The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[The Ned's Little Girl]

SR misses his mother, he misses breastfeeding and he is gaining more and more control over Sansa -- she is letting him into her bed, letting him put his head between her breasts . . . soon he will ask that Sansa give him everything that his mother did.

Except for all the times she has him locked in his room so he won't do exactly that.

[Catastrophe]

Sansa dies and doesn't get resurrected and there are no more chapters with her.

[Raksha 2014]

I read this last night. As disgusting as it is, it's plausible, but god I hope that doesn't happen. I'd actually be sad if this is Robert's fate.

Poor little pathetic brat does not deserve such a horrid fate. No one does.

I don't see LF putting the blame on Harry-the-heir; because if SweetRobin dies, LF's claim to the Eyrie dies with him; his only hope of staying in power would be to have Harry die with reputation intact after having marrying Sansa and giving her a son.

[Modesty Lannister]

Poor little pathetic brat does not deserve such a horrid fate. No one does.

I don't see LF putting the blame on Harry-the-heir; because if SweetRobin dies, LF's claim to the Eyrie dies with him; his only hope of staying in power would be to have Harry die with reputation intact after having marrying Sansa and giving her a son.

The Vale is piece of cake for LF. His troubles will begin much later.

[falcotron]

I think the theory is silly, but all the people saying Lyn is a homosexual rather than a pedophile are even sillier.

The one piece of evidence we have is Littlefinger paying him "with gold and boys and promises All he likes is gold and boys and killing."

Of course Littlefinger could be using the word "boys" to mean young adult men; I'm sure he has some 17-year-old whores would have been either sufficiently trained to go with Lyn willingly, or sufficiently frightened to do so even unwilling, or maybe he even gives Lyn strong young unwilling brutes because breaking them down is what Lyn is really into. But those are all much more of a stretch than assuming that when LF says "boys" he means "boys".

Also, while LF is obviously not the most honest person in the world, assuming that every single word he says is the opposite of the truth is even dumber than assuming it's all true. He's teaching Sansa a lesson about how to control people, and then use them to control the situation; why throw in a pointless lie to complicate that?

I'm pretty confident that Lyn is a pedophile, and that's what LF is using to control him.

As for why the theory about Lyn raping SR is just as silly as the theory about him being a homosexual rather than a pedophile, again, the exact same quote that's being used as the only evidence for that theory is also the best evidence against it.

Lyn wants boys; he's getting a steady supply of them from LF. Betraying LF, giving up that steady supply of boys, and putting himself at risk just to get one boy, who we have no reason to believe is particularly attractive to Lyn's fetish, and who he'd almost certainly have to use and then discard to have any chance of getting away with it seriously?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I think its more likely that Sansa poisons someone and pins the crime on someone else. It would rid the story of a loose end and serve as a way for Alayne to again become Sansa. It would sort of be like her once again becoming a Stark by adhering to her father's rule of imposing the sentence and swinging the sword. It would be even better if the people she kills are Freys and Littlefinger is the one blamed. You know it would be fitting, to be taken down by the person he least suspects for the one thing he actually hasn't done.

[Targaryen Warg]

Does it make me sound like a bad person if I say that I would totally love this?

LF is just getting darker and more mysterious. Sansa is getting smarter. Robin is weak but unpredictable so that would mean that LF will have to get rid of him somehow and he'll drag anyone along the way. The pedophilia and the chance of OD on sweetsleep just make the whole thing seem so right.

[VisenyaLives]

Because House Baelish's sigil is Titan of Braavos, and in one Bran's chapters in AGOT, he saw a shadow of a giant behind his father and his sisters. Given that Baelish betrayed Ned and is interested in Sansa, many assume he is the giant Sansa will slay.

Can't the "Giant" also refer to Robert Strong?

[Mithras]

Can't the "Giant" also refer to Robert Strong?

That one belongs to Arya and Ser Sandor.

[Raksha 2014]

Interesting theory although I don't give it much credence. LF is already supplying Lyn with boys IIRC so he has no need to prey on Robin. As someone mentioned upthread it has been established that the Sansa chapter contains something that will be controversial to some members of the fandom so it seems unlikely that it involves child molestation which I assume would be abhorrent to all.

Personally I think that the nature of the controversy will have something directly to do with Sansa rather than the people around her. I am certain it will involve them too but I believe that she must have a big part to play in the controversial event. I am not convinced that LF will sexually abuse her. He wants her to accept his advances and is grooming her to become more comfortable with them, I can't see him wasting all his effort to rape her and turn her against him forever. He is far more cunning and controlled than that.

It could have something to do with the sweetsleep and Robin. Her actions when trying to get him safely down from the Eyrie were disturbing although I don't believe she had much choice. Her thought were the truly chilling part of that sequence however I am not convinced at all that she is going to play an active part in hurting or killing Robin.

Thinking about her thoughts in her last chapter she dismisses the danger to Robin posed by excessive consumption of sweetsleep and thinks something like "...father and I have bigger concerns" showing that she is becoming increasingly involved with his plans. My theory is that the controversy will surround her willingly going along with one of LF's diabolical plots and compromising her morality in a big way. Vague I know.

Yes; Sansa is straddling a moral line now (as of that last chapter of hers in AFFC). If Sansa knowingly takes a more active role in killing SweetRobin, then she will have crossed that line. It can be argued that the application of sweetsleep was necessary to get the fragile boy down the mountain, since he would starve if he stayed in the Eyrie and soon the weather would not permit them to leave; but Sansa's conscious connivance at the further use of sweetsleep on her cousin in the Vale would be problematic for me in terms of my continuing to like and admire her as a character.

[Modesty Lannister]

After what was done to Theon, I wouldn't be surprised by the introduction of pedophilia, although I think I may stop reading the books altogether at that point.

[jet199]

I don't think either LF or Sweetrobin will die in the next book.

I think the "controversial" Sansa chapter will probably be just another random temporary lesbianism scene which will definitely piss some people off.

[Sweetgirl205]

Let's face facts. Some people should find it controversial if Sansa decided to give up lemon cakes to drop a few pounds.

I think Sansa will team up with LF for a short time, giving the appearance that she approves of his actions. Brieanne will show up, which is not in LF's plans. Sansa will kill LF herself which will be controversial to some.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I'm always curious as to what Ran thinks to himself whenever he reads this kind of thread. Either evil laughter, or "What have I done?" :stunned:

[Lady Blue Rose]

The theories of LF taking advantage/raping of her or selling off SR or blaming someone else for something he did are all things that can be expected of him and, although disturbing, would be no more controversial than the previous times he's done similar things.

IMO, it is something that Sansa will do, HER CHOICE, that makes her seem like less of a moral princess/ stoic victim of her circumstances. Like ALL characters in this story, it is expected that Sansa will cross the line and compromise her character. Whether she uses sex as a weapon and gets off the Virgin Queen road; becomes increasingly irritated of SR and give him too many/ too high doses; or starts willingly playing LF's game because she figures she can gain something from it… which it is does not matter, what matters is that she becomes a player in a slightly dark way. Because let's be honest, there is so much a girl can take and still remain naive and pure unless she is dim-witted and Sansa really is at that point. The Sansa fandom would all consider this controversial since they could never fathom her being anything other than a perfect lady, moral high ground kind of girl.

If it is not something were she becomes a cunning player, then it is a scene where she dies. So far Sansa has remained a by-stander but this is the game of thrones, where you either win or you die, and if you don't play you certainly can't win.

[Mladen]

The theories of LF taking advantage/raping of her or selling off SR or blaming someone else for something he did are all things that can be expected of him and, although disturbing, would be no more controversial than the previous times he's done similar things.

IMO, it is something that Sansa will do, HER CHOICE, that makes her seem like less of a moral princess/ stoic victim of her circumstances. Like ALL characters in this story, it is expected that Sansa will cross the line and compromise her character. Whether she uses sex as a weapon and gets off the Virgin Queen road; becomes increasingly irritated of SR and give him too many/ too high doses; or starts willingly playing LF's game because she figures she can gain something from it… which it is does not matter, what matters is that she becomes a player in a slightly dark way. Because let's be honest, there is so much a girl can take and still remain naive and pure unless she is dim-witted and Sansa really is at that point. The Sansa fandom would all consider this controversial since they could never fathom her being anything other than a perfect lady, moral high ground kind of girl.

If it is not something were she becomes a cunning player, then it is a scene where she dies. So far Sansa has remained a by-stander but this is the game of thrones, where you either win or you die, and if you don't play you certainly can't win.

I am not so sure about necessity for her to become morally compromised. Game can be played in many different ways, and being decent human being is also one of them.

I also find problematic that people continuously quote "you win or you die" quote as some mantra for Game, when it is more than obvious that it is plainly false. Starks haven't won the game, and most of them are alive, Tywin won and he was killed. Simply, the game is far more complicated than that quote assumes.

I'm always curious as to what Ran thinks to himself whenever he reads this kind of thread. Either evil laughter, or "What have I done?" :stunned:

"What have I done?" is my guess :)

[Lady Blue Rose]

I am not so sure about necessity for her to become morally compromised. Game can be played in many different ways, and being decent human being is also one of them.

I also find problematic that people continuously quote "you win or you die" quote as some mantra for Game, when it is more than obvious that it is plainly false. Starks haven't won the game, and most of them are alive, Tywin won and he was killed. Simply, the game is far more complicated than that quote assumes.

There is yet to be a significant player that has actively played the game without any moral compromises, even Ned Stark compromised his honor when he tweaked Robert's dictation of his will. All characters in this story have shades of grey, it would be inconsistent in the story style for any one of them to not dabble in a morally grey area.

And the win or die was said in a cynical way… since so many beloved characters have died and Sansa is a sitting duck, hunted for the crime of kingslaying, therefore her being killed is a definite possibility.

On a side note, Tywin did not win the war, the war is not over.

[Mladen]

There is yet to be a significant player that has actively played the game without any moral compromises, even Ned Stark compromised his honor when he tweaked Robert's dictation of his will. All characters in this story have shades of grey, it would be inconsistent in the story style for any one of them to not dabble in a morally grey area.

And the win or die was said in a cynical way… since so many beloved characters have died and Sansa is a sitting duck, hunted for the crime of kingslaying, therefore her being killed is a definite possibility.

On a side note, Tywin did not win the war, the war is not over.

I am not speaking about someone being the saint, but someone using the brains and ethics to win the war. We have argued this many times and there are ways to win the game, even if you want your hands to remain clean. Ned was someone who wasn't thinking quite clearly and who lost the game due to refusal to play it. There is always a way... I am not saying that she will undoubtedly remain pure as Virgin Mary, but I wouldn't discard the possibility of her remaining the decent human being so easily.

As for Sansa being killed, I don't think so. Sansa is the only POV in Vale, and she is the window of that storyarc. Given that there will be no POVs, that is Sansa's plot armor. The POVs in danger are those who are in close proximity to more POVs - Dany, Barristan, Victarion, Tyrion, not those who can't be replaced.

[Woman of War]

I agree with both your posts, Lady Blue Rose.

If Sansa is no longer going to be shipped around like a parcel she has to start shaping her own destiny with brains nd cunning. She has tried that before when she intervened at Ned's expense - and finally her own and Arya's - only it backfired tragically. She was a little girl back then.

IMO, it is something that Sansa will do, HER CHOICE, that makes her seem like less of a moral princess/ stoic victim of her circumstances. Like ALL characters in this story, it is expected that Sansa will cross the line and compromise her character. Whether she uses sex as a weapon and gets off the Virgin Queen road; becomes increasingly irritated of SR and give him too many/ too high doses; or starts willingly playing LF's game because she figures she can gain something from it which it is does not matter, what matters is that she becomes a player in a slightly dark way. Because let's be honest, there is so much a girl can take and still remain naive and pure unless she is dim-witted and Sansa really is at that point. The Sansa fandom would all consider this controversial since they could never fathom her being anything other than a perfect lady, moral high ground kind of girl.

And, frankly, do I want to read anymore about little Sansa staying the perfect Lady, naive and pure? No thank you. Though she might keep her hands ladylike clean while she gets others to do the dirty job for her - until she finally snaps or not. And using her sexuality as means to whatever end is certainly not uglier or more immoral than using a knife or poison, so I would not understand any outrage if she brings Baelish down that way instead of directly knifing him without detour.

Remain the decent human being, Mladen........ She needs not remain totally decent, she may do horrible things but given Martin's narrative structure she as well would get her chance to redeem herself like some others will. So even if she gets far darker moral corruption will probably not be her final fate, Martin will probably not sentence her to death à la the bad girls go to hell.

I do not think that Sansa has been set up by Martin as getting killed, not even if she should leave the Vale, at least not before the very end. She may survive but within a life that is far, far away from her childhood dreams.

[Lady Blue Rose]

I am not speaking about someone being the saint, but someone using the brains and ethics to win the war. We have argued this many times and there are ways to win the game, even if you want your hands to remain clean. Ned was someone who wasn't thinking quite clearly and who lost the game due to refusal to play it. There is always a way... I am not saying that she will undoubtedly remain pure as Virgin Mary, but I wouldn't discard the possibility of her remaining the decent human being so easily.

As for Sansa being killed, I don't think so. Sansa is the only POV in Vale, and she is the window of that storyarc. Given that there will be no POVs, that is Sansa's plot armor. The POVs in danger are those who are in close proximity to more POVs - Dany, Barristan, Victarion, Tyrion, not those who can't be replaced.

I never said she would stop being a decent human being and become the epitome of evil, there are plenty of characters who do dubious things and are still over-all decent. That is the definition of grey characters. As for keeping your hands clean, this isn't the type of story where people will rally and come in hordes to start a revolution for a character because she is pure of heart. Every character in this story is watching out for his own interest or overwhelmed by his own survival. I don't think that there will be a single character in this story whose morality will survived unscathed. Not being 100% decent does not make her a bad person, especially under the circumstances- when it comes to survival, it is not a black or white issue and Sansa's options are rapidly dwindling.

You do have a very valid point with her currently being the only POV character in the Vail.

I agree with both your posts, Lady Blue Rose.

If Sansa is no longer going to be shipped around like a parcel she has to start shaping her own destiny with brains nd cunning. She has tried that before when she intervened at Ned's expense - and finally her own and Arya's - only it backfired tragically. She was a little girl back then.

And, frankly, do I want to read anymore about little Sansa staying the perfect Lady, naive and pure? No thank you. Though she might keep her hands ladylike clean while she gets others to do the dirty job for her - until she finally snaps or not. And using her sexuality as means to whatever end is certainly not uglier or more immoral than using a knife or poison, so I would not understand any outrage if she brings Baelish down that way instead of directly knifing him without detour.

Remain the decent human being, Mladen........ She needs not remain totally decent, she may do horrible things but given Martin's narrative structure she as well would get her chance to redeem herself like some others will. So even if she gets far darker moral corruption will probably not be her final fate, Martin will probably not sentence her to death à la the bad girls go to hell.

I do not think that Sansa has been set up by Martin as getting killed, not even if she should leave the Vale, at least not before the very end. She may survive but within a life that is far, far away from her childhood dreams.

Exactly, Sansa getting killed is not what I really, truly in my heart believe will happen, but she is being hunted so she needs to start protecting herself and that is why I think her character will start to take control and make judgement calls to watch her own back, even at a trade-off. I'm not saying she will become Arya 2.0- that will never happen and I can't picture Sansa getting bloody. I think Sansa's character is better served by playing the game from behind the scenes- using her femininity, sexuality and innocent image to persuade others. She has had the perfect opportunity to learn from the best: Cersei, Olenna, LF… they are like the Harvard School of manipulation.