[Book & Show Spoilers] "First of His Name" Promo

[King Tommen]

That is the most plausible explanation so far, but I doubt that Ghost (book Ghost) would have even let Jon put him in a cage.

Jon locks Ghost up at Castle Black in ADwD and there are lots of instances of all the direwolves being locked up over the course of the books. I think it's plausible that Ghost, who is presumably with the NW crew that headed back to Craster's from the Fist after saving Sam from the wight, would be locked up outside (probably by Sam) since Craster wouldn't want him anywhere near the Keep.

It's a bit of a contrivance but I certainly like this explanation better than that he was just dicking around North of the Wall not doing anything for the past couple seasons.

[darksellsword]

oh I remember what I wanted to talk about. This next episode with Jon, Bran and the Mutineers seems like a red wedding redo scenario .

Greywind was penned up like ghost is now. Robb couldn't fight back against a swarm of cut throat frey traitors Jon will against the traitors of the nights watch .Arya never got to be renunited with Robb but Bran has that chance with Jon.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

No, you didn't miss anything. They never showed that. She presumably found out about it offscreen at some point between episode 3.05 and episode 3.07. One of the many irritating things about how they handled her story last year.

Smh. Its for moments like this that I agree with the criticism that important things are left out for the sake of 'boob' and sex scenes. Seeing her reaction to her little brothers being killed would have been good to see.

[Konradsmith]

The return of Kate Dickie! It's funny how it's been three years and she (and the Mountain) are still remembered. Admittedly she's mostly called "the one who still breast-feeds her son" or "the crazy aunt" by the casuals, but if that's enough to make them feel uneasy about Sansa (and to their minds, Arya) arriving at the Eyrie then that's a good thing. I bet you Kate Dickie and Sophie will really kill that commiseration scene.

Also after Michelle MacLaren's work on Sunday, I can't wait to see what she has up her sleeve for next week. The lighting in particular was really awesome and I can't wait to see how she lights that Eyrie set, which is one of the best made for the show and has been missed.

[Seneti]

Sansa crying in the arms of Lysa doesnt mean they've drop the Alayne Stone plot. Lysa is fully aware of Sansa's real identity and in private, Sansa could definitly let go all of her tears with her aunt... before realizing what a nut she is !

Agreed.

I'm not sure if they'll do the Alayne Stone thing or not, but I agree with your point about hiding in plain site. She can totally get away with this considering she hasn't been in the Vale since, what, she was a child (if ever! I don't recall if she ever visited The Vale before)? If that's the case, she won't be 'recognizable' to anyone even with red hair (save Yohn Royce).

I kind of assumed she was crying because Lysa is telling her that all they have is "each other" now. As a side note...does Show Sansa know Bran and Rickon are "dead"? Did I miss that scene?

This. We need to remember that Westeros is a place where travelling from one side of the country to the other takes months (no cars, no planes, no trains or coaches) and there is no such thing as TV or the internet - the chances that anybody in the Vale would ever have met Sansa, let alone remember her face, are more than slim.

[King Tommen]

Smh. Its for moments like this that I agree with the criticism that important things are left out for the sake of 'boob' and sex scenes. Seeing her reaction to her little brothers being killed would have been good to see.

Yeah, we should have got to see Sansa's reaction to Bran and Rickon's "deaths" the same way we got to read about it in the books. Oh wait....

[Konradsmith]

^Hehehehe.

[darksellsword]

What's going to happen with Locke . I can't see him attacking Jon soon. i think he is in it for the long haul .He may even be the ringleader for

the gang that stab Jon, It would be a lot easier for a show audience to keep track of Locke as the bad guy than trying to get all of that complicated

politics of the nights watch across to the viewers.

[King Tommen]

Here's the deal: every time something big happens on the show, they can't just zoom around to the 10 other storylines located all over the world to see how each of those groups of characters react to this news. There is often an assumed shorthand that they get the news off-screen at some point. It may be referenced down the road but you can't repeat the same info to different characters just to show their reaction because it gets repetitive. We get Cat and Robb's reaction to the news and the assumption is that the rest of the Starks would feel just as awful whenever they got the news too.

[King Tommen]

What's going to happen with Locke . I can't see him attacking Jon soon. i think he is in it for the long haul .He may even be the ringleader for

the gang that stab Jon, It would be a lot easier for a show audience to keep track of Locke as the bad guy than trying to get all of that complicated

politics of the nights watch across to the viewers.

On another thread, someone suggested that the NW member they could be planning to substitute into the Bowen Marsh role is Pyp. That hadn't occurred to me before but it actually would make a lot of sense. Pyp is not a longtime NW vet like Marsh was but he's a steward who you could certainly see promoted into a bigger role by Jon once he becomes LC. Pyp being a friend of Jon who slowly starts to disagree with his opinions would make for a more dramatic journey and the ultimate betrayal would be more emotional. If they were looking to use an existing character who the audience knows and is sympathetic to as opposed to bringing in an unknown guy who supposedly was hanging around the background all along, then I wouldn't mind it.

I have no idea what they have in store for Locke but if they are trying to make him the one who ultimately turns on Jon, it completely alters that entire arc and I'm not sure if that's what they're looking to do. Locke is an undercover evil spy looking for an opportunity to take out all the living Starks, not a supposed confidant who loses faith in Jon's leadership and eventually feels like killing him is the only way to save the NW.

[Colonel Green]

Yeah, we should have got to see Sansa's reaction to Bran and Rickon's "deaths" the same way we got to read about it in the books. Oh wait....

(1) In the books, Sansa found out about it in the gap between books, whereas in the show she had to have found out about it during the actual season due to how the writers altered the news getting out, so that's very different.

(2) While we didn't see her learn about the news, we did see her acknowledge their deaths and the impact it had on her, which the show has not done at all (indeed, she was cheery as hell in the episodes in question). Even when she's in mourning at the beginning of the season, she only talks about her mother and Robb -- I've seen many Unsullied who are confused about whether she even knows about it, which is very poor story structure.

Here's the deal: every time something big happens on the show, they can't just zoom around to the 10 other storylines located all over the world to see how each of those groups of characters react to this news. There is often an assumed shorthand that they get the news off-screen at some point. It may be referenced down the road but you can't repeat the same info to different characters just to show their reaction because it gets repetitive. We get Cat and Robb's reaction to the news and the assumption is that the rest of the Starks would feel just as awful whenever they got the news too.

No, you can't just assume that, since the characters are in different places, and Sansa never shows an indications she knows about it, nor is she written in a way that suggests she's heard about it. The deaths of her brothers directly affects Sansa. We should have seen something about it.

[King Tommen]

(1) In the books, Sansa found out about it in the gap between books, whereas in the show she had to have found out about it during the actual season due to how the writers altered the news getting out, so that's very different.

(2) While we didn't see her learn about the news, we did see her acknowledge their deaths and the impact it had on her, which the show has not done at all (indeed, she was cheery as hell in the episodes in question). Even when she's in mourning at the beginning of the season, she only talks about her mother and Robb -- I've seen many Unsullied who are confused about whether she even knows about it, which is very poor story structure.

No, you can't just assume that, since the characters are in different places, and Sansa never shows an indications she knows about it, nor is she written in a way that suggests she's heard about it. The deaths of her brothers directly affects Sansa. We should have seen something about it.

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/34297709249/doing-fine-thanks-and-i-think-someone-asked-this

In reading this, I don't really see much of anything about her reaction or any kind of significant impact it had on her. It's barely, barely mentioned in passing and definitely not in dialogue with another character which is how the show has to relay information.

On the show, she doesn't think she has any family anymore, that much appears pretty clear. Do we need her to specifically say "Bran and Rickon" for that to be confirmed?

[AlienTwo]

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/34297709249/doing-fine-thanks-and-i-think-someone-asked-this

In reading this, I don't really see much of anything about her reaction or any kind of significant impact it had on her. It's barely, barely mentioned in passing and definitely not in dialogue with another character which is how the show has to relay information.

On the show, she doesn't think she has any family anymore, that much appears pretty clear. Do we need her to specifically say "Bran and Rickon" for that to be confirmed?

No, I've been listening carefully for that.

In the books Cat even thinks they are dead as she gets a raven reporting as much. She dies thinking only Sansa and Arya are left of her clan, while in the show she dies thinking of Bran and Rickon as "missing" only.

[darksellsword]

On another thread, someone suggested that the NW member they could be planning to substitute into the Bowen Marsh role is Pyp. That hadn't occurred to me before but it actually would make a lot of sense. Pyp is not a longtime NW vet like Marsh was but he's a steward who you could certainly see promoted into a bigger role by Jon once he becomes LC. Pyp being a friend of Jon who slowly starts to disagree with his opinions would make for a more dramatic journey and the ultimate betrayal would be more emotional. If they were looking to use an existing character who the audience knows and is sympathetic to as opposed to bringing in an unknown guy who supposedly was hanging around the background all along, then I wouldn't mind it.

I have no idea what they have in store for Locke but if they are trying to make him the one who ultimately turns on Jon, it completely alters that entire arc and I'm not sure if that's what they're looking to do. Locke is an undercover evil spy looking for an opportunity to take out all the living Starks, not a supposed confidant who loses faith in Jon's leadership and eventually feels like killing him is the only way to save the NW.

I agree with you completely that the books version of events is far superior. I can't see how they can get the audience to the point were they know these secondary Characters to the extent that they see their problems with Jons leadership not in a tv show with such limited time. It would be much easier for them to have a villain lurkering around obviously intent on killing Jon, for me if Locke doesn't make an attempt on Jon's life in the next few episodes then it will be a confirmation that he is the conspirator and Jon will get stabbed next season.

[Colonel Green]

On the show, she doesn't think she has any family anymore, that much appears pretty clear. Do we need her to specifically say "Bran and Rickon" for that to be confirmed?

When they show her in mourning for Catelyn and Robb, the first time she's ever been shown in mourning since Ned's death, and Bran and Rickon are never mentioned, yeah, it's far from clear.

[King Tommen]

No, I've been listening carefully for that.

In the books Cat even thinks they are dead as she gets a raven reporting as much. She dies thinking only Sansa and Arya are left of her clan, while in the show she dies thinking of Bran and Rickon as "missing" only.

There's actually a scene later on in the show where Catelyn basically tells Robb that there's no way they're missing as he insists is still a possibility.

[Annara Snow]

In the books, Lysa is very aware that Sansa is Sansa and they do commiserate initially. Lysa gets jealous of her in about 10 seconds afterwards, but they do get to at least have some form of familial warmth when they first meet.

Lysa doesn't get jealous of her - visibly, at least - until the snow castle scene. The family warmth quickly disappears when Lysa tells Sansa she must marry her son (and Sansa immediately realizes that it's because of her claim to Winterfell, not any affection she has for her) and goes on to tell her that she's "little more than a beggar now", clearly implying that she has no choice. (In between there's also the lovely moment when Lysa asks Sansa if she's pregnant and shows her relief when she hears that she's still a virgin, since she wouldn't like her son to get "dwarf's leavings".)

[AlienTwo]

There's actually a scene later on in the show where Catelyn basically tells Robb that there's no way they're missing as he insists is still a possibility.

True, but it's still just her intuition that tells her that, where in the books she gets a raven that states unequivocally that her two youngest boys are dead, burned and hanged.

[King Tommen]

When they show her in mourning for Catelyn and Robb, the first time she's ever been shown in mourning since Ned's death, and Bran and Rickon are never mentioned, yeah, it's far from clear.

But I think at this point it is. Her reaction to LF telling her that going to the Vale with Lysa is the only safe place for her would be an opportunity to mention Bran and Rickon if she thought they were still alive. It's obviously not mentioned, but I think her knowledge is very much implied. She learned about it and dealt with it off-screen. The same way Jon did with Robb and Cat.

[King Tommen]

True, but it's still just her intuition that tells her that, where in the books she gets a raven that states unequivocally that her two youngest boys are dead, burned and hanged.

Right. Not sure why that's really important. She knows in her heart that they're probably dead. Who cares if she gets 100% confirmation or not.