Septa Lemore is not Ashara Dayne

[Jon's Queen Consort]

All we know of Ashara is that she was Elia's confidante and not long at court.

Lady in waiting not confidante.A lady in waiting is nothing more than a glorified servant.

Queens' age has nothing to do with her lady's age, Bethany Blackwood who was born in 292 was supposed to be send in KL to be a Lady in Waiting for Cersei who was born in 266.

GRRM said it clearly, Ash would be in her 30.

Also using the "sexism" card has become boring, tacky and ridiculous.

[Chebyshov]

Or are people just assuming that Ned would never dance with an older woman or something? Or alternatively are people assuming that she would have been married by her mid-twenties so can't possibly have been that old? The first assumption is nothing but sexism, and the second is proven untrue by Arianne.

Well, the SSM saying Ashara is in her 30s would indicate that she was in her 30s, which means younger than Elia. If you want to say 39, okay, that puts her at 20 at the tourney...maybe Barry would still consider that a "young maiden."

Arianne is a very special case when it comes to betrothal, given her status as heir of Dorne (plus the secret pact so her really awful prospects). Doran started sending suitors her way around 15 or 16. Yes, ones he knew she'd spurn, but it's indicative that even in Dorne, once girls get their periods, they're on the market.

Still, in general, when an author tells us someone is in her 30s and then has a character put someone else "past 40," I'm not sure why there's still the suggestion that they are one in the same.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arthur's hair was silver. But I agree that dark means black in Ashara's case. Gerold has silver hair with a midnight black streak.

I do believe you, but where is stated? Because I actually looked for it and couldn't find it. In fact, some arts of Arthur show him with dark hair.

I'm not saying that it's a certainty Ashara is dead (though IMO the lack of a body probably because no one was fool enough to go splashing around in Dorne's southern shore), or that the Daynes won't have an important part to play. But trying to make Lemore fit as Ashara is not the way to go about it.

The lack of body makes the whole thing sadder, I think. Also, they describe her death quite specifically. Looks like people actually saw her jump, and that's quite an impossible death to survive. Unless Ashara was in fact a mexican cliff diver. :dunno:

Which reminds me... just as it is suggested that the image of the lizards with scythes that Syrio mentions to Arya are inspired by Jurassic Park, couldn't be that Ashara was also inspired by the death of Milady de Winter in the Three Musketeers? Both movies premiered in 1993. There, she jumped from a cliff to her death.

Don't forget the stretch marks! Only Ash was ever pregnant in Westerosi history.

Didn't we agree on Ashara to have birthed every child and have slept with every man?

Lemore's age is not precisely given and nor is Howland's. Howland was a young man at Harrenhal, and we can guess his age to be somewhat similar to Ned's but really we are just guessing if we put a precise number on it. So I don't see how age can be taken as any more of a definitive proof of anything than the eyes can. It is unknown.

It is not. It was given by George.

All we know of Ashara is that she was Elia's confidante and not long at court.

There is no evidence in the text saying she was her confidant. Only, her lady in waiting, and that's not the same. If she was, it had been not mentioned, not in the books, not by George.

I wouldn't discard it, though.

TWOIAF has said that Elia arrived to KL with Dornish companions. One of those could have been Ashara, and being close to Elia. But it's not stated, not even hinted at.

Or are people just assuming that Ned would never dance with an older woman or something? Or alternatively are people assuming that she would have been married by her mid-twenties so can't possibly have been that old? The first assumption is nothing but sexism, and the second is proven untrue by Arianne.

Arianne is a princess and her circumstances are different. Like Edmure or Wylas, she can choose because any spouse would be marrying into her and her house.

Ashara was single and apparently, not betrothed, which can only be explained by her age. I would even dare to speculate that Harrenhal was a way for her to find a match, and her dance partners were suitors (I'm sure she danced with more than those guys, they were only named because they were important). Either way, her pregnancy ruined her chances.

[Ser Leftwich]

"His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab."
- ADwD p. 879

Someone the other day made a good observation about the "not long at court" comment. It could be that Ashara was only in King's Landing at Aerys's court for a short time, she could have been

on Dragonstone with Elia, since Rhaegar and Elia took up residence there shortly after getting married, and only was KL for the first time on her way to the ToH

. It, like many phrases, is very subtlety worded.

[Bael's Bastard]

Regarding Arthur's hair color, I don't think it is has been stated anywhere in the books, and I don't recall it being stated definitively elsewhere.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Regarding Arthur's hair color, I don't think it is has been stated anywhere in the books, and I don't recall it being stated definitively elsewhere.

I agree. I don't think we're ever given his description.

I can't really picture him with long silver hair and violet eyes because he'd be Rhaegar's copy and I'm sure someone would have pointed out that the two BFFs kinda looked alike. I picture him with short blonde hair and violet eyes but he very well could have had dark hair like his sister.

Come to think of it, it's rather unusual for George to not to give Arthur's description. I understand that Arthur's looks are completely irrelevant for the story, his deeds and character are much more important, so that in itself is a good enough reason. The thing is, though, that George is extremely fond of people's description and he usually gives a rundown on pretty much any nobody we meet. Arthur is very much a recruiting character and it's hard to believe that George wouldn't have a specific picture in mind when he writes about him.

[Mithras]

I do believe you, but where is stated? Because I actually looked for it and couldn't find it. In fact, some arts of Arthur show him with dark hair.

I seem to recall his silver hair being mentioned but I could not find it. I might be wrong though. Still, Darkstar looks like a typical Valyrian.

Either way, her pregnancy ruined her chances.

Or perhaps it didnot. I am sure that the young lad who had just returned from God's Eye would not mind Ashara being pregnant, assuming that it was not from him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not even stated what was Arthur's eye colour. We're assuming it was purple.

...so.... Arthur is alive and any man whose eye colour hasn't been mentioned could be potentially him :dunno:

[Chebyshov]

The lack of body makes the whole thing sadder, I think. Also, they describe her death quite specifically. Looks like people actually saw her jump, and that's quite an impossible death to survive. Unless Ashara was in fact a mexican cliff diver. :dunno:

Which reminds me... just as it is suggested that the image of the lizards with scythes that Syrio mentions to Arya are inspired by Jurassic Park, couldn't be that Ashara was also inspired by the death of Milady de Winter in the Three Musketeers? Both movies premiered in 1993. There, she jumped from a cliff to her death.

I guess the people who think she survived were too influenced by this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWXOMbMPZrk

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I guess the people who think she survived were too influenced by this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWXOMbMPZrk

on the top of some tower in Starfall, next to the edge.

"Here... your brother's sword. Ashara... I... "

"it's too heavy... I can't... " *splash*

"Ashara???"

[Hangover of the Morning]

on the top of some tower in Starfall, next to the edge.

"Here... your brother's sword. Ashara... I... "

"it's too heavy... I can't... " *splash*

"Ashara???"

Ned pushed Ashara out of the tower. It is known.

She got all bonkers, thinking that Jon is her child that came back to life and refused to give him up.

[Veltigar]

Ned pushed Ashara out of the tower. It is known.

She got all bonkers, thinking that Jon is her child that came back to life and refused to give him up.

That's never going to be true. But if it did happen, I think that would have been a great twist.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Didn't we agree on Ashara to have birthed every child and have slept with every man?

Oh yes! Ashara of the hundred children.

on the top of some tower in Starfall, next to the edge.

"Here... your brother's sword. Ashara... I... "

"it's too heavy... I can't... " *splash*

"Ashara???"

"Can you save her?"

"I am a fisherman not a swimmer"

Salladhor Saan to the rescue.

Ned pushed Ashara out of the tower. It is known.

She got all bonkers, thinking that Jon is her child that came back to life and refused to give him up.

I am sorry but no.

Ash; I dishonored Lyanna Ned.

Ned; No you are lying! No! That's not true! That's impossible!

Ash; Search your feelings Ned.

Ned; NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! *Throws her of the tower*

[Mithras]

That's never going to be true. But if it did happen, I think that would have been a great twist.

Well for those who believe Dawn is the Lightbringer, in this case, Ned doomed Westeros too. If Ashara's body was never found, I doubt Dawn could be recovered too.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well for those who believe Dawn is the Lightbringer, in this case, Ned doomed Westeros too. If Ashara's body was never found, I doubt Dawn could be recovered too.

He caught Dawn on the falling. It's Ashara the one he couldn't reach.

[Mithras]

He caught Dawn on the falling. It's Ashara the one he couldn't reach.

A gentleman would go for the girl first. Bad Ned.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Well for those who believe Dawn is the Lightbringer, in this case, Ned doomed Westeros too. If Ashara's body was never found, I doubt Dawn could be recovered too.

Not sure what Dawn has to do with it. The crackpot simply imply that for some reason Ned was forced to push (or by accident pushed) Ashara out of the tower. There's no reason to suspect that Dawn would be in the same room. Presumably, Ned spent some time at Starfall (at least a day) so once he presented Ashara with Dawn, she put it somewhere safe instead of just walking around with it.

I find the scenario incredibly unlikely but it does have a certain appeal and would add depth to Ned's character. Maybe Ashara did get a bit mad, maybe she tried to kill Jon, or wanted to raise a rebellion in his stead... Maybe she and Ned argued and she slipped. Basically by external circumstances, Ned was more or less forced to kill her. No wonder, he blocked that memory out, and never thinks of Ashara.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

A gentleman would go for the girl first. Bad Ned.

...but is Dawn!

(I assure you that 1000 knights would have tried to catch Dawn instead of Ashara, Gerold Dayne included).

[Mithras]

...but is Dawn!

(I assure you that 1000 knights would have tried to catch Dawn instead of Ashara, Gerold Dayne included).

Dunk would go for the girl.

[Hippocras]

Lady in waiting not confidante.A lady in waiting is nothing more than a glorified servant.

Queens' age has nothing to do with her lady's age, Bethany Blackwood who was born in 292 was supposed to be send in KL to be a Lady in Waiting for Cersei who was born in 266.

GRRM said it clearly, Ash would be in her 30.

Also using the "sexism" card has become boring, tacky and ridiculous.

Where did GRRM say that? Where was Howland's or Lemore's age ever precisely given either? Tyrion's random guess is a ballpark that has a margin of error.

I don't give a shit what you think of the word sexism, it is what it is. assuming that male female relations always have to have the female at a disadvantage - ie. the younger, more naive partner is sexism. Or are you the kind of idiot who tries to pretend sexism simply doesn't exist?