The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[Pod The Impaler]

Why I think Sansa is becoming a cynic:

I would have thought you'd mention this:

"Ah, and what a castle [Harrenhal] is. Cavernous halls and ruined towers, ghosts and draughts, ruinous to heat, impossible to garrison . . . and there’s that small matter of a curse."

"Curses are only in songs and stories."

That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane ... Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it."

"Then give it to Lord Frey."

Both the Sansa lines come from a place of cynicism, I think.

Of all people, Sansa was the one who believed in songs and stories (likely that's why Petyr is amused).

Then her line about giving it to Lord Frey shows a certain malice - granted, she should feel animosity about Lord Frey, but rather than her thoughts going to some brave knight defeating him and bringing him to justice, we see her cynically joking about Frey being given a poisoned prize.

I hope Sansa eats Baelish's brain to gain his cunning and then bathe in the blood of her enemies all in one chapter then go back to normal like nothing happened.

Bam! ONE controversial Sansa chapter.

Well, she is 1/4 from the blood of Harrenhal.

[Makk]

Have you not encountered the Sansa fandom yet? Their canon is: (1) Sansa cannot and will not do wrong, EVER. (2) Ignore any statement or action that might indicate the opposite. (3) NO matter how clearly it is stated, if it is bad for Sansa, it is not real. Sometimes I think the Sansa fans, more than any bought special ASOIAF editions in which paragraphs stating things detrimental to their Sansa have been edited out.

haha, no I haven't encountered that yet. Being too much of a fan of any character in this series is a bit perilous. Your character is likely to do something you don't like (or die) at any moment. Better to just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[First of Her Name]

Rickon is definitely coming back. I have no doubts about that. I can't wait to see what has happened to him. I expect he is a savage terror.

Idea for Sansa: Tyrion returns with his Dragon Queen to be named Lord of Casterly Rock. LF threatens to send Sansa back to Tyrion to put himself back in the good graces of House Lannister, now that Tyrion is on the rise again (totally plausible LF move). Sansa doesn't want to go (no surprise there). In her desperation, she tries to seduce LF. LF takes her up on her offer, but sends her to Tyrion afterward anyway.

I feel like that would be controversial.

[Daenor]

Rickon is definitely coming back. I have no doubts about that. I can't wait to see what has happened to him. I expect he is a savage terror.

Idea for Sansa: Tyrion returns with his Dragon Queen to be named Lord of Casterly Rock. LF threatens to send Sansa back to Tyrion to put himself back in the good graces of House Lannister, now that Tyrion is on the rise again (totally plausible LF move). Sansa doesn't want to go (no surprise there). In her desperation, she tries to seduce LF. LF takes her up on her offer, but sends her to Tyrion afterward anyway.

I feel like that would be controversial.

Rickon is only 5 at the moment.I don't think we'll see many changes in him.Most probably he'll be a little bit unruly and aggressive since he's been spending those 2 years in the company of a wildling,a direwolf and maybe some cannibals,but that's it.He's a good candidate for surviving though in the end as the last of his family(well Bran could survive too but remaining forever at the cave) and that will be a bittersweet end :The Starks almost perishing while helping the world to be saved but at least their name won't vanish from history.

Sansa+controversy?Hmmmm,bye-bye SR,although i see that some people consider this as too predictable or lame.In any case even if SR isn't involved in this ,controversy means violence for me.Either in a direct manner on her behalf like stabbing someone or through manipulation.

[igrewupinKL]

Yeh but I thought the controversial part would be directly related to Sansa. His theory could definitely work though

[Woman of War]

Rickon is definitely coming back. I have no doubts about that. I can't wait to see what has happened to him. I expect he is a savage terror.

Idea for Sansa: Tyrion returns with his Dragon Queen to be named Lord of Casterly Rock. LF threatens to send Sansa back to Tyrion to put himself back in the good graces of House Lannister, now that Tyrion is on the rise again (totally plausible LF move). Sansa doesn't want to go (no surprise there). In her desperation, she tries to seduce LF. LF takes her up on her offer, but sends her to Tyrion afterward anyway.

I feel like that would be controversial.

Tyrion as "the Lannisters" by then???

LF could send Sansa to Tyrion as much as he wants, if Sansa does not want to stay with Tyrion she'd simply say goodbye and leave.

It would result in some horses and some guards for Sansa from Tyrion if she wishes to go elsewhere. Or do you seriously think Tyrion would look her up and chain her to the castle walls Ramsay style? If she wanted to leave she would be free to go ;)

[First of Her Name]

Tyrion as "the Lannisters" by then???

LF could send Sansa to Tyrion as much as he wants, if Sansa does not want to stay with Tyrion she'd simply say goodbye and leave.

It would result in some horses and some guards for Sansa from Tyrion if she wishes to go elsewhere. Or do you seriously think Tyrion would look her up and chain her to the castle walls Ramsay style? If she wanted to leave she would be free to go ;)

There basically aren't any Lannisters left. It's Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime. Jaime's disappeared and I think we all agree Cersei's prospects are not good. It won't take much for Tyrion to become "the Lannisters" ... when he returns with a Targaryen and her dragons, which should go a long way toward "clearing his name," especially once Cersei is dead and there's no lordship in it for anyone.

I don't think Sansa would leave. First, it's not in her character to do a damn thing for herself without being walked right into it. Second, it would be the stupidest thing anybody in the books has done so far, insomuch as she'd get herself kidnapped in about five minutes. Third, the issue isn't whether she has to specifically live with Tyrion, the issue is whether she has to stop being Alayne and go be "Sansa Lannister." And once they send her back, she'll be "Sansa Lannister" no matter where she goes, unless and until some Stark bannermen manage to rescue her.

[Uldra I]

In the Westeros worldview, the Starks and Arryns have only one commonly known living heir each by the end of ADwD. It appears that Rob Stark's will is MIA, so that would eliminate Jon Snow from inheriting Winterfell for now.

If SweetRobin died, then doesn't that mean that Sansa would be commonly believed to be heir to both Winterfell and the Eyrie? It is unknown yet whether Bryden Tully still lives, but who would stand in succession of Lysa/SR, SR's great uncle, or SR's cousin, or SR's stepfather?

LF already knows, but I'm not sure. Does anybody understand succession well enough to explain this? If the answer is what I think it might be, then I have a new idea to posit about the possible content for a controversial Sansa Chapter in TWoW.

[Lady Blue Rose]

In the Westeros worldview, the Starks and Arryns have only one commonly known living heir each by the end of ADwD. It appears that Rob Stark's will is MIA, so that would eliminate Jon Snow from inheriting Winterfell for now.

If SweetRobin died, then doesn't that mean that Sansa would be commonly believed to be heir to both Winterfell and the Eyrie? It is unknown yet whether Bryden Tully still lives, but who would stand in succession of Lysa/SR, SR's great uncle, or SR's cousin, or SR's stepfather?

LF already knows, but I'm not sure. Does anybody understand succession well enough to explain this? If the answer is what I think it might be, then I have a new idea to posit about the possible content for a controversial Sansa Chapter in TWoW.

In the last Sansa chapter, LF explains the Harry Hardyng- grandson to Jon Arryn's sister-is in line to inherit if SR dies (hence being called Harry the Heir). There are a bunch of Arryn descendants in the Vale, but even if there weren't, Sansa has no relation or connection to the Vale in any way- there are no circumstances under which she could inherit it. That is why LF "needs" her to marry Harry the Heir.

I think you are mixing up the Tullys of the Riverlands (SR and Sansa's family on the mothers' sides) with the Arryns of the Vale (SR's family from his Father's side).

Regarding Bryden Tully (of Riverlands and unrelated to the Arryns), he would not be lord of the Riverlands. After Hoster Tully passed (Cat's father), his son Edmure would inherit. He is currently wed to a Frey (Red Wedding) and will be kept there, at least, until he is no longer useful- has given an heir with a rightful claim to his Frey wife. That child would then be heir to the Riverlands.

[Lady Blue Rose]

Here is a link to a page with the Tully's family tree:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Tully

And now to the Arryn's:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Arryn

That might help clarify things for you, maybe? ;)

[Uldra I]

In the last Sansa chapter, LF explains the Harry Hardyng- grandson to Jon Arryn's sister-is in line to inherit if SR dies (hence being called Harry the Heir). There are a bunch of Arryn descendants in the Vale, but even if there weren't, Sansa has no relation or connection to the Vale in any way- there are no circumstances under which she could inherit it. That is why LF "needs" her to marry Harry the Heir.

I think you are mixing up the Tullys of the Riverlands (SR and Sansa's family on the mothers' sides) with the Arryns of the Vale (SR's family from his Father's side).

Regarding Bryden Tully (of Riverlands and unrelated to the Arryns), he would not be lord of the Riverlands. After Hoster Tully passed (Cat's father), his son Edmure would inherit. He is currently wed to a Frey (Red Wedding) and will be kept there, at least, until he is no longer useful- has given an heir with a rightful claim to his Frey wife. That child would then be heir to the Riverlands.

Yeah, you're right. I was think of inheritance through the mother's line, forgetting that the father even had living relatives.

Here is a link to a page with the Tully's family tree:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Tully

And now to the Arryn's:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Arryn

That might help clarify things for you, maybe? ;)

Thank you for answering my question. Blows my theory away, but that's better than posting it and have it blown away on the forum. :P

[Uldra I]

ok.. here is my revised theory about the shocking new chapter:

(I'm sure many with similar plots have posted in other threads... sorry if repetitive. This is copied from a post I made earlier today on another thread.)

LF has always been obsessed by Catelyn since they were children. He deeply resents having his advances spurned by her, which he always presumed was due to his low born status. Thus he had devoted his life to changing his status. He did. He became one of the most powerful players in TGOT. When Sansa first arrived in KL, LF mentioned how Sansa looks just like Cat did in her youth, only even more beautiful. On the night of Sansa's escape we learn that LF was responsible for King Joffrey's death to release her from marriage and get Tyrion out of the picture. Also, haven't seen anyone mention that LF framed Sansa by delivering the poison via jewelry he sent her to wear at the wedding. The show made it clear that he intended to frame her when he threw the necklace on Dontos' chest, instead of the water, and asked Sansa, [show] "Who do you think they will blame?... You." [books] Aboard the escape ship he tells her, "There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me... but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter?" (creepy, huh?) LF is staking his claim on Sansa, and starting to try and ingratiate her toward him for "saving" her, and now has the means to blackmail her into submission should she give him trouble. And yes, he is obsessed enough to do something irrational and ruin even his own plans.

An aside: One of my new favorite sayings is: " That is soooo Littlefinger!" Also, I love that Sansa is learning TGoT from him. She is going to be transformed. back to the point:

LF's motives become even more clear in the snow castle scene. The snow castle Sansa is building is Winterfell. When LF sees it, he asks Sansa if he may "come into her castle." As we know, the children's game "May I Come Into Your Castle" was often mentioned in adult conversation as a metaphor for sex as was explained in the books. LF literally does go into the castle and help Sansa build it, and then forces an unwanted kiss on Sansa. He will later extort more kisses from her, even going so far as to try and get her to sit in his lap. (creepy, huh? Sansa is only 13/14)

Robert Arryn comes out with his doll to play. Sansa tells him not to go into the castle because he is ruining it. SweetRobin demands to come into her castle and demands she open her gates. Sansa refuses and SweetRobin reacts, ' "Tromp, tromp. I'm a giant, I'm a giant," he chanted. "Ho ho ho, open your gates or I'll mash them and smash them." In the adult metaphor of the child's game, (need I say it?) 'opening the gates' refers to a woman opening her legs for penetration. Then SR starts wrecking Sansa's castle with his doll-giant, smashing and bashing, is an overt metaphor for rape. Sansa grabs hold of the doll by the head to stop the destruction, and the "giant's" head rips off. SR then screams hysterically at Sansa for killing the doll-giant.

LF's ancestral sigil is the Titan, a huge stone giant that gaurds Braavos. LF continues to ingratiate Sansa with his plot to marry her to Harry the Heir in order to make her Lady of the Eyrie and the Vale as well as to gain the forces necessary to take Winterfell back. LF tells Sansa, "So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?" (again, creepy)

My predictions are: SR will die by sweet sleep poisoning. LF will deliver Winterfell to Sansa with her marriage to Harrys the Heir, and then taking the needed provisions and military strength to bolster Stannis' forces. He will help her rebuild Winterfell, just as he did with the snow castle. He will become the giant (Titan) who helps "the Stark" build Winterfell, just as the giants helped Brandon the builder.

Now, here is why I think LF will die in Winterfell at Sansa's hands. Sansa will realize someday how much power she truly has. LF at some point will try to "enter the castle of the snow maiden by bashing her gates in", and Sansa will either kill him, or have him killed. I believe it will be by decapitation like SR's doll.

[Pod The Impaler]

LF will deliver Winterfell to Sansa with her marriage to Harrys the Heir, and then taking the needed provisions and military strength to bolster Stannis' forces. He will help her rebuild Winterfell, just as he did with the snow castle. He will become the giant (Titan) who helps "the Stark" build Winterfell, just as the giants helped Brandon the builder.

Now, here is why I think LF will die in Winterfell at Sansa's hands. Sansa will realize someday how much power she truly has. LF at some point will try to "enter the castle of the snow maiden by bashing her gates in", and Sansa will either kill him, or have him killed. I believe it will be by decapitation like SR's doll.

Many have speculated on the latter part, but I think this is the first time that I have heard the idea of LF being the "giant" helping (re-)build Winterfell.

[Lady Blue Rose]

My predictions are: SR will die by sweet sleep poisoning. LF will deliver Winterfell to Sansa with her marriage to Harrys the Heir, and then taking the needed provisions and military strength to bolster Stannis' forces. He will help her rebuild Winterfell, just as he did with the snow castle. He will become the giant (Titan) who helps "the Stark" build Winterfell, just as the giants helped Brandon the builder.

Now, here is why I think LF will die in Winterfell at Sansa's hands. Sansa will realize someday how much power she truly has. LF at some point will try to "enter the castle of the snow maiden by bashing her gates in", and Sansa will either kill him, or have him killed. I believe it will be by decapitation like SR's doll.

Many have speculated on the latter part, but I think this is the first time that I have heard the idea of LF being the "giant" helping (re-)build Winterfell.

I don't see how the ever scheming LF would allow for Sansa to gain so much power without having clear leverage that will allow him to have the upper hand. He does nothing out of the goodness of his heart.

[Modesty Lannister]

post 112

At this point, it's just fan fiction. Do not forget the last Sansa chapter, which is very controversial indeed, because she gives more than one sign she is working with Petyr Baelish while she distrusts LF. This was already discussed on this thread. Also, we don't know a very important thing and that is how closely LF works with the IBoB and whether the bank's envoy's appearance at the Wall and in Stannis' camp has anything to do with LF. He does mean to give Sansa (and himself) not only WInterfell, but probably all 7 kingdoms provided Sansa shows to be what Catelyn never was. The question is will Sansa play along? So, far she has played along nicely. And that is already very controversial. I guess we can debate this to death, but in order to kill LF, Sansa has to have a motive, which she does not seem to have at the moment (it does not matter what readers think. What matters is what she thinks in the books). Also, I don't believe anyone needs to kill Sweetrobin per se. He is too weak to survive the winter anyway and LF is a patient man. Furthermore, you are mixing the two "giants" from the prophecy. The maiden from the prophecy slays either LF (the titan of Braavos) or SR (I am a giant) or Tyrion (the giant of Lannister). And what does slay mean in this context? Prophecies are tricky, as GRRM showed repeatedly.

[Uldra I]

Apologies, but the quote function doesn't seem to be working for me this morning. Hope the posters of these remarks will see you've been quoted.

Lady Blue Rose said:

I don't see how the ever scheming LF would allow for Sansa to gain so much power without having clear leverage that will allow him to have the upper hand. He does nothing out of the goodness of his heart.

LF does have the upperhand. He framed Sansa with the necklace/hairnet for Joffrey's murder. All he has to do is threaten to turn her over to KL if she doesn't cooperate.

Modesty Lannister said:

At this point, it's just fan fiction. Do not forget the last Sansa chapter, which is very controversial indeed, because she gives more than one sign she is working with Petyr Baelish while she distrusts LF. This was already discussed on this thread. Also, we don't know a very important thing and that is how closely LF works with the IBoB and whether the bank's envoy's appearance at the Wall and in Stannis' camp has anything to do with LF. He does mean to give Sansa (and himself) not only WInterfell, but probably all 7 kingdoms provided Sansa shows to be what Catelyn never was. The question is will Sansa play along? So, far she has played along nicely. And that is already very controversial. I guess we can debate this to death, but in order to kill LF, Sansa has to have a motive, which she does not seem to have at the moment (it does not matter what readers think. What matters is what she thinks in the books). Also, I don't believe anyone needs to kill Sweetrobin per se. He is too weak to survive the winter anyway and LF is a patient man. Furthermore, you are mixing the two "giants" from the prophecy. The maiden from the prophecy slays either LF (the titan of Braavos) or SR (I am a giant) or Tyrion (the giant of Lannister). And what does slay mean in this context? Prophecies are tricky, as GRRM showed repeatedly.

Sansa's escape from KL is a turning point for her character. Because of her naivety, she has be shocked and surprised over and over again at what deceit and malice people will stoop to. When Dontos delivers her to LF, she simply believes she is being rescued and taken home. She hasn't figured out that she is actually LF's captive. I don't think most readers and TV viewers have completely figured it out either. But most of us definitely wonder what he is up to. In any case, Sansa has to play along for now and has started learning TGoT.

SweetRobin has to die before Harrys the Heir can inherit the Eyrie. SR doesn't necessarily have to die from the sweet sleep, it could be natural causes. I will also predict they won't be able to tell whether it was poison or natural causes anyway, since he will probably die in his sleep or during a seizure.

OP did an excellent job discussing the giants that helped Brandon the Builder raise Winterfell, and The Wall. I didn't take that for any sort of foreshadowing, I only brought it up because of the amazing parallels. If LF, "the Titan of Braavos", helps Sansa win back Winterfell and then rebuild it (as he helped her build her snow castle), the similarities between the two stories are striking. Not necessary to my prediction however.

Last and most important: IMO the snow castle absolutely is foreshadowing of the most obvious and in-your-face kind. For that reason, I take it quite literally. GRRM has spent a lot of space in the books giving us all the background detail and symbolism we need to puzzle it out. If these ideas are just "fanfic" then you can come back later and have me eat my words. :D

ETA: Sansa doesn't have a motive for killing LF yet. I tried to explain in my post how that motive will come about later. Can't explain it any better now than I did last time, so I invite you to read that part again if you are curious as to my reasoning on that point.

[OnlyOne]

Sansa must get smart sooner or later and killing LF would be a good start on that arc. Sansa will kill the giant. I cannot wait.

[Modesty Lannister]

IMO the snow castle absolutely is foreshadowing of the most obvious and in-your-face kind. For that reason, I take it quite literally. GRRM has spent a lot of space in the books giving us all the background detail and symbolism we need to puzzle it out. If these ideas are just "fanfic" then you can come back later and have me eat my words. :D

I agree with you on this. Many fans of Sansa's character tend to idealise the girl. They want her to kill LF and that is all they wish to see in every line in the books. I do not see it coming, at least not yet. The castle scene is showing LF helping Sansa build Winterfell at dawn. And it is a dawn of a new relationship between them - the relationship we see in the last Sansa chapter of book 5, which I already find controversial. That's why I said we should look closely at what the IBoB has been doing in the north. I bet LF is setting the scene for Sansa's return there by financing Stannis against the Boltons. In the latest iv for Thronecast Aiden Gillen said that LF's plans are so longterm they spread over generations. He also hinted LF's feelings are his weak point and will be in the future. Why would (at least at this point) Sansa murder the only person who is offering her something substantial and has power to deliver on his promise? There is no motive for her to do so. And in the last ADWD Sansa chapter we see that she talks about "plans her and her father made" and worries more about SR's appearance of health than his actual health etc. So, I do not see any way for her to slay the giant before she actually reaches the true Winterfell, which can be happen in book 7 and not before. LF has to provide her with a motive in the meantime.

[Uldra I]

... In the latest iv for Thronecast Aiden Gillen said that LF's plans are so longterm they spread over generations. He also hinted LF's feelings are his weak point and will be in the future. Why would (at least at this point) Sansa murder the only person who is offering her something substantial and has power to deliver on his promise? There is no motive for her to do so. And in the last ADWD Sansa chapter we see that she talks about "plans her and her father made" and worries more about SR's appearance of health than his actual health etc. So, I do not see any way for her to slay the giant before she actually reaches the true Winterfell, which can be happen in book 7 and not before. LF has to provide her with a motive in the meantime.

I think we actually agree that LF's death won't be anytime too soon :cheers:

I still think LF will eventually let his obsession with Cat get the better of him and he will force himself on Sansa. By that time, Sansa will have enough strength internally and probably externally to have his head.

Don't really know about IB. LF certainly had a lot of dealings with them when he was Master of Coin for the King, and his family is originally from Braavos,... but that doesn't necessarily mean that LF has any influence over IB now. Haven't spent a lot of time thinking about the IB, but that is my first impression for what it's worth.

ps. Sansa has been one of my least liked characters so far, but just like so many other characters, I suspect a redemption of my esteem for her in the future.

[Modesty Lannister]

I think we actually agree that LF's death won't be anytime too soon :cheers:

I still think LF will eventually let his obsession with Cat get the better of him and he will force himself on Sansa. By that time, Sansa will have enough strength internally and probably externally to have his head.

Don't really know about IB. LF certainly had a lot of dealings with them when he was Master of Coin for the King, and his family is originally from Braavos,... but that doesn't necessarily mean that LF has any influence over IB now. Haven't spent a lot of time thinking about the IB, but that is my first impression for what it's worth.

ps. Sansa has been one of my least liked characters so far, but just like so many other characters, I suspect a redemption of my esteem for her in the future.

I forgot to say that Aiden Gillen actually downplayed LF's "obsession" with Cat. He also said Sansa and LF developed a bond of trust. And he should know. He is playing LF.

Here is the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwSD1erxrWQ

At the moment, I see Sansa of LF's apt pupil and an increasing confidant.