[Book Spoilers] EP404 Discussion

[ultimo12]

The complete absence of consent. The complaints have been documented quite exhaustively on these boards, and in many other publications.

Ok, first i don't think consent is completely absent, i think it looked about a quarter-consentuai and even if it wasn't , what's the matter?

[raj34]

I'm really annoyed with this constant response to the valid criticism that the show seems to use rape scenes for sensation. No one here has said " those NW men woldn't rape" They just are annoyed with having to see it on the screen. We saw a guy drinking from Mormont's school while a bruised and battered woman sat next to him. Was anyone at all confused by what these guys were doing? What that ten seconds of "rape them til they're dead" and boobs flapping necessary to the plot? Also, apparently men being raped is something that occurs in this world but for some reason we only see it threatened...wonder why?

People can legitimately be annoyed by the fact that with other things that are cut there always seems to be enough time for the rape scenes so maybe for once one of you guys can stop acting like these people are too stupid to understand the world and give a cognizant argument why that scene added something we didn't already know and understand about the show for once?

Nobody is trying to stop you from being annoyed. Knock yourself out.

That said, the showrunners aren't going to invoke the doctrine of implied rape, or implied (fill in the blank) to whatever offends your tender sensibilities. Shows show stuff.

[briantw]

Would be cool, but what bothers me is that Thorne gave his nod of approval to Jon when he asked if he could take Locke with him. don' tthink he would've done that if he was not somehow in league with Locke

I saw it as more of Thorne not even remotely caring about the fate of some random recruit who has only been on the Wall for a day or two. Thorne isn't training the men any more, so he probably didn't see that Locke was a skilled swordsman who would be valuable on the mission to avenge Mormont.

[gulogirl]

Not sure if anyone's brought this up yet - I found the appearance of the Other sort of laughable, but maybe the spikey head is meant to reference the dragons, since they are the opposing and counterbalancing forces in this series? That's a possible explanation for an otherwise poorly-chosen physiognymy.

Re: deviations between the books and the show, and the show spoiling the books, I enjoy the books and I think GRRM has created an amazing world, but I also think he's much less in control of the nuances of the story than his fans suppose. There's a lot of stuff in the books that meanders pointlessly for ages, and he's said that he has a tough time keeping track of the timelines and the details. In short, the books, especially 4 and 5, could have benefited from a strict editor to keep him focused on a tighter storyline. I feel like the show is serving that purpose, shaking out the chaff and getting to the major points that a lot of us have known are coming and have been waiting for. I don't mind that the show is doing this. It's interesting to watch how the narrative is reconstructed. And since GRRM is involved in that process, I don't feel betrayed or spoiled. But I was definitely, for the first time as a watcher of the show, sitting up and thinking, "What the heck is this?!" during the last 15 minutes. I found it an enjoyable experience to be surprised for a change.

Anyway, relatively new here, I've been reading for a while but haven't really posted anything yet. Thanks for the interesting discussions.

[ultimo12]

I saw it as more of Thorne not even remotely caring about the fate of some random recruit who has only been on the Wall for a day or two. Thorne isn't training the men any more, so he probably didn't see that Locke was a skilled swordsman who would be valuable on the mission to avenge Mormont.

I see your point, but I think Thorne cares about Jon not getting what he wants. Unless he has a reason.

[ViennaGirl]

whatever offends your tender sensibilities.

no one who watches or reads this has tender sensibilities.

[Natalie Underfoot]

Nobody is trying to stop you from being annoyed. Knock yourself out.

That said, the showrunners aren't going to invoke the doctrine of implied rape, or implied (fill in the blank) to whatever offends your tender sensibilities. Shows show stuff.

That's fine, show stuff that has purpose, show something that tells us something new. I'm sorry but there are entire threads on this board complaining about characters being cut or characters aged up and at least those meet narrative purposes yet for some reason the vitrol aimed at the people who would prefer we not waste precious screen time on something that people already know happens pretty consistently in this world is pretty weird.

No time for coldhands, plenty of time for boobs

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Not sure if anyone's brought this up yet - I found the appearance of the Other sort of laughable, but maybe the spikey head is meant to reference the dragons, since they are the opposing and counterbalancing forces in this series? That's a possible explanation for an otherwise poorly-chosen physiognymy.

Re: deviations between the books and the show, and the show spoiling the books, I enjoy the books and I think GRRM has created an amazing world, but I also think he's much less in control of the nuances of the story than his fans suppose. There's a lot of stuff in the books that meanders pointlessly for ages, and he's said that he has a tough time keeping track of the timelines and the details. In short, the books, especially 4 and 5, could have benefited from a strict editor to keep him focused on a tighter storyline. I feel like the show is serving that purpose, shaking out the chaff and getting to the major points that a lot of us have known are coming and have been waiting for. I don't mind that the show is doing this. It's interesting to watch how the narrative is reconstructed. And since GRRM is involved in that process, I don't feel betrayed or spoiled. But I was definitely, for the first time as a watcher of the show, sitting up and thinking, "What the heck is this?!" during the last 15 minutes. I found it an enjoyable experience to be surprised for a change.

Anyway, relatively new here, I've been reading for a while but haven't really posted anything yet. Thanks for the interesting discussions.

I think they might be some sort of "Crown" if the Night's King thing is to be believed.

[briantw]

I see your point, but I think Thorne cares about Jon not getting what he wants. Unless he has a reason.

Or perhaps he saw Locke buddying up with Jon and decided to take care of two birds.

I still think the most likely reason Thorne was fine with it was because he just didn't care. As far as he was concerned, all these guys volunteering were people who would vote against him in a choosing anyway. Might as well let them all run off to die.

[Alia Atreides]

I'm really annoyed with this constant response to the valid criticism that the show seems to use rape scenes for sensation. No one here has said " those NW men woldn't rape" They just are annoyed with having to see it on the screen. We saw a guy drinking from Mormont's school while a bruised and battered woman sat next to him. Was anyone at all confused by what these guys were doing? What that ten seconds of "rape them til they're dead" and boobs flapping necessary to the plot? Also, apparently men being raped is something that occurs in this world but for some reason we only see it threatened...wonder why?

People can legitimately be annoyed by the fact that with other things that are cut there always seems to be enough time for the rape scenes so maybe for once one of you guys can stop acting like these people are too stupid to understand the world and give a cognizant argument why that scene added something we didn't already know and understand about the show for once?

Are we forgetting in "Dragons" we have scenes in the books very similar with the Iron Men? its quite similar to what just happened last night., I honestly do not get the criticism of the topic of rape and it being shown on screen its war and its savage and it happens in the books. I'm a woman and I'm not getting any sort of sensitivity etc towards it in the slightest. It is in essence real life during times of war, it happened during WW I and WWII by the conquers and it happened like slavery through out history. I enjoy the realism of it to be honest and not some white wash to coddle people who can't take it.

but yes people can be annoyed with it still does not change the facts of what happens in times of war.

[ultimo12]

Or perhaps he saw Locke buddying up with Jon and decided to take care of two birds.

I still think the most likely reason Thorne was fine with it was because he just didn't care. As far as he was concerned, all these guys volunteering were people who would vote against him in a choosing anyway. Might as well let them all run off to die.

Could be. We'll see :)

[The Crannogman]

No time for coldhands, plenty of time for boobs

This. Time one-thousand.

Storm is one of the best books of the series, with nary a dull spot post red wedding. If anywhere the show doesn't need to add any fabricated story lines, its here. Cold hands would have made bran a million times more interesting. IMHO

[Mark Antony]

Storm is one of the best books of the series, with nary a dull spot post red wedding. If anywhere the show doesn't need to add any fabricated story lines, its here. Cold hands would have made bran a million times more interesting. IMHO

I tend to agree

[Greg B]

Actually, there are references about Craster, and how he brings "cold" with him wherever he goes. I'll have to wait until I get home from work to look up the exact quotes.

EDIT: I found one of the quotes in another thread on this board, from A Clash of Kings

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

And you interpreted this passage as, "Craster has Other blood"? Really?

[David Selig]

This. Time one-thousand.

Storm is one of the best books of the series, with nary a dull spot post red wedding. If anywhere the show doesn't need to add any fabricated story lines, its here. Cold hands would have made bran a million times more interesting. IMHO

What is so interesting about Cold Hands?

[Elundin]

Okey quick question. Is Bran's storyline going a tad faster than in the books? I can't really remember where he should be right now, but I get the feeling, it's not beyond the wall, and definitely not in Craster's keep?

[ultimo12]

What is so interesting about Cold Hands?

I think people just wanted to see whether he'd look like Ben Stark or not.

[The Crannogman]

What is so interesting about Cold Hands?

The fact that he's a white walker-type humanoid who used to be a member of the night's watch who has some sort of control over ravens and is in contact with the 3-eyed crow (who the TV viewers have already been introduced to)...

Edited April 28, 2014 by The Crannogman

[Dany's Silver]

I wholeheartedly agree with you that the idea of Tommen and Marg actually being sexual is gross, but keep in mind that his parents were fooling around at that age (when their mother's maid caught them, but it's not clear what exactly they were doing) so it's not impossible.

Ick. I'd forgotten how early Cersei and Jaime started things. Of course, they're also much closer in age than Margaery and Tommen. I just want that poor kid to somehow manage to not be completely screwed up by everything around (surely someone can maintain some innocence in ASoIaF!) :)

Ideally, Bran will warg Summer and CH will show up, something like that. Then the mutineers can say Bran and Company were dragged off by a White Walker, with the presumption being they're dead. Yeah, I think Jon needs to think Bran is dead for the future of the plot. Why has tv Jon not asked/wondered about Rickon? Leads to so many issues.

Kind of puts a kink in Sam's character. It must have been so hard not to tell Jon in the books, but it showed how well he could keep a secret. Now, it just looked like he gave in and said, screw it, Imma tell.

Well, in the show, we don't see Bran make Sam promise to not tell Jon. I would have preferred that promise had been left in their arc, but we'll see where this goes. Someone else mentioned that perhaps Jojen will key into Jon's warging abilities, and that sort of makes sense, since the first time Jojen was near Jon, Ghost was on the other side of the Wall. Perhaps Jojen's green dreams intensify nearer to the Wall (the way Mel's powers do in ADWD)?

Ser Pounce. The pussy that was promised.

:bowdown:

Tommen surely had an urgent meeting with the Hand of The King after Margery left his bedroom.

:cool4:

:agree:

thats the Bolton spy, who cut Jaime's hand off

I know. I was commenting that he was showing up as a new recruit, because there was some speculation that he would simply show up at CB as an envoy of the new Warden of the North to have a look around for Bran and Rickon.

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

What is so interesting about Cold Hands?

Everything.