[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa IX: The birth of Alayne Stone

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

I agree. I believe the show will run for a maximum of 7 seasons and that D&D have the general outline set out already. They're more than half way through the series and if they didn't have the majority of the story finalised by now they would be facing serious pacing problems. As the series continues, with the amount of story that they have to get through to bring everything to the conclusion they're going to have to be extremely selective about what makes the cut and what doesn't and their choices are going to be very telling.

Very succinct way of putting it. *Thumbs up* I think that after this season, though, if they're working toward the end, they need to come out and say it. I kind of don't want to go through a whole other season of 'nitpicking' over this and that and why they didn't included x-person, y-dialogue, z-event. Like, just come out and say, "We're beginning with the end in mind now," and if people don't like it, they can either stop watching and wait for the books, or prepare themselves to be "spoiled". Or better yet, just start hammering home that the show is the show and the books are the books, and while the two may end in the same place, the road to getting there will be some what distinct.

As a side note, I don't understand this angst about the show passing the books anyways. Its kind of inevitable now, and its not as if people aren't going to read the books just because the show "spoiled" things. I'm in agreement with a YouTube reviewer (comicbookgirl19) who basically said, "Let the show do its own thing and finish how it wants to finish, and that way GRRM has all the time and space in the world to finish a product he can be proud of without feeling rushed to do so." Definitely NOT an exact quote, but its the general sentiment. I agree with that sentiment. Let the show finish how it finishes and let GRRM produce a quality of work he can be proud of in the time he needs to do it.

[juanml82]

You mean, exactly what I said?

No, not quite. I was adding a second instance of Sansa thinking about Sansa as a fool and rounding all up by noting that, by AFFC, Sansa has a low opinion of her past self.

[Annara Snow]

No, not quite. I was adding a second instance of Sansa thinking about Sansa as a fool and rounding all up by noting that, by AFFC, Sansa has a low opinion of her past self.

No, you added an instance of Sansa thinking of 10/11-year old Sansa in Winterfell, pre-KL, a foolish little girl - so, exactly what I said. She never thinks as "Alayne" that "Sansa" was a stupid girl in general, or that she was stupid when she was in King's Landing as a hostage - she thinks she was frightened.

[juanml82]

No, you added an instance of Sansa thinking of 10/11-year old Sansa in Winterfell, pre-KL, a foolish little girl - so, exactly what I said. She never thinks as "Alayne" that "Sansa" was a stupid girl in general, or that she was stupid when she was in King's Landing as a hostage - she thinks she was frightened.

And you think she thinks she stopped being foolish when she developed a crush on Joffrey? That she wasn't foolish at Darry, for instance?

Listen, we are both stubborn, but I think we can agree that one of the few issues in which Sansa shows some self-reflection is about her overall dreamy and naive behaviour from early in the series. And remember, she was still thinking in true knights during the Battle of Blackwater, even if the words "sounded hollow" or however it was actually phrased, so it's not like she wised up the moment Joffrey showed her Ned's face.

This is reflected in the show. And, with Sophie's performance, it actually shows, if someone cares to see, how it should hurt for the character to think in that way. The good thing is that only by recognizing mistakes can people learn of them.

[Annara Snow]

And you think she thinks she stopped being foolish when she developed a crush on Joffrey? That she wasn't foolish at Darry, for instance?

Listen, we are both stubborn, but I think we can agree that one of the few issues in which Sansa shows some self-reflection is about her overall dreamy and naive behaviour from early in the series. And remember, she was still thinking in true knights during the Battle of Blackwater, even if the words "sounded hollow" or however it was actually phrased, so it's not like she wised up the moment Joffrey showed her Ned's face.

This is reflected in the show. And, with Sophie's performance, it actually shows, if someone cares to see, how it should hurt for the character to think in that way. The good thing is that only by recognizing mistakes can people learn of them.

Geez, do you even read my post before you reply to them? I said that she refers to her former self, her 10-11 year old self from Winterfell, as a foolish little girl, in her AFFC chapters. And I also said that it's no different from Sansa in early ASOS thinking about her former self (the one who was crushing on Joffrey, before she saw her father beheaded) as a naive little girl, similar to Marg's cousins who were going on about how handsome Joffrey was and what it would be like to kiss a king. And I also said that Sansa has had a steady character development, with the crucial moment being Ned's death. And I said that Sansa doesn't think that she was stupid when she was a hostage in King's Landing, but frightened. It really wasn't difficult to figure out what is generally the logical conclusion, anyway, that I was talking about a naive and sheltered Sansa who was still the same naive Sansa when she was crushing on Joffrey - in Winterfell, on the Kingsroad and for a time in KL (exactly because she was a naive and sheltered girl) - the Sansa who had a crush on good-looking highborn guys she didn't even know like Waymar Royce or Joffrey, and had a completely unrealistic view of life; as opposed to the disillusioned Sansa, who spent a year and a half (or whatever it was) as a frightened hostage in KL.

And she was silly and foolish because she was thinking about the concept of true knights during Blackwater? Really? So Arya was also silly and foolish when she thought in Harrenhal that Gregor's men were not behaving like knights are supposed to? Or when she thought Dareon deserved to die because he was breaking his NW vows and being a douche? So Brienne is generally silly and foolish? Dunk was silly and foolish, and so was Baelor Breakspear? Barristan is always silly and foolish? Jaime became silly and foolish when he decided that he needed to save Sansa because of his "honor"? Cat was silly and foolish when she accused him of having no honor? Jon is silly and foolish because he takes his vows seriously? Everyone who is not 100% cynical and doesn't see the world like Littlefinger is silly and foolish?

[juanml82]

And she was silly and foolish because she was thinking about the concept of true knights during Blackwater? Really?

It was after Kingsguards beat her repeatedly, so yes.

So Arya was also silly and foolish when she thought in Harrenhal that Gregor's men were not behaving like knights are supposed to?

Yes

Or when she thought Dareon deserved to die because he was breaking his NW vows and being a douche?

I'm not sure if silly is the word. "Evil" and all the associated slang seem to fit better.

So Brienne is generally silly and foolish?

Certainly.

Dunk was silly and foolish,

When he saved Tanselle? He probably wasn't thinking (with his head), so you could say so

and so was Baelor Breakspear?

Maybe, maybe not. Baelor Breakspear used to rule the Seven Kingdoms. And you can be the "soul of chivalry" because you're a fool, or because, in a proper Machiavellian way, you understand it's a very useful to tool to rule (but it can't be employed at all times)

Barristan is always silly and foolish?

Well, we have access to his thoughts and see his actions, so I'd say yes. And a bit craven as well.

Jaime became silly and foolish when he decided that he needed to save Sansa because of his "honor"?

Self-esteem and all that. Probably not. And it wasn't probably because of his honor, but because of his image of himself. Of course, he was foolish if he thought that Brienne would succed by riding through the Riverlands asking for her relative.

Cat was silly and foolish when she accused him of having no honor?

Well, no. Jaime has no honor. She was silly and foolish when she released him, though.

Jon is silly and foolish because he takes his vows seriously?

It depends. Defending the Wall and the North? Probably not. Not banging Ygritte at the first opportunity? Definitely.

[Colonel Green]

It was after Kingsguards beat her repeatedly, so yes.

Um, just because some knights don't keep their vows doesn't mean they all don't.

Martin's story features many characters trying to live up to their ideals, and struggling with it. But I can't see how you can read the text as endorsing the idea that trying to live up to those ideals is automatically foolish; the series isn't nihilistic, ultimately. It's about acknowledging the complexities of trying to live by ideals in the real world. There are "true knights" in Martin's world, just as there are monsters. Characters like Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Brienne of Tarth, Barristan Selmy, and Duncan the Tall breathe the same air as Gregor Clegane, Tywin Lannister, Roose and Ramsay Bolton, and the Brave Companions. Being good is hard, and rarely as clean in action as you would like.

[juanml82]

Um, just because some knights don't keep their vows doesn't mean they all don't.

Martin's story features many characters trying to live up to their ideals, and struggling with it. But I can't see how you can read the text as endorsing the idea that trying to live up to those ideals is automatically foolish; the series isn't nihilistic, ultimately. It's about acknowledging the complexities of trying to live by ideals in the real world. There are true knights in Martin's world, just as there are monsters. Characters like Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Brienne of Tarth, Barristan Selmy, and Duncan the Tall breathe the same air as Gregor Clegane, Tywin Lannister, Roose and Ramsay Bolton, and the Brave Companions.

The only one of your "good" examples who's a knight is Ser Barristan, and I don't rank high knights who witness the violent rape of their Queen.

Basically, this series is about the death of the fairy tale. Deal with it.

[Colonel Green]

The only one of your "good" examples who's a knight is Ser Barristan, and I don't rank high knights who witness the violent rape of their Queen.

Strictly speaking, one imagines that Jon Arryn was a knight before he became a lord. But regardless, whether one has actually sworn the vows is not the core of the matter (indeed, focusing on that is the sort of highly formalistic thing the series thinks doesn't matter), but the actions and the attempt to be a hero -- Brienne and Duncan are two of the most obvious examples of this theme, people who aren't technically knights but nevertheless try their hardest to live by the code.

The conflicting nature of knights' vows (indeed, all vows) are kind of a big theme in the series, and that's hardly a new idea in fiction, either. If you actually read the medieval stories of King Arthur and Camelot, the conflicts between the heart and ones oaths, and between different oaths, have always been present. Barristan's story wouldn't be out of place at the Round Table.

If you mean "fairy tale" in the sense of people being Good and Evil and the Good Guys win because of their moral superiority and live happily ever after, that's certainly true. But it seems like you mean that Martin is dismissing idealism itself, and that's not true. He shows that having ideals isn't a silver bullet, and in practice there are many challenges involved in trying to implement them in the real world. George R. R. Martin was a conscientious objector in Vietnam. I rather doubt that this series is about how idealism is fundamentally misguided, otherwise he should have just picked up a rifle and got on with it.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Lol Ser Barristan the Bold is not craven or foolish.

He's Ser Grandfather. Legend of our times. Smashing slavers between the hammer and the anvil.

Anyway...

Sansa's degelopment takes time in the novels. She starts noticing something isn't right with her view on true knights around the time of Neds execution.

But at the same time as some things opening her eyes to reality, there are oter people who more closely resemble her ideals... Ser Loras for example. Or Dontos. Even the hound, who isn't even a knight obviously.

So she kinda clings on to her ideals as they crumble around her I guess.

[Grail King]

I was disappointed that they've made Sansa LF's niece rather than his bastard daughter. Sansa's pushing herself to be "bastard brave" was, I felt, a significant step in her emotional development; feeling both hidden and bolder due to her bastard status. And I think making her LF's fake niece is less squicky if LF continues to touch Sansa, and less dramatic.

I wasn't sure if TV-Sansa was lying when she was babbling about LF thinking her a "stupid little girl", or she really believed it.

I thought Kate Dickie did a marvelous job, and actually pushed LF into some credible acting.

It came off to me that she was lying to her aunt, she combined her lines to Margery and Petyr to defuse the nutcase.

[Chebyshov]

It came off to me that she was lying to her aunt, she combined her lines to Margery and Petyr to defuse the nutcase.

That's how I read it. And it kind of recalled when Marg is trying to defuse Joff saying how she was just a "woman unfamiliar with the ways of war." I think Sansa uses her "stupid little girl" card in the same way.

[DaveyJoe]

Lol Ser Barristan the Bold is not craven or foolish.

He's Ser Grandfather. Legend of our times. Smashing slavers between the hammer and the anvil.

I love Barristan Selmy, he's one of my favorite characters, I was delighted that he got POV chapters in ADWD, I was even rocking a Barristan avatar for sometime... but he got played big time by the Shavepate.

[Pod The Impaler]

Well, according to this, Kate Dickie (174 cm) is almost as tall as Sophie Turner (175 cm). She's definitely taller than book!Lysa, who was significantly shorter than Sansa. However, she had big weight advantage, which show!Lysa definitely doesn't have. Although crazy people in a fit of rage can be surprisingly strong... But you'd expect the same - at the very least - from someone fighting for their life.

Well, in terms of drama, I think it has to be Lysa dragging someone to the Moon Door. Forget speculative measures of height and strength and leverage and so on: Lysa has "crazy person rage", and as justifications go, that'll do it.,

However, I do like the idea of Mord as a stand-in for Marillion.

1 - Someone has to open the damn door, and it makes sense that it would be him.

1.5 - Lysa has no guards with her, crucially. Perhaps as some state, perhaps it can be Lysa's intention to use Mord, but in her craziness, she changes her mind.

2 - Mord is dumb enough to just stand there and do nothing, and then be blamed (with whatever excuse LF decides to come up with).

It came off to me that she was lying to her aunt, she combined her lines to Margery and Petyr to defuse the nutcase.

Same here. I think she was just improvising to make crazy auntie leave her alone.

[DaveyJoe]

^ Yep, I think Mord is a good possibility, plus it would be a chance to show us that he used Tyrion's gold to make a new set of chompers. :D

[Petyr Patter]

On Alayne as a niece, did anyone else notice Robin call Littlfinger uncle?

Now, Littlefinger is his step-father.

There is still a theory circulating that he actually fathered Robin while having an affair with Lysa, which explains his small stature.

I think the creepiness of the situation from the books is still very much in play.

[Colonel Green]

So, we can sit back, enjoy it as it is, and wait for the moment until she finally saves herself or dies trying, or we can try to shoehorn a fairy tale or a Hollywood chick flick into her arc.

Who was talking about "fairy tales"? There's a difference between fairy tales and idealism. Martin is most certainly not saying that the latter is foolish -- the ideal of the "true knight" drives many of the characters as they try to do good, with the full understanding that the world isn't a fairy tale.

[Le Cygne]

"The Hound dismisses it" - way to miss the point of all of that. Subtext. He wants her to see him as her hero.

After she pats his shoulder and says his brother was not a true knight, the next day:

“The Hound has a hungry look about him this morning.”...

Ned Stark would have loved nothing so well as to see them both lose, but Sansa was watching it all moist-eyed and eager...

Sansa said, “I knew the Hound would win.”

And then he is a true knight and saves Ser Loras from his brother.

And if it was no big deal to walk into a 30-to-1 mob to save her, why didn't anyone else do it? Played out just like it did on the show, he was the only one willing to do it, and no one told him to do it. "I didn't do it for you."

Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead. “Ser Mandon, you were her shield.”

Ser Mandon Moore remained untroubled. “When they mobbed the Hound, I thought first of the king.”

“And rightly so,” Cersei put in. “Boros, Meryn, go back and find the girl.”...

Ser Boros did not look pleased at the prospect of leaving the safety of the castle...

“Stop it!” Cersei snapped. “Boros, you’ll do as you’re bid, or we’ll find someone else to wear that cloak. Your oath—”

“There she is!” Joffrey shouted, pointing.

Sandor Clegane cantered briskly through the gates astride Sansa’s chestnut courser. The girl was seated behind, both arms tight around the Hound’s chest.

[Le Cygne]

By the way that is described the same way in Cersei's fantasy, it's easy to see what the author is saying when you look at the words.

Rhaegar and Cersei (Cersei's fantasy):

And so it had, though once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest.

Sandor rescuing Sansa:

Sandor Clegane cantered briskly through the gates astride Sansa’s chestnut courser. The girl was seated behind, both arms tight around the Hound's chest.

Also he only uses the term moist-eyed twice in the series:

Catelyn remembering Jeyne Poole looking at Robb:

She had seen Jeyne Poole giving him moist-eyed glances, and some of the serving girls, even ones as old as eighteen...

Ned observing Sansa watching the Hound at the tournament:

Ned Stark would have loved nothing so well as to see them both lose, but Sansa was watching it all moist-eyed and eager.

Put the link in the next post...

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

I don't want to derail the thread talking of Ser Barristan, but... well, who am I kidding, I will...

Ser Barristan thinks he would have killed Robert if he was there when Robert said "I only see dragonspawn". The thing is, Ser Barristan had plenty of opportunities to kill Robert, considering any vows and pardons given by him are invalid since he's an usurper, and cross the Narrow Sea to deliver his head to his rightful King, Viserys of House Targaryen. And he ends up serving the Targaryens later on. There is a line in the show, said by Ned at Jaime which is something like this "You've served the Mad King well, while serving him was safe". And this sort of applies to Ser Barristan, who turns his cloak twice in the series. He served the Mad King well, while serving him gave him what he desired (well, except for Ashara), and then he did the same for Robert. He only looked for Danny when they told him his life as a White Cloak was at an end. If Joffrey hasn't dissmissed him, he would have reacted to Sansa Beating Time in the same fashion he reacted to Rhaella Targaryen Raping Time and, had Daennerys finally invaded Westeros, he would have fought under Joffrey's banner, against her.

But serving Joffrey no longer gave him the social position/job he wanted, so it was just then we he decided that the Targaryens were the true Kings after all.

I am completely with you on Barristan. I have never understood why so many people see him as extremely honourable and the epitome of a true knight. I don't think he is an evil man by any means but he is not as principled as people seem to believe and his changes of allegiance were completely self serving.

Who was talking about "fairy tales"? There's a difference between fairy tales and idealism. Martin is most certainly not saying that the latter is foolish -- the ideal of the "true knight" drives many of the characters as they try to do good, with the full understanding that the world isn't a fairy tale.

Agreed. The idealistic concept of the 'true knight' is present in the arcs of many characters, not only Sansa's but (most obviously though not exclusively) Brienne's and Jaime's too.