Will S+T=HLS?

[Hand to King Davos]

• My brother in law served in Afghanistan, and married my sister. That is brave. Me, I'm just passing time on a Sunday in between baseball innings (go tribe!).

Haha absolutely. Though they are terrible this year. (Sorry for going way off topic, but nice to see a fellow tribe fan here.)

[chrisdaw]

They won't found a new house, they'll be Lannister or Targaryen.

[Petyr Patter]

Haha absolutely. Though they are terrible this year. (Sorry for going way off topic, but nice to see a fellow tribe fan here.)

2 wins in a row! Just need 4 more to erase that disastrous west coast trip. Also, if Detroit could start losing, that would be great.

They won't found a new house, they'll be Lannister or Targaryen.

If Tyrion really is a Targaryen bastard, then he's a bastard. Meaning he has no right to the name Targaryen. There is no king that would legitimize him into the House. Also, there is a complete lack of evidence. It is also a theory I oppose for literary and theme reasons:

• Tyrion is off the hook for kinslaying. Martin does not let his characters off the hook for their actions.

It justifies Tywin's treatment of Tyrion, as a an embarrassment and unworthy heir.

It further elevates the Targaryen House as the "special club" for people with great destinies. Which is the sort of false hype the Targaryens created for themselves and actually started believing.

Half the point of Tyrion as a character is an exploration of greatness in the face of a handicap. If he is a Targaryen, then his greatness is assumed by the point above. If he rides a dragon, then he almost loses his defining handicap. I don't think Martin is going to let that happen.

[juanml82]

I don't see this happening. Both Sansa and Tyrion went down a path that is incredibly different. Sansa desires more than anything to go back home while Tyrion wants to be Lord of Casterly Rock.

Why do we have to start with this?

IF we speak about cadet branches of House Stark, I think we will see House Stark of Harrenhal. Honestly, I don't see this marriage lasting due to onw simple fact: both want out of it. Both Tyrion and Sansa want to end this marriage, Martin leaved like a dozens options under which this marriage could be annulled. This marriage is not something either of them want, and politically even isn't something either one of them would achieve to. All and all, a big fat no. After all, we have seen such separation post-PW that when and if they reunite, it certainly won't be to rekindle something never existed.

Because characters in Westeros end up getting what they want...

While I don't think a continued marriage between Sansa and Tyrion can (nor should) be discarded, they wouldn't found a new House. Sansa would just turn continue to be a Lannister, and Lady of Casterly Rock since Tyrion would need to be legally rehabilitated/pardoned and their sons would continue the Lannister line.

What I don't think is that Sansa would be able to manipulate him through Tyrion's desire to feel loved and desired, because Sansa doesn't strike me as someone able to feign desire or romantic love. She can be courteous, but that leads to an amicable relationship, not a relationship where Tywin Tyrion rules Casterly Rock and Joanna Sansa rules Tyrion.

[Lady Woodland]

Their marriage was arranged by Tywin for it's political advantages (he thinks all the other Stark heirs are dead) so he's hoping for the North to come to heel because of the match. Sadly for Sansa, she's not given a choice because she's a political hostage & pawn, Sansa doesn't even kneel for Tyrion to give her his cloak during the Wedding Ceremony, she finds him physically repulsive.

I think Tyrion agrees to it to bring her under his protection as best he can, I also believe he does find Sansa attractive & he wouldn't be opposed to a love match but he's not getting the love back, & he's a decent guy, he's not going to rape & abuse her & she's grateful for that.

During their brief time together, they form a bond of uneasy truce & trust & the beginnings of a friendship that will probably become very important in the future, imho I think this is why GRRM married them to each other, to forge a future alliance, they will put aside their family history & heal the strife & support the best man standing at the end but not as a couple.

I believe each of their Arc's will come into great power & you know what they say - "With great power comes great responsibility" so GRRM is setting up their back stories with love, loss, betrayal & consequences to make them better characters. Corny but I hope they both find love too, but I don't think it's destined to be with each other.

[James Arryn]

I don't see this happening. Both Sansa and Tyrion went down a path that is incredibly different. Sansa desires more than anything to go back home while Tyrion wants to be Lord of Casterly Rock.

Not many high-born marriages seem to revolve around each partner getting what they want, though. Few manage to get so high as one partner getting what they want.

[LordStoneheart]

I'm just stopping by to poke a little fun at "it lets Tyrion off the hook for kinslaying." :lmao:It's not like it will un-murder Tywin, and Tyrion would never stop thinking of him as his lord father, the one who raised him. I think literary/narrative sense Tyrion as a Targ bastard could definitely work without changing huge dynamics. I don't believe it but it wouldn't be bad for me.

[chrisdaw]

If Tyrion really is a Targaryen bastard, then he's a bastard.

If Tyrion rides a dragon the perception will be that he has Targaryen blood. Neither Dany or Aegon have heirs. We already have an example of a character being legitimised due to having been able to ride a dragon. In Tyrion's dream he has two heads, as he brings fire and blood down upon his Lannister family beside a Targ bastard one head weeps and the other revels, two heads of Tyrion at loggerheads with each other over his Lannister loyalty.

[Shebara]

Why not those 2 together?

G RR M already paired a beautiful powerful young woman with an hopeless old loser in his "Hedge Knight" stories ...just for peace and practical reasons - love had nothing to do with it! - so why not LanniStark?

Already TV Sansa is very much kinder to Tyrion (how she was concerned and worried for him while Joffrey humiliated him during the Purple wedding)!

And it would be a great plot if Sansa would fail in her stupid maiden dream about a big knight in shining armour ...to find some happiness and safety at the side of someone like Tyrion.

[James Arryn]

Additionally, one of GRRM's greatest inspirations, Cornwell, loves to have comically mis-matched romances that become more meaningful than most.

[chrisdaw]

I don't expect much romance although Sansa may come to like him enough that she won't forsake him in the end, or will do so with a heavy heart.

At some point Sansa will have to choose her new family and all she's accumulated or her old real family.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Sir Petyr, I like it.

Ties up several plot points in my head and moves the pieces right were I need them to be to make my theories on several fronts possible. So I will say bravo and well done.

As to the whole Sansa in Harrenhal, not going to happen. If any Stark female claims Harrenhal it's going to be Ayra.

The Ghost of Harrenhal, The mouse of Harrenhal.

Petyr may be the lord paramount and it maybe his seat but he's never going to step foot inside of Harrenhal.

[north of the wall]

While this is not an ending I'd like for either of them I could see it happening. (Maybe) There are many bitter sweet endings I could possibly see for them and this is well thought out enough to be just one more theory I will be ok with if it does happen. However I think Sansa may not be married to anyone by the end of the series. We shall see.

[Mithras]

Tyrion is in borrowed times. He is infected with greyscale. I think by the time they land on Vale, Sansa will be in KL, a prisoner of Cersei. She will be judged of Joffrey's murder but she will be found innocent (which she is). I think Cersei will keep her as a hostage. Fire Eater has a theory that Olenna will confess her part in Joffrey's murder. I think the Highgarden will be sacked by the ironborn and they will flee to KL.

[Petyr Patter]

Because characters in Westeros end up getting what they want...

While I don't think a continued marriage between Sansa and Tyrion can (nor should) be discarded, they wouldn't found a new House. Sansa would just turn continue to be a Lannister, and Lady of Casterly Rock since Tyrion would need to be legally rehabilitated/pardoned and their sons would continue the Lannister line.

What I don't think is that Sansa would be able to manipulate him through Tyrion's desire to feel loved and desired, because Sansa doesn't strike me as someone able to feign desire or romantic love. She can be courteous, but that leads to an amicable relationship, not a relationship where Tywin Tyrion rules Casterly Rock and Joanna Sansa rules Tyrion.

It is certainly a possibility that Tyrion continues House Lannister, or that he dies. However, I feel that Tywin Lannister was one of the most evil villains in the show. He justifies his actions as either pragmatisim or as necessary to protect the prestiege of House Lannister. The TV show makes it even more explicit, he is fighting for his "legacy" and his family name.

Death was a good start. Removing House Lannister from Casterly Rock is an appropriate finish. The idea behind Tyrion founding a new House is a way for us to get an appropriate ending for Tyrion and for House Lannister.

I'm just stopping by to poke a little fun at "it lets Tyrion off the hook for kinslaying." :lmao:It's not like it will un-murder Tywin, and Tyrion would never stop thinking of him as his lord father, the one who raised him. I think literary/narrative sense Tyrion as a Targ bastard could definitely work without changing huge dynamics. I don't believe it but it wouldn't be bad for me.

Yeah it would. Killing Tywin Lannister isn't murder, it is merely a good start. However, patricide is notorious crime throughout much of history. Westeros has a very big taboo on kinslaying, defined mostly by blood. In legends, the son of Bael the Bard was cursed for killing his father even though he never knew the man.

If Tyrion rides a dragon the perception will be that he has Targaryen blood. Neither Dany or Aegon have heirs. We already have an example of a character being legitimised due to having been able to ride a dragon. In Tyrion's dream he has two heads, as he brings fire and blood down upon his Lannister family beside a Targ bastard one head weeps and the other revels, two heads of Tyrion at loggerheads with each other over his Lannister loyalty.

I don't think Tyrion will ever ride a dragon. More likely, he kills the last dragon, or orders its death. This would fit Martin's "bittersweet" ending.

Tyrion is in borrowed times. He is infected with greyscale. I think by the time they land on Vale, Sansa will be in KL, a prisoner of Cersei. She will be judged of Joffrey's murder but she will be found innocent (which she is). I think Cersei will keep her as a hostage. Fire Eater has a theory that Olenna will confess her part in Joffrey's murder. I think the Highgarden will be sacked by the ironborn and they will flee to KL.

We haven't seen any evidence that Tyrion is infected, just that he is at risk of infection. In contrast, we already see the disease emerge in Jon Connington. I think Tyrion just got lucky and missed the disease, or he had the disease while still in the womb, hence his deformity and current immunity. Regardless, I don't think Martin is going to have his favorite character die slowly of a disease 5 years after the events of the novels.

Sir Petyr, I like it.

Ties up several plot points in my head and moves the pieces right were I need them to be to make my theories on several fronts possible. So I will say bravo and well done.

As to the whole Sansa in Harrenhal, not going to happen. If any Stark female claims Harrenhal it's going to be Ayra.

The Ghost of Harrenhal, The mouse of Harrenhal.

Petyr may be the lord paramount and it maybe his seat but he's never going to step foot inside of Harrenhal.

Thank you. Be sure to check out the links in my signature for more of my theories which may or may not be leading towards one end.

[juanml82]

It is certainly a possibility that Tyrion continues House Lannister, or that he dies. However, I feel that Tywin Lannister was one of the most evil villains in the show. He justifies his actions as either pragmatisim or as necessary to protect the prestiege of House Lannister. The TV show makes it even more explicit, he is fighting for his "legacy" and his family name.

Death was a good start. Removing House Lannister from Casterly Rock is an appropriate finish. The idea behind Tyrion founding a new House is a way for us to get an appropriate ending for Tyrion and for House Lannister.

House Lannister ruled Casterly Rock since the Age of Heroes. They are as ancient as House Stark. So, while I agree that the only good Tywin is the dead Tywin, given the value Westeros puts in old lineage, I don't think House Lannister would die, in name, because they have one cruel Lord. House Stark is known for its fair share of ancient and cruel kings, yet it remains.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Petyr Patter you are a brilliant human being.

It's been bugging me about some hanging plot points or possible plots that I think have to move the plot forward.

This marriage and its future ramifications are far reaching indeed.

For Starters many have been wondering why would the Vale lords ever become apart of a Northern alliance, why would they submit to such? It makes no sense on the surface right?

But what if this was to play out:

Tyrion in his mind way back in the first book promises to turn to Vale of Arryn into a smoking ruin. Not a ruin but a smoking ruin. Tyrion's own aunt told Jamie and Tywin both that he's Tywin's heir not Jamie. Tyrion is always mirthful in his head see father I learn my lessons.

What if under some certain circumstance's Tyrion figures out how to blow Dragonbinder without killing himself. I have a certain blood of the dragon sellsword as a sacrifice in mind for the job. If Tyrion can bind Viserion to his will, that will make Tyrion a very formatible player indeed. I've also thought that Astopor was just foreshadowing for the future of all the Slaver cities. That during this battle for Meereen is going to end with the dragon's burning the city down. Yunkai will be next. Plunder the wealth of the Slaver cities and move on to Volantis, working on the assumption that if Dany is still alive she would make for Volantis once she learns of the Slave cities are burned.

I think that a more interesting read would be for Dany to think that someone sacked and stole her dragons. Verse she forgive Tyrion for her father's and brother's pasted deeds. It would further feed into her thoughts that the Lanisters and co are just stolen for the dragon. There is foreshadowing about someone stealing from the Dragon. Way back in book one where Viserys tells Dany that you don't steal from the dragon for the dragon remembers.

Anyway From Volantis, Tyrion makes his way with the Second Sons maybe even Vic in tow. Yet he may also, have to the help of slaves/Volantis Ships that are close behind Vic and the iron fleet. They make for Westeros. I think that their invasion point will be the Finger's. It's perfect it parallels the Andals invasion whom when they invaded it also started in the fingers, while the conquest it was Viseryas that went to the Vale and subdue it's queen and young king.

This time however, instead of pardoning the Vale, Tyrion takes a play from his father's playbook and exterminates all of house Arryn, even the uncouth cousins in Gullstown.

Half of the lords declarant are related to the Starks by blood. It maybe a matter instead of tearing the Vale apart they align themselves with the Starks.

Now shift gears for a sec while I bring your attention to the Riverlands and it's plight or ambush....

Edmure Tully was way to pleased with himself when last we saw him. It's my opinion that was in part due to the blackfish's escape yes, but wait a minute he's a captive, headed far from home, just been stripped of his beloved Riverrun, his child more than likely is going to be his death and his wife is a well, I'm too much of a lady to say what his wife is. So why would Edmure be please with himself? What could possibly be making this man have a smile on his face at sure a time as this?

Well, there are those that think that the Blackfish is going to rescue his nephew and they link up with the brotherhood. I say no, the brotherhood is already inside of Riverrun with maybe about 20 men. There's a garrison of 200 inside of Riverrun, I think about 10% is made up of Brotherhood men. The same way that the Blackfish slipped out is the way they are going to slip some Trident men back inside. PinkMaiden is about a 3 days walk from Riverrun. That's were the garrison that Jamie dismissed is headed.

When the lannisters disembark from Riverrun, they break up in 3 groups, Trident Lords, Freys and Western men. Edmure is a trap! He's the lure to make the West comfortable, while most of the lannister men are busy keeping their eye on their prized Trident hostages. Men are being dispatched and slipping in the West Trojan horse style. Edmure and the Trident lords want Edmure to reach Casterly Rock. The brotherhood and some of the men that are still disposed to the Trident are taking Western/Frey regiment and playing the part of men at arms in their service.

The western men are more then likely going to take the Gold road into the West. All they have to do is leave some of their men at the Golden Tooth. While those trident lords that were leaving Riverrun over take those that are headed to Deep Den and Haveford.

I've theorized that the way to take to West is to do a simatanious hit on Casterly Rock and the Golden Tooth.

The Castelleian in charge of the western forces and house Lannister is with Edmure right now. The rock has never fallen, but it could be taken from the inside.

Lannisport finds out that Edmure was a trick and that he's sacked the castle. They would have to mobilize to take the castle back, then they receive word that the Golden Tooth is under siege. The Lannisport not realizing of course that there are already men inside of the Golden Tooth just waiting to turn their cloaks to open the gates.

This would take some planning and coordinating with the Brotherhood, displaced northern foot, Trident lords, whores and small folk, but it could be done I think if the blackfish is planning it, as I think he would head west not north or to the vale.

Put a pin in that for a second. Turn our attention to Kings landing.

Tommen is dead and Cersi in fear for her life burns the city or just flees. Like Rheayns Targ after her failure at holding the IT, she goes to the one place that she thinks is safe for her Casterly Rock. Only she doesn't know that Casterly Rock is now held by the Trident. Now she is trapped at the Rock far from KL, where she may be able to help her last living child Marcella, and she like Aemon before her each raven that comes to Castely Rock will be dark and dreary. The prophecy will bloom and take hold she will see the destruction of her house all because she married the King and not the Prince.

Now how do all of these plots come together?

Cersi is a hostage of the North and the Rock/West is in Northern hands as well

Tyrion/Jon Snow are friends and Jon may or may not be the leading force of the North.

Tyrion holds Sansa and his she's his wife.

Jon like one of his forefather's could see the good sense of having the rightful lord of Casterly Rock as a friend. But like the same king Tyrion can play the part of Bloodraven this time around. Tyrion is a kinslayer and kingslayer. The same can be said of Bloodraven.

So a deal is struck for Casterly Rock, the continued marriage of Sansa and the plum in the pudding the cherry that graces this lovely ice cream sundae Cersi in golden chains.

In exchange Sansa/Imp renounce their claim to Winterfell, place their gold mines in the hands of Jon and the North along with their swords.

The west becomes Jon's Dorne in a sense and his bannerman conquered the lands and then he uses marriage to cement the lasting peace. While also removing another claimant to the throne of Winterfell.

What do you think?

[Petyr Patter]

House Lannister ruled Casterly Rock since the Age of Heroes. They are as ancient as House Stark. So, while I agree that the only good Tywin is the dead Tywin, given the value Westeros puts in old lineage, I don't think House Lannister would die, in name, because they have one cruel Lord. House Stark is known for its fair share of ancient and cruel kings, yet it remains.

Actually, House Lannister is supposedly only related to Lann the Clever (Age of Heroes) through the female line. I think we are dealing with legends, but Lann was "blood of the First Men" while House Lannister are Andals. Supposedly, a female descendent of Lann married an Andal and created House Lannister. So, House Lannstark might be history repeating itself.

The last time we saw great Houses replaced was merely 300 hundred years ago when Houses Tyrell and Baratheon came to replace houses Gardener and Durrandon. Or, perhaps only 14 years ago when Baratheon replaced Targaryen in King's Landing. Martin means for the events of A Song of Ice and Fire to be borderlin apocalyptic, and I imagine more than one great house is going to be displaced by story's end.

And why I like forming a new House, it could be Lannhalfman, is it lets there be continuation from the the legendary founder, Lann, while specifically refuting the more recent Tywin figure and his legacy. Because even when the great houses were replaced last time, there was still some continuation of the line. House Tyrell is descendent from Garth Greenhands, while House Baratheon was founded when Orys married the last Storm King's daughter.

[the conquoring bastard25]

yeah but Peytr I wrote this whole theory based on your marriage and you didn't say anything about it. GOod bad or other. I wanted your thoughts.

[Petyr Patter]

yeah but Peytr I wrote this whole theory based on your marriage and you didn't say anything about it. GOod bad or other. I wanted your thoughts.

I am working on it. Like you said, you wrote a lot.

Thank you for the compliment and interest, though.