The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[Kyll.Ing.]

Hm. The fact that they simply "fast-forwarded" Sansa's arc and not the others, might mean that she won't interact with the rest of the storyline any more (otherwise the timeline would be all jumbled up). This might mean that Sansa's and Littlefinger's arcs will be concluded in TWOW. I can't see that ending very well for any of them.

[Neumond]

I always thought Arya´s Storyline being speed up is a very bad sign. So I didn´t thought about the possible implications of forwarding Sansa´s story in the show.

But there are other possibilities too. Like her having some filler arc in the show. Or her having more to do in the upcoming books... But yeah you could be right.

[Mithras]

Haven't watched the show yet but I think there are a lot of Sansa material ready from WoW. I don't think GRRM wrote nothing about Sansa since AFfC. In fact, 1 POV of Sansa was already confirmed to be ready. If the show will go faster with Sansa, I hope we get some gift chapters from her before too much is spoiled by the show.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

Hm. The fact that they simply "fast-forwarded" Sansa's arc and not the others, might mean that she won't interact with the rest of the storyline any more (otherwise the timeline would be all jumbled up). This might mean that Sansa's and Littlefinger's arcs will be concluded in TWOW. I can't see that ending very well for any of them.

Or it could be that she has some very juicy and a LARGE amount of content in TWoW and ADoS that D&D felt the need to start her "storyline" early instead of cramping it when she catches up with Jon/Dany/Tyrion etc. With that said, i am sure Sansa will be one of the ones to survive.

[ground_control]

Episode 8 (last night's show) was disturbing. I was actually disappointed that she didn't seduce Petyr (to be honest, S4 E8 is a bit early, but the scene where Petyr asks her why she helped was the perfect set up for it). But show Sansa is played by an adult (who does look like an adult), so it doesn't have the creep factor associated with the books.

In general (book or show), I don't want Sansa to get raped or even be shown as "just going along with it", I want to see her actively manipulating Littlefinger -- I want his grave stone to read "Player got played".

[Winter.Is.Coming]

Because House Baelish's sigil is Titan of Braavos, and in one Bran's chapters in AGOT, he saw a shadow of a giant behind his father and his sisters. Given that Baelish betrayed Ned and is interested in Sansa, many assume he is the giant Sansa will slay.

This^.

[BlueDragon]

Isn't it more likely that the controversy surrounds what Sansa decides to do, not what others do?

I didn't read the whole thread, only the premise at the top. Sansa is going to be a player, last night's episode made that really clear. (Sorry if this is a spoiler although I don't see how it can be.)

I think the show is going to start revealing tons next season and has already started dribbling out things from the next book.

Most of the Starks are going to survive. This is the one huge irony which makes everything work in this universe. No matter how many of Ayra's relatives she thinks are dead, many are coming out of the woodwork in the future. Possibilities:

2 uncles

both Bran and Rickon

Sansa

Jon

I hope she never meets up with Lady Stoneheart as that will really, really destroy the poor girl even if she asks Beric and Thoros if they could bring back her father. Stoneheart will really mess up that already messed up little girl.

[Vvornth]

Why is it that because the chapter is said to be controversial everyone are assuming that it equals rape?

That seems terribly unimaginative and lazy. I suspect GRRM has another plan than something so cheap.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Having watched the latest episode (and WOW! Amazing, well done, huzzah to Sophie Turner, who is gorgeous!), I surmise that the "controversy" is that Sansa is not going to throw Littlefinger under the bus, or the wheelhouse, with the Lords Declarant, any time soon. She'll reveal her identity to the Vale lords but she'll give a song and dance about how Littlefinger was her friend and saved her life, and use her pull as Sansa Stark, Ned's daughter, to keep LF around and in a position of power.

I'm relieved to note that it doesn't look like Sansa is going to off Sweetrobin (yet, anyway). He's an annoying brat, but doesn't deserve to die, and even Roose Bolton balks at kinslaying, and if Roose doesn't want to do something, you know it's taboo.

And the episode also reminded me of how well Bronze Yohn Royce, at least, knew the Stark family. Ned was brought up in the Vale. BY and Ned probably socialized a lot. He visited Winterfell while escorting Waymar to the Wall. Sansa looks like Catelyn and, by extension, Lysa, not just in the hair, but the face and eyes. Horton Redfort, another Lord Declarant, fostered Domeric Bolton. And, (spoiler for Stark family tree)

Starks and Royces intermarried more than once.

And while Mya Stone is no Lord Declarant, she got to know Catelyn and see exactly what she looked like when escorting her to the Eyrie. Sansa has the same eyes, facial structure, and build. And if Mya is still seeing Mychel Redfort on the side...BY and Horton (and Mychel?) Redfort are probably going to guess what's up with "Alayne" before very long, if they haven't already.

So I can see the controversy, if the latest show episode is a spoiler for TWOW: Sansa lies through her teeth to the Lords Declarant to save Littlefinger's bacon, instead of denouncing him. Which I think fills the bill of "controversial to some corners of the fandom."

[ground_control]

Why is it that because the chapter is said to be controversial everyone are assuming that it equals rape?

That seems terribly unimaginative and lazy. I suspect GRRM has another plan than something so cheap.

Why don't you read this entire thread and get back to us when you are caught up?

[Faint]

Whereas a lot of readers seem to think the controversial chapter involves rape, my assumption, when I read the article, was that Sansa would willingly fuck Littlefinger (albeit, to manipulate him, but a consensual encounter nonetheless).

[bent branch]

But, we know who poisoned Joffrey. What is your theory based on and how would that further Sansa's arc? Are you suggesting a double poisoning? I'm not following this.

Sorry for my long delay in answering. I was trying to write up something offline, but that is taking too long so I'll just give the bullet points. I am not suggesting a double poisoning. I think the only three people involved in the plot to poison Joffrey were LF, Dontos and Sansa, with Sansa being the one to actually put the poison in the chalice.

1. Sansa is given the hair net months before the Tyrells arrive in KL. We know from what LF says about what happened at Highgarden while he was there that Olenna didn't enter the plot to poison Joffrey at that point. This means Olenna would have entered the plot to poison Joffrey after arriving in KL. How would that have worked? Did Olenna approach LF about helping her to kill Joffrey? Did LF approach Olenna about joining his plot to poison Joffrey? Why would either of them feel safe in approaching the other about plotting treason? To my mind, this problem is so difficult that I doubt they were plotting together.

2. When Olenna asks Sansa to marry Willas, Sansa backs out of her part in the plot to poison Joffrey. imo, this makes the two plans incompatible. While there could be all sorts of arguments made on how these two plans could be made compatible, in the books they are not compatible.

Why we should be suspicious of what Sansa thinks about the poisoning:

3. Sansa is adamant that Tyrion is innocent of poisoning Joffrey. How can Sansa be so certain if she doesn't know who poisoned Joffrey? Sansa is willing to contemplate the idea that someone she is unaware of is involved in the poisoning, but she is certain it isn't Tyrion. Why?

4. While thinking about who put the poison in the wine, Sansa doesn't think about how the amythest got from her hair net into the poisoner's hand. The only thought Sansa has about this issue is that maybe grumkins did it (even she rejects that idea). This is the single most important fact to figuring out who poisoned Joffrey and Sansa doesn't even spend any time thinking about it. Either she is as stupid as people in KL thinks she is (and I don't think she is) or she is avoiding thinking about this issue. She doesn't think on this issue until LF asks her the question. Very suspicious.

5. Sansa is the only person besides Cersei who immediately thinks Joffrey was poisoned. At the point she ran from the banquet, people were still assuming Joffrey was choking on the pie. Sansa, however, was not only certain that Joffrey was poisoned, but that it was with an amythest from her hair net in his wine. Sansa knows exactly how it went down. It was this that made me start suspecting that Sansa was the one who put the poison in the wine. I am re-reading all the POVs straight through that I hadn't read before (on Dany now). When I first read this while re-reading Sansa, I assumed that I had somehow missed a chapter. There is nothing in Sansa's preceding chapters to explain why she would come to this conclusion. I went back and re-read Sansa again making sure I didn't miss any chapters and sure enough there is nothing in Sansa's preceding chapters to justify Sansa coming to this conclusion. What this means is that Sansa is privy to some information that we don't have. This means the plan with hair net is more complicated than we know at this point.

Why Tyrion's description of the PW should make us suspect Sansa:

6. The poison is put into the cup between the time Joffrey puts it on the table to go cut the pie and the time Joffrey spoke to Tyrion telling him he couldn't leave. Because of the seating arrangement, if either Garlan or Leonette had leaned over to put the amethyst into the chalice they would have passed into Tyrion's field of vision. Neither one of them does. This means no Tyrell put the amethyst in the wine. While I am confident that no Tyrell put the amethyst in the wine, I can't effectively demonstrate this one without diagrams.

What has made me positive that it was Sansa who poisoned Joffrey:

7. This interview with GRRM in Rolling Stone magazine (the relevent part is on page 3, but I've also quoted it below):

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

Yes.

Who kills Joffrey?

That killing happens early in this fourth season. The books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey.

In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

Why does GRRM hint that there is something more to the poisoning of Joffrey if a conspiracy between Olenna and LF is the big reveal? Nah, I think there is more to be revealed here. And as I explained, I think it will be revealed that Sansa is the one who poisoned Joffrey.

Well, my short answer has turned out to be pretty long. Sorry about that.

Edited to fix a formatting issue.

[espresso]

Bent branch: everything you say is fine, except iirc Sansa did wonder if Tyrion could have done it. In the show, Sansa is sure that Tyrion did not, but in the books, she think they will accuse her primarily because she is married to him, not because she is running away. Of course, all her actions at the wedding does point to something fishy, only we assumed she was tense because she was going to run away. She didn't pay attention to any singers, or the jousting dwarves, or the food. And she seems to be very instinctively direct her thoughts to her hairnet.

[jons nissa]

So I can see the controversy, if the latest show episode is a spoiler for TWOW: Sansa lies through her teeth to the Lords Declarant to save Littlefinger's bacon, instead of denouncing him. Which I think fills the bill of "controversial to some corners of the fandom."

exactly. she'll protect him and it will probably be for something dubious and thereby, willingly align herself with him. lots of people have speculated the controversy would involve siding with him in some dark plan. she may also begin flirting with him (or harry) since there is so much talk about sex between her and the ladies of the vale in adwd. she may begin to realize the power she has over him because of his attraction to her. that would definitely ruffle the feathers of a few fans.

[Danelle]

So I can see the controversy, if the latest show episode is a spoiler for TWOW: Sansa lies through her teeth to the Lords Declarant to save Littlefinger's bacon, instead of denouncing him. Which I think fills the bill of "controversial to some corners of the fandom."

I agree.

Most likely Sansa might be given a chance to accuse LF or stop him from fullfiling his plans but she will declare her support instead.

[Mithras]

I don't think Sansa and LF will work together. Stannis will win the Battle on Ice and Rickon will soon be revealed and installed in Winterfell after the Boltons are dealt with. The North will declare for Stannis. Sansa will want to return to Winterfell to take care of her baby brother but LF cannot just send her. Stannis and LF can never come to common grounds for a million of reasons. Rickon's presence also cuts the inheritance of Sansa in every possible way. This will be the turning point between LF and Sansa.

[Neumond]

I actually think, LF sees Sansa and especially the "posession" of Sansa as his own victory over the Starks. (He is a narcissist and his behaviour after he lost to Brandon fits the bill of a narcissistic injury...)

He destroyed the Tullys (they didn´t saw that he was so great he didn´t even need to be from a proper family to marry Cat (in his mind)); He destroyed the Starks (they took what was his (again Cat)) and now he got back at them all. He took Cat 2.0 from them and is able to make her mirroring himself. He wants her to be his audience and his trophy and he wants to model her after himself.

So he makes her less morally, less honest, less of everything that reminds him of Brandon, Eddard and the Tullys. And he won´t care about Rickon. He didn´t care about Jon Arryn right? Or about Eddard Stark or the Lannisters... And see where it got him: He is now Lord of Harrenhall in his own right and Lord of the Vale.

Getting Winterfell for Sansa is in the end just a way to glorify himself. Because she is his now, so everything she gets is his, too. You don´t think he will care about Stannis Baratheon or Roose Bolton or Rickon Stark, do you?

Well that being said: It of course doesn´t mean he will succeed with his grandios plans...

But I can see Sansa siding with him somewhere on this road... Perhaps she will even rationalise it: She just does what is best for her family. (She has been shown to be very delusional at times.)

A little boy like Rickon can´t possibly be the head of the eight-thousand year old Stark-family. Right?

So yes: I think Sansa and LF will work together. Not forever, but they will for a time...

[Vvornth]

Why don't you read this entire thread and get back to us when you are caught up?

Your attempts at omniscience fails spectacularly. Feel free to reply with an actual argument, but spare me your pomposity. You've been to long on the forums when you think you can get away acting with that attitude.

[ground_control]

Your attempts at omniscience fails spectacularly. Feel free to reply with an actual argument, but spare me your pomposity. You've been to long on the forums when you think you can get away acting with that attitude.

Reading for context <> attempted omniscience

You haven't been on forums long enough if you think you can just jump into a thread without reading the previous two hundred posts and ask for a summary of what's going on and make a statement about what you think of the topic and expect people to actually tell you anything besides "bugger off".

The "question" you asked was asked and answered multiple times in this thread already -- if you don't like the answers, pick one and reply to it, don't ask people to restate positions they have already written.

[Uldra I]

I actually think, LF sees Sansa and especially the "posession" of Sansa as his own victory over the Starks. (He is a narcissist and his behaviour after he lost to Brandon fits the bill of a narcissistic injury...)

He destroyed the Tullys (they didn´t saw that he was so great he didn´t even need to be from a proper family to marry Cat (in his mind)); He destroyed the Starks (they took what was his (again Cat)) and now he got back at them all. He took Cat 2.0 from them and is able to make her mirroring himself. He wants her to be his audience and his trophy and he wants to model her after himself.

So he makes her less morally, less honest, less of everything that reminds him of Brandon, Eddard and the Tullys. And he won´t care about Rickon. He didn´t care about Jon Arryn right? Or about Eddard Stark or the Lannisters... And see where it got him: He is now Lord of Harrenhall in his own right and Lord of the Vale.

Getting Winterfell for Sansa is in the end just a way to glorify himself. Because she is his now, so everything she gets is his, too. You don´t think he will care about Stannis Baratheon or Roose Bolton or Rickon Stark, do you?

Well that being said: It of course doesn´t mean he will succeed with his grandios plans...

But I can see Sansa siding with him somewhere on this road... Perhaps she will even rationalise it: She just does what is best for her family. (She has been shown to be very delusional at times.)

A little boy like Rickon can´t possibly be the head of the eight-thousand year old Stark-family. Right?

So yes: I think Sansa and LF will work together. Not forever, but they will for a time...

I agree. Sansa doesn't stand a chance on her own, and she knows it. By the same token, she also laid the groundwork for having control of her destiny by letting Petyr know that she is a player now, and in the show she did it in grand style! I don't think she'll go along with Petyr if it seems too wrong to her... At least I hope not. As of episode 8 she does have the possibility of regaining Winterfell without his help, but she still has learning to do.