Will the rest of Westeros ever realize how much they owe Stannis Baratheon?

[Mark Antony]

Since Stannis has no concern to seek those wildlings and save them, I hope he has a plan to stop them when they attack the Wall as wights by tens of thousands.

Was waiting for this comment :cheers:

[Stormland's Fury]

Pointing out the nonsense in the comment is nothing personal.

Stannis doesn't consider Sansa dead, and neither does half of Westeros looking for her. Yeah, he could have marched ALONE to seize Winterfell, without the support of lion's share of his army: the mountain clans. And that would be rather interesting campaign to see.

Well, Stannis could have easily abandoned the pursue the Throne since that is most practical thing to do, just like in Sansa's case. If the inheritance laws mean so little, why the hell you are waging war because of inheritance law? But, again, as I said, we shouldn't see this as solely act of Stannis' possible hypocrisy as some people do, but more as an act of abandoning rigid norms he abode to. We see Stannis who is playing the Game outside the rigidness of his "just cause' and that is a good progress, IMHO.

Again, I wasn't even really arguing anything, just presented a possibility. Calling it nonsense isn't really helping.

Yes, but we don't know what would have happened if Sansa reappeared in the North.

I see it more as Stannis actually being there to press his claim while Sansa doesn't. That's the difference for the bypassing.

[Mladen]

Again, I wasn't even really arguing anything, just presented a possibility. Calling it nonsense isn't really helping.

Yes, but we don't know what would have happened if Sansa reappeared in the North.

I see it more as Stannis actually being there to press his claim while Sansa doesn't. That's the difference for the bypassing.

I am saying that it is a nonsense that Stannis would believe so based on the case being the common in Westeros. It simply isn't. 12 year-old girl doesn't usually get married for their enemies out of ambition.

Stannis can't press any claim since he has no army to do that. The support he got was based on saving Ned's daughter, not because of his desire to conquer WF. And that is something that proved both practical and moral for Stannis. He is doing something morally good and he is getting entire army for that. If he pressed his claim on WF, he would have had more enemies than he has now.

[Stormland's Fury]

I am saying that it is a nonsense that Stannis would believe so based on the case being the common in Westeros. It simply isn't. 12 year-old girl doesn't usually get married for their enemies out of ambition.

Stannis can't press any claim since he has no army to do that. The support he got was based on saving Ned's daughter, not because of his desire to conquer WF. And that is something that proved both practical and moral for Stannis. He is doing something morally good and he is getting entire army for that. If he pressed his claim on WF, he would have had more enemies than he has now.

Coerced then.

Well he pressed it, just as Renly did. That's why he wrote a letter to the whole realm. Sansa never proclaimed to be the lady of Winterfell.

You don't need an army to do those things and Stannis had a big fleet in any case.

[Mladen]

Well he pressed it, just as Renly did. That's why he wrote a letter to the whole realm. Sansa never proclaimed to be the lady of Winterfell.

You don't need an army to do those things and Stannis had a big fleet in any case.

Thing is Stannis could have never attacked WF without the support of Northmen, nor could he have hoped of success. The most of his army is from mountain clans, and they didn't come to support his claim, but to save Ned's daughter. So, he would have never attacked WF if there was not for mountain clans who did it out of loyalty for Starks.

[Stormland's Fury]

Thing is Stannis could have never attacked WF without the support of Northmen, nor could he have hoped of success. The most of his army is from mountain clans, and they didn't come to support his claim, but to save Ned's daughter. So, he would have never attacked WF if there was not for mountain clans who did it out of loyalty for Starks.

I don't really think that would stop Stannis. Not sure what he was really to do in that case. Staying at the wall I guess, but he still wanted to free Arya in any case. I think his priority is to have the Status Quo re-established in the North as soon as possible and gather men. Who would actually be in charge after he won could be sorted out later.

[Lord Damian]

Stannis is Robert's true blood heir. Pretty much everyone knows that but the Tyrells and their huge army are propping the pretender and his Lannister family up, The Freys are too but that is tenous. The truth is, no one cares about Stannis etc. The door is open for a heroic leader with old blood. Maybe not heoric but someone at the right place at the right time.

[The hairy bear]

What does this have to do with anything?

The OP says that Westeros owes a great debt to Stannis because he protected it while it was in disarray. I'm just saying that one of the contributors of the realm being in disarray is Stannis himself.

And Renly betrayed Stannis. He owed him fealty, he was the rightful king, and not to mention his older brother!

Renly didn't know that Stannis was the rightful king, so he didn't betray him. The Robert comparison does not work: in the Rebellion, Robert was Lord of Storm's end and Stannis his subject. However, during the war of the five kings both Stannis and Renly were lords.

And while we are discussing betrayals to older brothers, how would you describe Stannis actions in KL? He suspected that Cersei's children were bastards and that Jon Arryn had been murdered, but instead of sharing it with Robert or at least ty to protect him, he cowardly left him alone after giving a tantrum because he hadn't been named hand.

Hence Westeros owes him a great debt they may never be able to repay

I don't see it that way. Defending the Wall was a noble act (although he really didn't have anywhere else to go), but at the end of the day Westeros would be in a better place if he hadn't done nothing.

There's a reason why Dany's vision in tHotU shows Westeros being ravaged by four dwarves and not three.

[Nyrhex]

Was waiting for this comment :cheers:

You were? Why? Bringing the Wildlings south is Stannis' idea. Jon continues Stannis' project while Stannis is securing the North.

[Stormland's Fury]

The OP says that Westeros owes a great debt to Stannis because he protected it while it was in disarray. I'm just saying that one of the contributors of the realm being in disarray is Stannis himself.

Why? It was already at war because of a multitude of reasons before Stannis even started to move.

Renly didn't know that Stannis was the rightful king, so he didn't betray him. The Robert comparison does not work: in the Rebellion, Robert was Lord of Storm's end and Stannis his subject. However, during the war of the five kings both Stannis and Renly were lords.

And while we are discussing betrayals to older brothers, how would you describe Stannis actions in KL? He suspected that Cersei's children were bastards and that Jon Arryn had been murdered, but instead of sharing it with Robert or at least ty to protect him, he cowardly left him alone after giving a tantrum because he hadn't been named hand.

Renly still believed Joffrey was the rightful king, thus not only trying to usurp hi own nephew but also bypassing his older brother. It doesn't matter if they're lord in their own rights there still a succession.

Stannis already contacted Jon Arryn who didn't chose to tell Robert either because of lack of evidence. Stannis retreated and gathered a fleet for a year to subdue the Lannisters. Renly tried the same in his own way.

[To catch a Lannister]

There's a reason why Dany's vision in tHotU shows Westeros being ravaged by four dwarves and not three.

Dwarves? Iiiiiiii must have missed that part in the book...

[Stormland's Fury]

You were? Why? Bringing the Wildlings south is Stannis' idea. Jon continues Stannis' project while Stannis is securing the North.

I think they meant the Wildlings that fled and were routed due to the battle.

Which is still not really doable since they split and scattered all over a huge area covered in forest. The resources alone needed to catch them would not be worth it and better used to secure the North, thus gathering more men.

[briantw]

The wildlings would have crumbled the second they went against an actual army, as was evidenced by how easily Stannis' meager force tore through them. Ultimately, they only really could have been a threat to the North, and even then only if they took them unprepared. By the time the wildlings made it out of the North, the southron lords would have surely heard about it and put together an army big enough to crush them.

[Mithras]

Nine, Tom Barleycorn had said, and nine there were, but two were dead and one so weak he might have died by morning. The six who remained included a mother and child, two old men, a wounded Thenn in battered bronze, and one of the Hornfoot folk, his bare feet so badly frostbitten that Jon knew at a glance he would never walk again. Most had been strangers to one another when they came to the grove, he learned subsequently; when Stannis broke Mance Rayder’s host, they had fled into the woods to escape the carnage, wandered for a time, lost friends and kin to cold and starvation, and finally washed up here, too weak and weary to go on. “The gods are here,” one of the old men said. “This was as good a place to die as any.”

“The Wall is only a few hours south of here,” said Jon. “Why not seek shelter there? Others yielded. Even Mance.”

The wildlings exchanged looks. Finally one said, “We heard stories. The crows burned all them that yielded.”

“Even Mance hisself,” the woman added.

Melisandre, Jon thought, you and your red god have much and more to answer for.

[Stormland's Fury]

The wildlings would have crumbled the second they went against an actual army, as was evidenced by how easily Stannis' meager force tore through them. Ultimately, they only really could have been a threat to the North, and even then only if they took them unprepared. By the time the wildlings made it out of the North, the southron lords would have surely heard about it and put together an army big enough to crush them.

I doubt the Wildlings would have stayed together once they crossed. They would scatter all over the place, especially since such a huge army couldn't live of raiding village after village and they have no experience in besieging castles.

The lords could have the biggest armies they could gather but it would hard to fight against a decentralized enemy that is wreaking havoc all over the place.

[Mark Antony]

You can come south f you burn some Weirwood bark!!!

#rhllor #lordoflight #fucktheoldgods

[Nyrhex]

Nine, Tom Barleycorn had said, and nine there were, but two were dead and one so weak he might have died by morning. The six who remained included a mother and child, two old men, a wounded Thenn in battered bronze, and one of the Hornfoot folk, his bare feet so badly frostbitten that Jon knew at a glance he would never walk again. Most had been strangers to one another when they came to the grove, he learned subsequently; when Stannis broke Mance Rayder’s host, they had fled into the woods to escape the carnage, wandered for a time, lost friends and kin to cold and starvation, and finally washed up here, too weak and weary to go on. “The gods are here,” one of the old men said. “This was as good a place to die as any.”

“The Wall is only a few hours south of here,” said Jon. “Why not seek shelter there? Others yielded. Even Mance.”

The wildlings exchanged looks. Finally one said, “We heard stories. The crows burned all them that yielded.”

“Even Mance hisself,” the woman added.

Melisandre, Jon thought, you and your red god have much and more to answer for.

Some shivering, some too numb to shiver, they listened as the king’s voice rumbled off the Wall.

“You are free to go,” Stannis told them. “Tell your people what you witnessed. Tell them that you saw

the true king, and that they are welcome in his realm, so long as they keep his peace. Else-wise, they had

best flee or hide. I will brook no further attacks upon my Wall.”

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Somehow "come into the King's Peace" has turned into "come and we'll burn you".

Basically, the two score Wildlings that Stannis sent free to spread the word have turned his offer into something else. How? Why?

[To catch a Lannister]

Some shivering, some too numb to shiver, they listened as the king’s voice rumbled off the Wall.

“You are free to go,” Stannis told them. “Tell your people what you witnessed. Tell them that you saw

the true king, and that they are welcome in his realm, so long as they keep his peace. Else-wise, they had

best flee or hide. I will brook no further attacks upon my Wall.”

#chills

[Tankbuster]

The wildlings would have crumbled the second they went against an actual army, as was evidenced by how easily Stannis' meager force tore through them. Ultimately, they only really could have been a threat to the North, and even then only if they took them unprepared. By the time the wildlings made it out of the North, the southron lords would have surely heard about it and put together an army big enough to crush them.

That army would be led by Rayder, who would be smart enough to make a dash for the moat and garrison it.

[The hairy bear]

Why? It was already at war because of a multitude of reasons before Stannis even started to move.

I'm not saying that Stannis started it. I'm only saying that he could have contributed to stabilize the realm, and instead he did the opposite.

If Stannis had remained in Dragonstone and had not used dark arts to kill Renly, the realm would likely be a safer place now: The combined Stormlands and Reach force would have defeated the Lannisters, and the Kingdom of the North wouldn't have fought Renly and one way or another would come back to the realm after a truce. Don't you agree?

Renly still believed Joffrey was the rightful king, thus not only trying to usurp hi own nephew but also bypassing his older brother. It doesn't matter if they're lord in their own rights there still a succession.

That Renly tried to usurp the throne from Joffrey is something that he himself acknowledged. But he owed no fealty to Stannis. He was the head of his own household, and was trying to win the throne by right of conquest.

The only way Renly would owe fealty to Stannis is if the later became king by suceeding Robert. But Renly saw Joffrey as Robert's heir, so he and Stannis were both lords and he didn't have to take orders from him.

Stannis already contacted Jon Arryn who didn't chose to tell Robert either because of lack of evidence. Stannis retreated and gathered a fleet for a year to subdue the Lannisters. Renly tried the same in his own way.

Jon and Stannis were looking for evidences together. They had seen the bastards. Then, suddenly, Jon Arryn dies. Not warning Robert at this point can't be justified.

You say that he "retreated" to Dragonstone to gather a fleet for a year to subdue the Lannisters. That's not supported by the text. But even if that was the case, why not warn Robert? Why not at least confide the truth to Eddard, Barristan or Renly so they can protect him? Why didn't he try to forge an anti-Lannister alliance? Would you really say that he defended his brother's interests satisfactorily?