When Is 'The World of Ice and Fire' Coming Out, Vol.3

[Ghost's Shadow]

For me, it's 23,72€ for the world book, and the moment I heard D&E was going to be illustrated, I ordered it for 22,64€.

[Bael's Bastard]

Ran,

Not sure if you can answer this, but I was wondering if the world book will clarify something about Orys.

Was Orys legally legitimate and his being a bastard was part of the rumor (like Cersei's children)?

Or was he legally a bastard and only the identity of his father (as Aegon's father) was the rumor?

Is his being a bastard a rumor, or was that confirmed and out in the open?

I obviously don't expect to find out whether he was truly Aegon's bastard half brother or not, but will we find out the above?

[Ran]

His alleged illegitimacy and blood-ties to Aegon are touched on in the book, and we get more details about the nature and extent of their relationship.

[Bael's Bastard]

Thank you!

[Moondancer]

Bael's Bastard,

Orys is said to be baseborn in the excerpt at GRRM's site.

[Bael's Bastard]

Bael's Bastard,

Orys is said to be baseborn in the excerpt at GRRM's site.

Where? The quotes I see about Orys are,

"The Lord of Dragonstone countered with an offer of his own. He would take the dower lands being offered if Argilac would also cede Massey’s Hook and the woods and plains from the Blackwater south to the river Wendwater and the headwaters of the Mander. The pact would be sealed by the marriage of King Argilac’s daughter to Orys Baratheon, Lord Aegon’s childhood friend and champion."

"These terms Argilac the Arrogant rejected angrily. Orys Baratheon was a baseborn half brother to Lord Aegon, it was whispered, and the Storm King would not dishonor his daughter by giving her hand to a bastard. The very suggestion enraged him. Argilac had the hands of Aegon’s envoy cut off and returned to Dragonstone in a box. “These are the only hands your bastard shall have of me,” he wrote."

IMO, these quotes do not clarify if Orys was legally a bastard, or if Orys was legally legitimate and rumored to be a bastard.

The language here actually caused me to lean toward thinking the illegitimacy part was also a rumor, and not his actual legal status.

[Moondancer]

OK then. :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But if the rumor is that he was Aegons baseborn brother, wouldn't that at least confirm the baseborn part? If the mother was highborn as well, he would have been a bastard born brother, right?

[Bael's Bastard]

But if the rumor is that he was Aegons baseborn brother, wouldn't that at least confirm the baseborn part? If the mother was highborn as well, he would have been a bastard born brother, right?

I think it probably means that Orys' mother was of low birth whether Orys was legitimate or illegitimate (if it is indeed Aerion and not Velaena who is rumored to be the common parent of Aegon and Orys).

However, my interest in this case is whether Orys was legally recognized as legitimate or legally recognized as illegitimate growing up.

In the first case, it would be both the illegitimacy and the "actual" parent that are rumored, while in the second case the illegitimacy would be a known given, and only the "actual parent" would be rumored.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think it probably means that Orys' mother was of low birth (if it is indeed Aerion and not Velaena who is rumored to be the common parent of Aegon and Orys).

However, my interest in this case is whether Orys was legally recognized as legitimate or legally recognized as illegitimate growing up.

In the first case, it would be both the illegitimacy and the "actual" parent that are rumored, while in the second case the illegitimacy would be a known given, and only the "actual parent" would be rumored.

I see.

Well, if it was Valaena who was the common parent, than it would be known that Orys had been born out of wedlock, now wouldn't it? For a woman, it's kind of hard to hide and to disproof, while for a man, nothing can be proven without DNA tests, and they didn't have those :p

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Ran,

There is a section about the Shivering Sea. At first, I assumed it was going to deal with Ibben but then I saw Ib section, then I thought it would be about the Thousand Isles, and I saw The East of Ib, which I think will deal with the Thousand Isles and Mossovy. So here's the question; why there is a section about the Shivering Sea?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ran, with the World Book being a book written by a maester for Robert, is there any chance Robert's maternal family will be discussed? The text in the books contradicts on the topic of the Estermonts, with several versions of a family tree being the result.

[Lord Varys]

What's the matter with the Estermonts, exactly?

If Valaena was Orys' mother it would either be not known that Orys was not Aerion's child (i.e. if she had a secret lover while already been married to Aerion), or he would have been considerably younger/older than Aegon and his sisters, either being born before Valaena got married or after Aerion's death.

But my guess is that Aerion is supposed to be Orys' father, anyway. I even seem to recall that this was confirmed somewhere already. The Orys-situation seems to similar to the Addam/Alyn of Hull, who were also not acknowledged as bastards, causing doubts on their paternity afterwards.

Another complication is the name 'Baratheon'. An unacknowledged, baseborn bastard should bear no name whatsoever, whereas a child born in the marriage would have been a legitimate Targaryen in any case, so it would not really make sense to assume that Orys' mother/father was named 'Baratheon'. But if that's the case, where the hell does the name come from?

My guess is that 'Baratheon' is Valyrian word Orys chose as his family name. Either that, or the Targaryens still practiced some ancient Valyrian traditions on Dragonstone allowing bastards to bear the name of their parents.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What's the matter with the Estermonts, exactly?

If Valaena was Orys' mother it would either be not known that Orys was not Aerion's child (i.e. if she had a secret lover while already been married to Aerion), or he would have been considerably younger/older than Aegon and his sisters, either being born before Valaena got married or after Aerion's death.

But my guess is that Aerion is supposed to be Orys' father, anyway. I even seem to recall that this was confirmed somewhere already. The Orys-situation seems to similar to the Addam/Alyn of Hull, who were also not acknowledged as bastards, causing doubts on their paternity afterwards.

Another complication is the name 'Baratheon'. An unacknowledged, baseborn bastard should bear no name whatsoever, whereas a child born in the marriage would have been a legitimate Targaryen in any case, so it would not really make sense to assume that Orys' mother/father was named 'Baratheon'. But if that's the case, where the hell does the name come from?

My guess is that 'Baratheon' is Valyrian word Orys chose as his family name. Either that, or the Targaryens still practiced some ancient Valyrian traditions on Dragonstone allowing bastards to bear the name of their parents.

We've discussed the Estermonts here. (don't get thrown off track because it starts about Lannisters, we got the conversation to the Estermonts quickly, and it stayed there.) Basically, the information in the books contradicts each other, but the information in the appendixes also contradicts each other.

Eldon seems to be both the uncle and the great-uncle of Robert, Stannis and Renly. Lomas Estermont is Eldon's son in some books, but seems to be Eldons brother in others... We've made a wiki page on it too, showing all the possible family trees

[Arataniello]

Another complication is the name 'Baratheon'. An unacknowledged, baseborn bastard should bear no name whatsoever, whereas a child born in the marriage would have been a legitimate Targaryen in any case, so it would not really make sense to assume that Orys' mother/father was named 'Baratheon'. But if that's the case, where the hell does the name come from?

That's the Westerosi "method" for naming bastards, in the "current" time period. Three hundred years ago, for Valyrians, there may have been a different naming convention for bastards.

[Bael's Bastard]

The wording of mentions of Orys being a bastard make it unclear whether he was legally a bastard or only rumored to be a bastard. I think his mother is almost certainly of low birth, but I think Orys will legally be the legitimate son of a Baratheon man, regardless of what he truly was biologically.

[RumHam]

Apparently Martin will be doing another reading from this on Saturday at ConCarolinas. Hopefully we'll get some good reports.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Let's hope someone makes a detailed summary of the reading later on :)

[HexMachina]

Apparently Martin will be doing another reading from this on Saturday at ConCarolinas. Hopefully we'll get some good reports.

Are you sure it isnt one we have already had? I thought he had said (or.it.might have been Ran now that I think..) that we had enough pre-release stuff?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Are you sure it isnt one we have already had? I thought he had said (or.it.might have been Ran now that I think..) that we had enough pre-release stuff?

Even if it is one we've had already during a reading, that can only mean the reports will be more detailed :) But on GRRMs not a blog only this is stated:

And I'll be doing a reading. This time, I think, a selection from the forthcominh WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE, for all you fake history fans.