Could Orcs in Tolkien's subcreation be redeemed? And other obscure questions about Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

[fionwe1987]

Larry,

But Scranc are a "weapons race" do they have independent consciousness or are they "philosphical zombies"?

It seems pretty clear that Tolkien wrote orcs with independent conscousness. Look at the debate between the two orc commanders in "The Choices of Master Samwise" at the end of The Two Towers. Clearly they debated and questioned what their courses of action should be. They had independent choice and the ability to defy their "master".

But didn't the Orcs also lose the will to fight and run away the moment the Ring was destroyed? To me, it implies that Orcs are elves who've been corrupted so Morgoth/Sauron could induce evil tendencies in them, making their choices evil most of the time.

I always took their loss of will to fight when Sauron was gone to mean that they could now slowly redeem themselves. They were no longer bound to his power, and could move past their enforced habits.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

fionwe,

They did scatter. But we do not know if they then saw their actions during the various wars as "evil". If they were just pissed they lost then they'll head for the mountains wait for a new leader and hit back when they're able. If some then saw their actions as "evil" perhaps they attempted to redeem themselves.

Orcs seeking redemption would be an interesting perspective for a "4th age" story.

(Great to see you posting :) )

[SpaceChampion]

This dilemma just shows the inherent problem with the romantic's view of the world, and why romanticism leads to fascism. It doesn't make any sense because it can't possibly. The basic idea is that you are corrupted only because of weakness of will, and you are not corrupted because of strength of will. To the romantic everything is in terms of strength and weakness; the strong are good and the weak are bad. For the orcs to be redeemed they must transform into not-orcs. They must become elves once again.

[Spring Bass]

The Orcs coming from captured Elves is the Elvish belief in-universe on where they came from, but Tolkien himself rejected this and never settled down on a particular source for them. At different times they were corrupted humans (although the timeline doesn't make that work), animals that Morgoth programmed so thoroughly that they had a fascimile of consciousness and will plus the ability to speak, and even low-level maiar spirits - or all of the above, since he mentions that Morgoth interbred the Orcs with brutalized humans and elves.

If they have spirits, then they can theoretically be redeemed, although the level of bad blood/ill will between them and men/elves is so deep that it's unlikely that they would ever work it out. The only time we see someone actually become friendly with the Orcs to the point where they have an endearing nickname for him is with Saruman (they hate Sauron but are compelled to obey him), so it's possible. Of course there's not a lot of pressure on Fourth Age Humanity to reconcile with the remaining Orcs, since their growth appears to be tied to the power of the beings that made them (Sauron and Morgoth), and Sauron's demise probably means they quickly dwindled and disappeared (like the last time Sauron was beat, after which they dwindled to a handful of feuding packs in the Misty Mountains and Mountains of Shadow).

[Bolivar]

This dilemma just shows the inherent problem with the romantic's view of the world, and why romanticism leads to fascism. It doesn't make any sense because it can't possibly. The basic idea is that you are corrupted only because of weakness of will, and you are not corrupted because of strength of will. To the romantic everything is in terms of strength and weakness; the strong are good and the weak are bad. For the orcs to be redeemed they must transform into not-orcs. They must become elves once again.

I think Tolkien's work takes a more nuanced approach to "strength" and "weakness" than you're giving it credit for.

[Werthead]

If you read Unfinished Tales and, IIRC, some of the Letters by J.R.R. Tolkien you can see that Tolkien did accept at the end of his life that the orcs were depicted fairly one-dimensionally and that 'good' orcs would at least be possible. However, he died before he could take steps to make that 100% clear. It was the same time period he was trying to sort out Galadriel and Celeborn's confusing biographies and didn't finalise it before he passed away.

Tolkien's view of politics seemed to tend towards the simplistic. Reading his biographies, it looks like he immensely disliked paying income tax but also declined to banking trickery to get around it. He also believed for a long time that Russia was responsible for WWII, and may have despised Stalin far more than Hitler (at least until the full extent of Nazi atrocities became clear; certainly Tolkien immensely disliked Nazism as well and wrote German publishers a sharp letter refusing to let them publish The Hobbit because of their attitudes to Jews). The everyday bureaucracy of politics is something he clearly despised.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SC,

This dilemma just shows the inherent problem with the romantic's view of the world, and why romanticism leads to fascism. It doesn't make any sense because it can't possibly. The basic idea is that you are corrupted only because of weakness of will, and you are not corrupted because of strength of will. To the romantic everything is in terms of strength and weakness; the strong are good and the weak are bad. For the orcs to be redeemed they must transform into not-orcs. They must become elves once again.

Because I'm a romantic... I'm a fascist? Huh?

[Darth Richard II]

SC,

Because I'm a romantic... I'm a fascist? Huh?

Yeah I'm lost on that one too.

Also I think a lot of the debates you see around Tolkien on the internet usually end up being between people who read the books and people who only saw the movies, but no one ever sates either, so you get wildly different interpretations of things that makes both sides look crazy. Not saying that applies here, just something that popped into my head.

[Galactus]

SC,

Because I'm a romantic... I'm a fascist? Huh?

Well, not quite. Fascism however is a thoroughly romantic ideology. (which doesen't mean all romantics are fascists)

[fionwe1987]

fionwe,

They did scatter. But we do not know if they then saw their actions during the various wars as "evil". If they were just pissed they lost then they'll head for the mountains wait for a new leader and hit back when they're able. If some then saw their actions as "evil" perhaps they attempted to redeem themselves.

Orcs seeking redemption would be an interesting perspective for a "4th age" story.

(Great to see you posting :) )

I saw the scattering as a loss of will to fight. I'm pretty sure that is explicitly stated. The moment the Ring is cast into Orodruin, the Orcs scatter. Its not a considered decision based on self-interest or anger.

On the other hand, there is some mention of a new evil in the East troubling Aragon's heir. It was even conceived of as a sequel, which Tolkien abandoned because he felt it was too mundane and human focused with the Elves and Wizards gone. If the new evil was Orcs, that kind of answers the question I think.

And thanks!

[SpaceChampion]

SC,

Because I'm a romantic... I'm a fascist? Huh?

This kind of reductive statement proves you are a romantic, at least. ;)

Like Galactus said, fascism is thoroughly romantic, but not all romantics are so extreme as to be fascists.

None of this should be a surprise. My impression has been that the origins of fascism in the romantic reaction to the enlightenment and to industrialism is one of most understood historical developments of 20th century philosophy. Is this not widespread and widely understood?

[jarl the climber]

But didn't the Orcs also lose the will to fight and run away the moment the Ring was destroyed? To me, it implies that Orcs are elves who've been corrupted so Morgoth/Sauron could induce evil tendencies in them, making their choices evil most of the time.

I always took their loss of will to fight when Sauron was gone to mean that they could now slowly redeem themselves. They were no longer bound to his power, and could move past their enforced habits.

From what I can recall he also implies that the orcs that fled the battlefield more or less crawled off into holes and died. Sarumans half orcs did not seem to be affected at all by Saurons death. The orcs and goblins left in the Misty Mountians and other areas had a grudge with the dwarfs that was outside of Aragorns control. I think the Dwarfs as well as the Elves would have no real compunction with commiting genocide against them. Still I think its likely that Sarumans half orcs sort of took the remaining orcs in hand and helped them blend into the world of men over time. I don't think they had to be good or redeemed to survive just able to pass as men.

[fionwe1987]

. It was the same time period he was trying to sort out Galadriel and Celeborn's confusing biographies and didn't finalise it before he passed away.

I've always been fascinated by the changes to Galadriel's story. By the end, he had her the equal of Feanor, who did not participate at the Kinslaying of Alqualonde, and was only caught under the Doom on Mandos on a technicality (or not, in another version, where she could have returned to Valinor any time, but sacrificed that to help men and Elves in Middle Earth). I always wonder how LotR would have read if he'd had her figured out by then, and possibly given her an even more active role (rather than the somewhat retconned behind the scenes nature of her influence on the events of the books).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SC,

I can see Fascism as a "romantic" notion. I simply wanted to be clear that being a romantic does not equate to being a fascist.

Back to the topic at hand do you think Tolkien intended for Orcs to be capable of finding redemption?

[fionwe1987]

Back to the topic at hand do you think Tolkien intended for Orcs to be capable of finding redemption?

It does seem that originally he did not, and then slowly changed his mind.

[jarl the climber]

SC,

I can see Fascism as a "romantic" notion. I simply wanted to be clear that being a romantic does not equate to being a fascist.

Back to the topic at hand do you think Tolkien intended for Orcs to be capable of finding redemption?

Interestingly I think he thought it might have been possible but that nobody would have given them the chance, at the same time Saruman by deliberate design gave them a backdoor to survival, which some of them undoubtfuly took and which probably sowed the seeds for future conflicts. Possibly the remanants of the Orcs could have been left in peace, but its clear in the books that Beorns descendants drove out the last of the orcs from the Misty Mountains. Mount Gundabad was of special signifigance to the dwarfs as well as Moria, Orcs were meant as a mockery to elves. I think its possible that Elronds sons and Celeborn partially for personal reasons stayed behind in Middle Earth to see that they were wiped out. Maybe its an unintentional indictment of the Free People and it led to the Orcs mixing with men and becommig a group or several groups/tribes that were warlike and hostile to other men.

[SpaceChampion]

Back to the topic at hand do you think Tolkien intended for Orcs to be capable of finding redemption?

I think he wanted to but he couldn't finding a romantic way to make that possible.

One might view Orc industrialism as their struggling to better themselves without redemption. Tolkien might say about that, "They chose... poorly."

Keep in mind that fascists though romantics are also pro-industrialism. It was not really rationalism that Tolkien was arguing against, just industrialism. So Orcs are romantic-industrialists just like the Nazis. Were the Nazis capable of redemption? Hell no.

The other question, what does that say about Tolkien's view of politics? Nothing, his subcreation was designed aesthetically, not politically. I don't recall any instances of justice being addressed, for instance. Smeagol never has to go on trial or be judged by his peers for the murder of Deagol. His suffering is entirely caused by his own self. Tolkien wanted to write about a world where people got what they deserved from the environment not the justice system. I guess he considered living trial enough. Perhaps being an orc was the judgement of the setting. Are orc souls reborn from humans and elves who were bad, and thus being an orc is a punishment for past crimes?

Seems like if you committed genocide against the orcs, they wouldn't be serving out their full sentences, and you risk being born as an orc yourself in your next life. Thus genocide would actually be impossible. More orcs would just emerge from the mud or wherever they come from, and you might be among them. That's if reincarnation is a thing in Tolkien's cosmology.

[Shryke]

That was brilliant...

On to the discussion... I am going to use this opportunity to bemoan the fact that you don't find Tom Bombadil in many adaptions of Tolkien's work. Bombadil was the other side of the coin that Tolkien created. He was a representation of good and purity. He was a physical representation of what was fought for.

Since allegorically, Tolkien was writing about the nature of ideals, I find it intrinsic that Orcs by their very nature are evil and the enemy of good.

Tom Bombadil isn't pure good. He's like a force of nature. Uncaring of ideas of good or evil.

[polishgenius]

Keep in mind that fascists though romantics are also pro-industrialism. It was not really rationalism that Tolkien was arguing against, just industrialism. So Orcs are romantic-industrialists just like the Nazis. Were the Nazis capable of redemption? Hell no.

I really hope you're not suggesting that every single Nazi was an irredeemably evil fuck with no hope of redemption. Because that is demonstrably untrue.

[fionwe1987]

A point that no one has brought up yet, I think:

The Valar clearly thought Morgoth could be redeemed. After a period of imprisonment, they free him and let him roam all over Valinor. Tolkein even says, in the Silmarillion, that Morogth's dark thoughts were very deeply buried, and save for Varda, none of the Valar see anything wrong in him at one point. Similarly, Gandalf gives Saruman the chance at redemption.

These two have created Orcs, and they can seemingly be redeemed. Does it make much sense that their creations cannot be?