lannister anymore, he'd be a Lannstark.

Now here you are onto something. Martin keep pushing his characters further and further apart, but I don't think this will continue. Eventually, he has to start bringing them back together, and unless Tyrion dies (which he totally just might), then Sansa and Tyrion are eventually going to have to decide what to do with their wedding vows. I suggest they will stay married.

[Fox fur cloak]

<p>

Now here you are onto something. Martin keep pushing his characters further and further apart, but I don't think this will continue. Eventually, he has to start bringing them back together, and unless Tyrion dies (which he totally just might), then Sansa and Tyrion are eventually going to have to decide what to do with their wedding vows. I suggest they will stay married.

Didn't GRRM say something about ending the story with all the characters grouped together at Winterfell, just as they started?

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

I pray to all the gods that they do.

[Avlonnic]

Or, will Sansa and Tyrion found House LannStark?

Did anyone else think "Land Shark" instead of LannStark? Must be Sunday...

[Annara Snow]

Did anyone else think "Land Shark" instead of LannStark? Must be Sunday...

Well, the odds of the LandShark house being founded in Westeros is infinitely greater than the odds of a LannStark house being founded by anyone within the next century or two, least of all by Sansa and Tyrion.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

• I think you just double stacked your metaphor there. It is water under the bridge, meaning its long gone and you can't get it back, while a broken bridge means progress can't be made... until bridge is fixed. Anyways, I'll avoid being pedantic from here out. I actually disagree with you here. Sansa and Tyrion have very little bad blood between them. Sansa almost describes Tyrion as kind to Lysa, but stops when she realizes Lysa doesn't want to hear it. Tyrion is harsher on Sansa during his recollections, but really he doesn't blame her compared to his father and his sister.

Ah, but the beauty of my theory is Sansa doesn't have to trust a "Lannister," because once the name change happens Tyrion won't be a Lannister anymore, he'd be a Lannstark.

Now here you are onto something. Martin keep pushing his characters further and further apart, but I don't think this will continue. Eventually, he has to start bringing them back together, and unless Tyrion dies (which he totally just might), then Sansa and Tyrion are eventually going to have to decide what to do with their wedding vows. I suggest they will stay married.

1. Yeah, lol. I was trying to give the metaphor more "punch" to show how much I disagree with the idea that those two crazy kids will decide to stay together. Both of them were miserable: Sansa a prisoner and Tyrion quickly realizing that he would likely never get anything he wanted out of the marriage (love, kids, Winterfell) as well as being a laughingstock at the court for not consummating. There is no there there for Tyrion and Sansa IMO.

Her almost describing him as "kind" sounds to me like damning with faint praise. Anyway, almost calling someone "kind" hardly constitutes a desire to rush back into marriage with them.

2. Frankly, that's kind of a ridiculous point. Tyrion changing his name to Lannstark doesn't change who he is as a person or the nature of his family and his upbringing. He's still Tyrion, someone born and raised as a Lannister, a member of the family which destroyed hers. Even if he is at odds with his family, he's still a product of it. He is still someone Sansa finds incompatible and repulsive.

3. I really disagree with you on your third point. I don't see any indication in the text that they have any incentive to stay together.