The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[Woman of War]

No need to explain. The text is clear. That one is Alayne talking in the quote.

And where is Sansa when Alayne talks? In hiding?

I guess in the end Martin will send Alayne through the moon door while Sansa walks away ;)

Edited: Sansa will warg into a bird while both are on their way down and Alayne will be mush. Seriously?

[GinesthoiOfIce]

There is a clear distinction between Sansa's interests and Alayne's for the moment : Sansa would probably benefit from Sweetrobin's survival and would surely want to keep one of her last remaining relatives alive whereas Alayne (as a persona created by Littlefinger himself) might be expected to benefit from Sweetrobin's death and Harry the Heir's ascension (per Littlefinger's scheme). To put it perhaps more figuratively and clearly at the same time : Littlefinger is the tailor, he made a gown for Sansa to wear, question is : Will Sansa wear it the way Littlefinger intended and expected it to be worn or will Sansa appropriate it herself, make a few alterations or toss it away ? Sansa, for the moment is Alayne and has been playing her as Littlefinger wanted (the "dutiful daughter"), but this controversial chapter might be Sansa making Alayne different, to Littlefinger's dismay.

Anyhow, I quite like the idea that the controversial chapter would be about new pieces of information about Ned being brought to light. Time to debunk the myth of "Saint" Ned.

[Daenor]

There is a clear distinction between Sansa's interests and Alayne's for the moment : Sansa would probably benefit from Sweetrobin's survival and would surely want to keep one of her last remaining relatives alive whereas Alayne (as a persona created by Littlefinger himself) might be expected to benefit from Sweetrobin's death and Harry the Heir's ascension (per Littlefinger's scheme). To put it perhaps more figuratively and clearly at the same time : Littlefinger is the tailor, he made a gown for Sansa to wear, question is : Will Sansa wear it the way Littlefinger intended and expected it to be worn or will Sansa appropriate it herself, make a few alterations or toss it away ? Sansa, for the moment is Alayne and has been playing her as Littlefinger wanted (the "dutiful daughter"), but this controversial chapter might be Sansa making Alayne different, to Littlefinger's dismay.

Anyhow, I quite like the idea that the controversial chapter would be about new pieces of information about Ned being brought to light. Time to debunk the myth of "Saint" Ned.

Generally i agree but why involve Ned anyway?No one said he was a saint anyway.He simply had his conduct of honor,which is just fine for a fantasy world.But compared with the real world this kind of honor is not exactly "saintly". I mean imagine nowadays some leader chopping off heads because someone deserted his post in the army.We wouldn't exactly glorify him for that,especially if we consider it was a time of peace.

In any case i think what you describe is the general idea about Sansa's controversial chapter and we're only left to see the details.

[Newstar]

Well, we got an account of Brandon in ADWD that was a pretty unflattering take, although to be fair it wasn't exactly shockingly inconsistent with what we knew of him. We could receive similarly unflattering anecdotes as to Ned from someone who knew him when he was living in the Vale.

[maidenandwarrior]

Well, we got an account of Brandon in ADWD that was a pretty unflattering take, although to be fair it wasn't exactly shockingly inconsistent with what we knew of him. We could receive similarly unflattering anecdotes as to Ned from someone who knew him when he was living in the Vale.

I agree. Not to mention that Ned's best friend growing up was Robert Baratheon.

There were plenty of other young men in the Vale at the time: Elbert Arryn, Denys Arryn, Kyle Royce, maybe Bronze Yohn or Lord Nestor depending on their ages. Lady Waynwood is said to have grandchildren; there might be a large gap filled with daughters between her oldest son and Ser Donnel, so Morton Waynwood might have been the right age too.

And yet Ned's bestie was Robert.

Seriously, let's all think about that.

[Daenor]

I agree. Not to mention that Ned's best friend growing up was Robert Baratheon.

There were plenty of other young men in the Vale at the time: Elbert Arryn, Denys Arryn, Kyle Royce, maybe Bronze Yohn or Lord Nestor depending on their ages. Lady Waynwood is said to have grandchildren; there might be a large gap filled with daughters between her oldest son and Ser Donnel, so Morton Waynwood might have been the right age too.

And yet Ned's bestie was Robert.

Seriously, let's all think about that.

People don't have to be of the same mind in every aspect in order to be best friends.

But i have to say the image of young sex driven Ned and Robert, running around in the Vale and acting like heroes out of an American teen movie would have been quite hilarious.

[Modesty Lannister]

Anyhow, I quite like the idea that the controversial chapter would be about new pieces of information about Ned being brought to light. Time to debunk the myth of "Saint" Ned.

I think that would be awesome. I'd like to know more about who Ned was to marry (everybody else had an arranged marriage we know of, but Ned) and what happened there.

[Newstar]

People don't have to be of the same mind in every aspect in order to be best friends.

But i have to say the image of young sex driven Ned and Robert, running around in the Vale and acting like heroes out of an American teen movie would have been quite hilarious.

American Pie: Westeros edition.

[maidenandwarrior]

I think that would be awesome. I'd like to know more about who Ned was to marry (everybody else had an arranged marriage we know of, but Ned) and what happened there.

Maybe one of the Waynwood girls? If we rule out Ashara Dayne, then Ned was probably going to marry someone from the Vale. That big exposition dump in Sansa's last chapter in AFFC about the order of inheritance for the Vale might have some significance beyond just introducing Harry the Heir.

Personally, I would love to find out about Ned's goings on in a Sansa chapter, and I wouldn't mind in the least if they were controversial. It would also be very interesting if we find out that Ned had a bastard he left in the Vale, though it might be a little late in the game to introduce another Stark/Snow kid.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

In the entire story the only people who don't hold Ned in high regard are liars (Joffrey, Slynt), idiots (Cersei, Thorne) the uninformed (Dany), and the jealous (Littlefinger). Even those who didn't consider Ned their friend like Stannis, Jaime and Jorah, never contested his honor. Saying now that Littlefinger has been holding on to some dirty little secret that will suddenly come into play is insane. Whatever happens it won't have anything to do with Ned, that line of thinking is a huge stretch.

[maidenandwarrior]

In the entire story the only people who don't hold Ned in high regard are liars (Joffrey, Slynt), idiots (Cersei, Thorne) the uninformed (Dany), and the jealous (Littlefinger). Even those who didn't consider Ned their friend like Stannis, Jaime and Jorah, never contested his honor. Saying now that Littlefinger has been holding on to some dirty little secret that will suddenly come into play is insane. Whatever happens it won't have anything to do with Ned, that line of thinking is a huge stretch.

Um, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not remotely suggesting that Ned is suddenly dishonorable or evil. I simply think it would be interesting to find out that Ned had a bit of a wild youth. How is this holding Ned in low regard? Even Jon and Robb had sex with girls outside of marriage. Ned obviously settled down, and anything that happened in the Vale would have been before his marriage to Catelyn, so...not sure why hearing that he once acted like a teenager, had sex, or loved another woman would be a bad thing?

And if he does have a dirty secret (again, not sure where this idea came from), there is no requirement that Littlefinger is the one to reveal it. Nestor Royce would be a much better option.

[bent branch]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the controversy in Sansa's chapter will be the reveal that she was the one who poisoned Joffrey.

[Modesty Lannister]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the controversy in Sansa's chapter will be the reveal that she was the one who poisoned Joffrey.

But, we know who poisoned Joffrey. What is your theory based on and how would that further Sansa's arc? Are you suggesting a double poisoning? I'm not following this.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Well... strictly speaking, we only know that Olenna and Littlefinger poisoned Joffrey. There were a ton of people who hated the boy, so it's possible that Sansa also had some poison in that chalice. And half the rest of the court too, for that matter.

There are already theories suggesting that several people were going to kill both Ned and Tywin, but somebody else got to it first. The same could be the case for Joffrey, there could theoretically have been more poison than wine in that cup.

[Uldra I]

...

I'd rather he dies in the series. Like, my first impression of him was that he is another Joffrey in the making, and I've had a slight dislike for him ever since he wanted Tyrion to "fly". Plus, the state he is in, he would definitely not be an adequate ruler of the Vale. If he grows up to learn how to be a good ruler and becomes a better person, then I'll be all for it. But in his current state, it'd be much crueler for the people of the Vale to have him as a leader, and it'd be much crueler for him to be alive.

I realize how cold this idea is, but I will admit that I agree. If nothing else, he is in the way of Petyr's plans. I know for sure that LF will not suffer the child to outlive his welcome. And he would make a horrible ruler. :ack:

[Anima]

We know that Olenna and Littlefinger worked together to poison Joffrey. Olenna says she did in the series and Littlefinger was obviously aware that Joffrey was going to be poisoned because he tells it to Sansa and because he whisked Sansa away knwoing she would be under scrutiny.

And the one who actually did the poisoning was Florian the Fool using thepoison turned jewel in Sansa's hair net which was procured by Littlefinger. Sansa was completely oblivious to the poisoning though she had a lot of reason to wish Joffrey dead and she could still be accused of being an accomplice if an unsuspecting one.

There are a lot of controversial information that could be acquired during Sansa's next chapters. We could learn about NEd but we could also learn about Catelyn, we could learn about Sansa herself or about Littlefinger, or about Sweetrobin. All of theme are susceptible of having controversial information revealed.

Littlefinger could already have children if baseborn ones, among which Sweetrobin himself is a likely choice. Clearly Lysa Tully was madly in love with Littlefinger, a condition that I believe Littlefinger purposefully put her in. He oversaw the poisoning of Jon Arryn with Lysa's help. Lysa had extreme difficulties in producing an heir for Lord Arryn. Sweetrobin is of small of stature, weak bodied in general like we know Littlefinger was in his youth. He is described as often sickly but this is explained as a result of his mother overprotecting him making him weak willed and likely easily susceptible to bacterias.

Man I know everybody is just posting what they think or want about the story but sometimes I just get to thinking: "just wait". Though I wander on the forums because I don't like waiting as well and because I enjoy some of the crackpots here and there.

[Kyll.Ing.]

^I was going to refer to the "Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's bastard" theory in my long post on the other page, but ended up toning it down. Jon Arryn had three wives, and they all died before giving children. Supposedly there were miscarriages left and right. It just might be that Jon Arryn himself had "swimmer problems" resulting in extremely weak babies, if any. It's unlikely that two of his wives would give birth to the same kind of weak children (one of them ending in the death of both mother and child), without Jon being the common denominator.

[maidenandwarrior]

^I was going to refer to the "Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's bastard" theory in my long post on the other page, but ended up toning it down. Jon Arryn had three wives, and they all died before giving children. Supposedly there were miscarriages left and right. It just might be that Jon Arryn himself had "swimmer problems" resulting in extremely weak babies, if any. It's unlikely that two of his wives would give birth to the same kind of weak children (one of them ending in the death of both mother and child), without Jon being the common denominator.

Well, technically we don't know anything about Jeyne Royce Arryn's baby daughter, other than she was stillborn and Jeyne Royce died having her. But stillborn could mean anything, from dying because the baby couldn't fit through the birth canal, to getting the cord wrapped around its neck during the birth, to actually dying in the womb and being delivered dead. We just don't know. And Jon's second wife could have been barren, or she and Jon could have been married for a very short time.

The fact that Lysa got pregnant so many times before Littlefinger came to KL says to me that the problem was Lysa, not Jon. However, I can fully get onboard with the Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's kid theory...but would that be controversial? I really wouldn't be surprised by that, so I dunno how other people would react.

[ground_control]

Given that Sophie Turner supposedly filmed a rape scene for this season, that could be the controversial chapter moved up (like part of Mercy was for Arya).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/10679012/Game-of-Thrones-star-Sophie-Turner-films-rape-scene-in-front-of-parents.html

Or it could have just been a sensational way of referencing the kiss with Petyr. But anyway, I was kind of surprised to randomly see this article.

[Uldra I]

Given that Sophie Turner supposedly filmed a rape scene for this season, that could be the controversial chapter moved up (like part of Mercy was for Arya).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/10679012/Game-of-Thrones-star-Sophie-Turner-films-rape-scene-in-front-of-parents.html

Or it could have just been a sensational way of referencing the kiss with Petyr. But anyway, I was kind of surprised to randomly see this article.

Thanks for that link! Guess Sansa devotees will have to begin bolstering their courage for when that scene eventually airs. At least it will silence the folks who just will not accept that Sansa could ever be raped. :cheers:

ps. That is if they have enough courage to even go read it... :P