The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[Ser Maverick]

I just have a wait and see attitude towards it and I'm not even going to bother trying to predict. Rape seems unlikely to me because it's the first thing everyone thinks when they hear this, so I doubt George would hint at such a chapter. I also don't really see George going this direction tbh. Sansa killing Baelish at the start of tWoW seems equally unlikely to me since there's been no tension set up between them and it would just be an odd way to go in the story considering so many aspects of Littlefinger have yet to be revealed. I just think it will be something completely different.

[Watermelon Knight]

Ok You maybe want to consider the way you phrase things a bit better.

You said and I've quoted it above that YOU don't find the idea of Robert Arryn being sexually abused by Corbray controversial AT ALL. You then went on to say that you don't find Sansa killing Lf controversial and equated that the two options would be more likely to get applause than cause controversy.

You did not say you didn't think him being raped wouldn't be controversial amongst the ASOIAF readers, you said you personally wouldn't find it controversial. I'm not going to "whine" to the other person who suggested it happening as a possibility for the controversial chapter as they, as far as I recall did not say that they personally wouldn't view it as controversial. where as you did.

it is not about the inclusion of rape amongst the numerable heinous acts in the story, but rather the way that people discuss these things when discussing them on a forum. Hence the need for a pinned post by the admin asking people to remember to be respectful and considerate when discussing rape. Because saying you wouldn't find the rape of a child controversial and then in your next sentence saying you think most fans would be cheering does not convey a respectful attitude towards the subject matter under discussion. Nor does choosing to refer to the perp as a Dude and the victim as a brat.

As it seems from your reaction to being called out on this that you have merely chosen to word your feelings very poorly, might I suggest taking more time to carefully consider how your post might sound to others before hitting send, and then rather than blow your top at the person who has read your post and chosen to point out how it comes across maybe say Sorry that is not what I was trying to say. and then explain yourself.

Personally I feel that the sexual abuse of a child can not ever be uncontroversial, even in a book which has very realistically portrayed the reality of rape as a weapon of warfare and the fact it is a common occurrence in life.

It is a disturbing subject matter full stop. So I disagree I think lots of fans would find it really controversial.

Well you're in the minority because rape in Westeros is not controversial among the majority of readers. What creates controversy is the death of beloved characters like Eddard or Snow.

I believe you're conflating "controversial" with "moral". Just because I don't find something controversial does not mean I find it morally acceptable. In the case of rape, ANY rape in Westeros, I feel it is simply a part of the barbaric culture Martin has created and thus warrents no controversy. But make no mistake, it is still barbaric and evil.

You want to know what I personally find controversial? The poor editing and plot pacing in ADWD. The book was rushed to publication in an unfinished state because Martin was too craven to make the editing choices required to fit the final battles in the book - battles to which the entire novel was prelude. To me THAT is the true controversy. Rape, murder, torture - Martin deals with such evils in a deft and masterful way that leaves an astute reader fully aware of how wrong they are.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well you're in the minority because rape in Westeros is not controversial among the majority of readers. What creates controversy is the death of beloved characters like Eddard or Snow.

I believe you're conflating "controversial" with "moral". Just because I don't find something controversial does not mean I find it morally acceptable. In the case of rape, ANY rape in Westeros, I feel it is simply a part of the barbaric culture Martin has created and thus warrents no controversy. But make no mistake, it is still barbaric and evil.

You want to know what I personally find controversial? The poor editing and plot pacing in ADWD. The book was rushed to publication in an unfinished state because Martin was too craven to make the editing choices required to fit the final battles in the book - battles to which the entire novel was prelude. To me THAT is the true controversy. Rape, murder, torture - Martin deals with such evils in a deft and masterful way that leaves an astute reader fully aware of how wrong they are.

I don't think you read my post. Or if you did you have chosen to ignore the content and are making your own assumptions about my thoughts. And with respect I don't think that you are right. I have been here quite some time now and am on other forums and fan sites too. I have a reasonable grasp on what gets people up in arms and how a large portion of the fan base feel about certain aspects of the story. I've explained myself already. I don;t think I need to do so again.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

A lot of the speculations about the contents of this chapter are wildly over the top (Sansa will murder Robin and then get raped by Littlefinger, blah blah blah), but this suggestion is the exact opposite, a serious underbilling. Elio has repeatedly cited the Vale of Arryn as a place where interesting things will be happening in TWOW, a seeming callback to the earlier, seriously overplayed quote about "controversial" -- but I really doubt the interesting things he's discussing involve Sansa masturbating.

It's also iffy to bring the show into discussion, of course, but it sounds like there's a major development in Sansa's arc next season, and I expect it correlates broadly to her book material arc.

Thank you for being the voice of reason among all of this.

It's established that birds are the hardest type of animal to skinchange, even for an uber-warg like Varamyr. And those tapestries are a throwaway line showing how indifferent he is to the LD, that have for some reason become the centre of speculation about his master plan.

And yes, birds are uber hard to warg if we can believe the master Bloodraven giving Bran (who Martin says is the most advanced warg among the Stark kids) instruction on it.

[Faint]

I continue to find it amusing that Martin telling us on multiple occasions that he would never write a rape scene via one of his point-of-view characters has done nothing to dent the theory that Petyr Baelish will rape Sansa Stark in her point-of-view chapter.

[Taenqyrhae]

I believe you're conflating "controversial" with "moral". Just because I don't find something controversial does not mean I find it morally acceptable. In the case of rape, ANY rape in Westeros, I feel it is simply a part of the barbaric culture Martin has created and thus warrents no controversy. But make no mistake, it is still barbaric and evil.

This is why I favor the idea that Sansa may make a false rape claim. That is EXTREMELY controversial, especially among the MRAs who make a up a big portion of this genre's fanbase and who believe it happens all the time. It would be very controversial if Sansa made a false rape claim against a character who really deserved it, you'd have the conflict of revulsion at the idea of her doing that against the gratification that she got revenge against someone who deserved it.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I continue to find it amusing that Martin telling us on multiple occasions that he would never write a rape scene via one of his point-of-view characters has done nothing to dent the theory that Petyr Baelish will rape Sansa Stark in her point-of-view chapter.

I really don't think we have any indication that the relationship between LF and Sansa would lead to a rape, controversy or not.

[Newstar]

It's also iffy to bring the show into discussion, of course, but it sounds like there's a major development in Sansa's arc next season, and I expect it correlates broadly to her book material arc.

I agree that there seems to be some major development coming in Sansa's Season 5 arc, but it could just be a closed-loop filler storyline that doesn't interfere with whatever the TWOW material is. The maddening thing is that we'll have no way of knowing which of the two it is until and unless TWOW comes out.

[Faint]

The maddening thing is that we'll have no way of knowing which of the two it is until and unless TWOW comes out.

Not necessarily. If Robin dies, Sansa marries Harry Arryn and the Vale gathers for war, or any one of those things, I think it would be safe to assume that we are getting into material from The Winds of Winter.

I think you actually hit the point on the head. If the material looks like it is closed loop, then Benioff and Weiss are just stalling for time. If not, well, then you have your answer.

And, really, from what we have seen so far, it is not very hard to distinguish between the filler material and that drawn from the text.

[Mithras]

I continue to find it amusing that Martin telling us on multiple occasions that he would never write a rape scene via one of his point-of-view characters has done nothing to dent the theory that Petyr Baelish will rape Sansa Stark in her point-of-view chapter.

Do you know the SSM for that? I hear it a lot but could not find it yet.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Well all I have to say is that, if you are getting on the Tyrion/Sansa ship, be sure that you have a life raft and that you have passed your swim qualification.

The Good Ship Never.

I've tried to point out elsewhere, that even if she falls head over heels for him (not gonna happen btw) it's a shitstorm waiting to happen. That's looking at it from a realpolitik standpoint...House Lannister as a political entity has made far too many enemies, especially up North.

I'm another SanSan shipper who ships it because she wants it and it is where the story is headed, if GRRM takes a different turn I won't shed any tears. I'm a fan of Sansa getting who she wants and gaining agency in her life . And I think that is exactly where she is headed and that a large part of that is her recognising and acting upon her own desires.

:agree:

I subscribe to SanSan because that's what I see in the text, but as a fan, it's of secondary importance to me with her gaining a sense of agency at the very top of the list. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive though, GRRM has that in the story for good reason.

[Le Cygne]

I subscribe to SanSan because that's what I see in the text, but as a fan, it's of secondary importance to me with her gaining a sense of agency at the very top of the list. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive though, GRRM has that in the story for good reason.

Nicely put. I also think the Sandor-Lady connection is going to play out more, "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it," and nearly every time she wishes for Lady, he is there (even in her thoughts and dreams). The author has given them a bond that goes beyond sex, but that is clearly there as well. This is all very much tied to her identity.

[Mad Madam Mim]

This is why I favor the idea that Sansa may make a false rape claim. That is EXTREMELY controversial, especially among the MRAs who make a up a big portion of this genre's fanbase and who believe it happens all the time. It would be very controversial if Sansa made a false rape claim against a character who really deserved it, you'd have the conflict of revulsion at the idea of her doing that against the gratification that she got revenge against someone who deserved it.

Why on earth would Sansa do that? I see no logical reason. This is a society dominated by men where women are judged by their 'purity'. Sansa making a false rape claim would tarnish her reputation just as much as Littlefinger's in the eyes of Westeros. If she want to get her revenge against Littlefinger she dosn't need to make stuff up, she has plenty of dirt to dish on him.

[Harry the Hair]

On a parallel note; have any parts of the fandom found the Dany wank scene controversial?

[Taenqyrhae]

Why on earth would Sansa do that? I see no logical reason. This is a society dominated by men where women are judged by their 'purity'. Sansa making a false rape claim would tarnish her reputation just as much as Littlefinger's in the eyes of Westeros.

I don't see any textual evidence that Westerosi society treats rape victims (at least, noble-born rape victims) as bad as the rapists. Lollys is not disparaged for being raped or impure. Nobody seems to think any less of Lyanna Stark even though the official story was she was raped by Rhaegar. It might make Sansa a less eligible bride - and that might serve her purposes as well if she doesn't want to marry.

[Harry the Hair]

Lollys is not disparaged for being raped or impure.

You're kidding right? Is that why the only match her mother, the head of a wealthy household with several legitimate claims on other prosperous lands, could only find Bronn for her to marry? A sellsword from the Vale that even a peasant wouldn't marry?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On a parallel note; have any parts of the fandom found the Dany wank scene controversial?

The thing is that people view these two characters very differently. Dany is often derided for her sexuality and you will see people calling her a slapper and saying how grossed out they were by her wanting Daario. Dany though was already "soiled" by sex prior to her wank, because she had been "had" by drogo already. To understand why Sansa's potential sexual awakening is controversial you have to understand the sexual currency in which women are traded. Whilst a woman is "pure & innocent" people feel protective and possessive over her theoretical Hymen. But once that virginity is gone and the woman has shown herself to enjoy sex, take charge during sex, and express strong sexual desire, all bets are off and she is a slut. Especially when that woman then goes on to have sex outside of a marriage which she vociferously praises and enjoys.

I'm using quite evocative language, but really once you have hung out here for a yr or so and read numerous posts about Dany's sexual appetite and Sansa's innocence you will see it.

There is a chunk of the fandom who have placed Sansa's cherry on a pedestal. And they do not like it when anyone points out that Sansa's storyline has a sexual awakening element to it.

[Harry the Hair]

I'm using quite evocative language, but really once you have hung out here for a yr or so and read numerous posts about Dany's sexual appetite and Sansa's innocence you will see it.

There is a chunk of the fandom who have placed Sansa's cherry on a pedestal. And they do not like it when anyone points out that Sansa's storyline has a sexual awakening element to it.

I'm guessing you're referring to the Sansa is The Virgin Queen theorists? I suppose to them that might be controversial... though still I doubt Elio (not sure if that's his name, apologies if it's not) would comment on that since he'd have to be aware of that part of the fandom.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

not wholly the Sansa is the Virgin Queen people, more the Sansa is like my little sister/ my daughter I don't want to think of her ever ever having sex types.

[Mad Madam Mim]

I don't see any textual evidence that Westerosi society treats rape victims (at least, noble-born rape victims) as bad as the rapists. Lollys is not disparaged for being raped or impure. Nobody seems to think any less of Lyanna Stark even though the official story was she was raped by Rhaegar. It might make Sansa a less eligible bride - and that might serve her purposes as well if she doesn't want to marry.

Really? Is this sympathetic?

“She’s asleep. Sleep’s all she ever wants to do, the great cow. She sleeps and she eats. Sometimes she falls asleep while she’s eating. The food falls under the blankets and she rolls in it, and I have to clean her.” She made a disgusted face. “All they did was fuck her.”

And Shae is not the only one who speaks of Lollys with such derision. She is talked about and passed around like soiled goods, eventually sold like cattle to a sellsword who is the only one who will take her. Her treatment is appalling and Sansa witnesses a fair bit of this treatment and actually seems to be one of the few characters who displays sympathy towards Lollys. I in no way see Sansa making a mockery of Lolly's experience by making a false allegation for her own means. Again, I will reiterate that Sansa does not need to invent things about Littlefinger for revenge when the truth of Littlefinger's crimes is more than enough to serve that purpose.