US Politics: Confederacy vs Nazis vs USSR

[awesome possum]

one would hope that leaving our fellow citizens to die and not responding to their calls for aide is not met with a collective yawn, but I fear you are right

One would hope that after 10 congressional reports and 1 State Department review - all run by Republicans - on top of all the hearings that have turned up nothing, you would realize it was a tragedy not unlike the dozen or so similar tragedies during the Bush years.

Of course, that would require the extraordinary feat of you thinking for yourself.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

At around 8 p.m., Obama spends an hour on the phone with Benjamin Netanyahu to tamp down a breaking, politically injurious story that Obama had snubbed the Israeli prime minister. The White House then issues a readout saying the two leaders had agreed there had been no snub.

So the White House is engaged in campaign damage control quite literally in the middle of the Benghazi events — at a time when Ambassador Chris Stevens is still missing and the final firefight that killed two other Americans is still three hours away. We’ve just learned that Obama was not in the Situation Room that night. Then where, doing what?

What a bullshit characterization that is- Obama was on the phone with the leader of a major US ally. You think maybe it's a little bit more than 'campaign' issue to have a good relationship with Israel? I know Republicans think so, considering the beating Obama takes for not being close enough to Netanyahu!

one would hope that leaving our fellow citizens to die and not responding to their calls for aide is not met with a collective yawn, but I fear you are right

Except reinforcements were sent within hours. Whether they should have or could have done more before or during is a fair question, but the claim that the administration ignored them is obvious bullshit.

[TrackerNeil]

Gowdy promised the victims' families he would find out what happened, hopefully he can deliver.

I think you need to start putting the Fox News logo on your posts. I'm sure your failure to do so constitutes a breach of contract.

[Suttree]

one would hope that leaving our fellow citizens to die and not responding to their calls for aide is not met with a collective yawn, but I fear you are right

Christ you've made the cross over into absolute tinfoil territory. One would hope that the right yet again playing political games around this issue would be met with a collective yawn and that most certainly has been the case.

[Commodore]

Except reinforcements were sent within hours. Whether they should have or could have done more before or during is a fair question, but the claim that the administration ignored them is obvious bullshit.

The only help came from the guys in Tripoli, who did so without orders.

[Fez]

You know your party is fighting a losing fight when even Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum are for a minimum wage increase

Santorum's always been a bit of an economic populist, it's just usually hidden under the frothy waves of santorum that emanate from him.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The only help came from the guys in Tripoli, who did so without orders.

You're claiming that a US military response team commandeered a jet and flew it from Tripoli to Benghazi without having been ordered to do so? Do you have a credible source to back up this utterly bizarre claim?

[awesome possum]

The only help came from the guys in Tripoli, who did so without orders.

I was going to ask if you ever get tired of spouting baseless bullshit that has already been proven false, but the last several years show you obviously do not.

Snopes

FALSE: Requests issued by U.S. personnel for military back-up during the attacks were denied.

Brigadier General Robert Lovell

Mica pressed Lovell repeatedly, demanding to know whether the general thought forces could have and should have been able to reach the beleaguered outpost.

Lovell answered that they could have done so if the capabilities had been in place, and that there should have been a way for the military to respond. He emphasized that he was testifying because he wanted to make sure that in the future, such capabilities would be on hand. But he agreed adamantly with the Republican-led House Armed Services Committee, whose report concluded that the military did all it could do on that tragic night. "That's a fact," Lovell said.

Washington Post

Official accounts of Benghazi reported that around midnight a crew of seven security officials set out from Tripoli to Benghazi to support the embattled personnel. The report of the State Department’s Accountability Review Board (ARB) said that “Embassy Tripoli chartered a private airplane and deployed a seven-person security team, which included two U.S. military personnel, to Benghazi.”

Fox News’s tripartite exclusive put a different spin on things. Based on the account of its anonymous “special operator,” Fox News reporter Adam Housley alleged that this security crew was sort of going rogue

At this point you have to admit you're just trolling us, right? Because only a complete and utter simpleton would continuously regurgitate Fox News talking points long after they've been debunked.

[DanteGabriel]

And it would almost be touching that conservatives have apparently discovered a newfound concern for the well-being of our citizens overseas if it wasn't such an obvious ploy to try to smear Obama with something, anything, that they can use to impeach him.

Indeed, they seemed to have discovered their concern for our overseas citizens shortly after cutting funding for embassy security. I wonder why Trey Gowdy's concern-trolling hasn't made more of that issue?

[Seli]

I really don't get why people expect Obama to actually do something during something as minor as an attack on a single consulate. It seems a proper command structure deals with these things at a much lower level.

eta: apart from the looking for a stick to beat him of course.

[aceluby]

BENGHAZI!!!!!!

Sorry, that's all I got.

[Commodore]

You're claiming that a US military response team commandeered a jet and flew it from Tripoli to Benghazi without having been ordered to do so? Do you have a credible source to back up this utterly bizarre claim?

The team in Tripoli chartered/bribed/threatened a jet to take them to Benghazi without orders from State to do so, yes. It's not bizarre that a few ex-Seals in Tripoli decided to act on their own initiative to rescue some fellow Americans crying for help.

Also, the argument that assets couldn't have made it in time in help is ludicrous, given they had no idea what the duration of the attack would be.

[awesome possum]

The team in Tripoli chartered/bribed/threatened a jet to take them to Benghazi without orders from State to do so, yes. It's not bizarre, a few ex-Seals in Tripoli decided to act on their own initiative to rescue some fellow Americans crying for help.

Also, the argument that assets couldn't have made it in time in help is ludicrous, given they had no idea what the duration of the attack would be.

So just to be clear, you're disagreeing with the findings of the Republican-led House Armed Services Committee?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The team in Tripoli chartered/bribed/threatened a jet to take them to Benghazi without orders from State to do so, yes. It's not bizarre, a few ex-Seals in Tripoli decided to act on their own initiative to rescue some fellow Americans crying for help.

Also, the argument that assets couldn't have made it in time in help is ludicrous, given they had no idea what the duration of the attack would be.

So that's a "no" on providing a credible source?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Yes, the discussion of Bengazi is much more interesting than the prior historic discussions.

...

[awesome possum]

The discussion of Benghazi is incredibly boring... but still more interesting than the prior historic discussion. I say that as a former History major.

[Inigima]

I think lots of threads are boring, but I don't take them over to talk about something else.

Okay, I USUALLY don't do that. Like three times, tops.

[Glaurung]

part of the problem with communism is lack of incentive for workers to be more productive

this criticism has never made any sense. why would there not be a wage & benefit entitlement?

For a person to improve their productivity rather than doing just enough to not get thrown in prison or starve, you have to give them some kind of incentive that can improve their situation. Otherwise you are simply denying human nature...or animal nature. While most animals have some form of social initiative to help their group, ALL animals are at least partially motivated by self interest to improve their situation and that of their offspring. Humans are no different. In order to improve productivity and foster creativity(i.e. inventions, technological advancements, etc) you have to give an incentive for workers to give effort and you need incentive for the great minds to separate themselves from the rest. Full blown communism has always encountered this issue and always will(outside of maybe the military industry). Sir Thomas More's Utopia sounds great, but it's not reality. It's not possible, unless you change the very nature of humanity. The USSR tried to counter this with punishment, the equivalent of lighting a fire under somebody's ass, but this will only make a person put forth enough effort to not get burned.

As for my anecdote about the iron curtain, it wasn't just my friend's situation. The way he describes it, that was the norm. The way he tells it, if you had a defect like his the state was more likely to let nature take its course than waste resources on you unless your father was an officer or researcher. The every day life was a struggle for his family and everybody he knew.

[Commodore]

So just to be clear, you're disagreeing with the findings of the Republican-led House Armed Services Committee?

I'm disagreeing with the argument that our leaders did all they could. As Gen. Lovell himself testified:

“Many with firsthand knowledge have recounted the heroism displayed by the brave Americans in Benghazi that night. They fought the way they trained. That is in the record. Outside of Libya there were discussions that churned on about what we should do. These elements also fought the way they were trained. Specifically, the predisposition to interagency influence had the military structure—in the spirit of expeditionary government support—waiting for a request for assistance from the State Department. There are accounts of time, space and capability discussions of the question, could we have gotten there in time to make a difference. Well, the discussion is not in the “could or could not” in relation to time, space and capability—the point is we should have tried. As another saying goes: “Always move to the sound of the guns,” Lovell said. “It is with a sense of duty as a retired General officer that I respectfully submit these thoughts and perspectives.”

Lovell also confirmed again that the 9/11 Benghazi attack was not a result of a demonstration but instead was a well planned out assault and said the situation of holding back help made the military feel “desperate.”

“The military should have made a response of some sort,” he said.

Further, Lovell said people on the ground that night knew it was an attack from al Qaeda almost immediately.

“We didn’t know how long this would last when we became aware of the distress nor did we completely understand what we had in front of us, be it a kidnapping, rescue, recovery, protracted hostile engagement or any or all of the above,” Lovell said. “But what we did know quite early on was that this was a hostile action. This was no demonstration gone terribly awry.”

Stevens was left in Benghazi with inadequate security, and Hillary Clinton did nothing about it, despite repeated requests to do so.

Then when the attack occured, no help was ordered, only a team that took their own initiative to answer the distress call. Two of whom (Woods and Doherty) died for their efforts.

And when their bodies were returned and Clinton/Biden/Hillary/Rice/Obama met with the families, they told them it was a response to a Youtube video, knowing that wasn't true (here is Sean Smith's mother recounting how she was lied to).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Inigima,

I think lots of threads are boring, but I don't take them over to talk about something else.

Okay, I USUALLY don't do that. Like three times, tops.

That made me laugh so hard people are giving me funny looks.

:)