The Controversial Sansa Chapter

[Mladen]

I never said she would stop being a decent human being and become the epitome of evil, there are plenty of characters who do dubious things and are still over-all decent. That is the definition of grey characters. As for keeping your hands clean, this isn't the type of story where people will rally and come in hordes to start a revolution for a character because she is pure of heart. Every character in this story is watching out for his own interest or overwhelmed by his own survival. I don't think that there will be a single character in this story whose morality will survived unscathed. Not being 100% decent does not make her a bad person, especially under the circumstances- when it comes to survival, it is not a black or white issue and Sansa's options are rapidly dwindling.

You do have a very valid point with her currently being the only POV character in the Vail.

I am not some moral absolutist, and I tend to agree with you. As for people following those of pure hands, just remember Robb, or then, remember how people are joining High Sparrow's armies because of his preachings. Then remember how Northern clans gathered to march to Winterfell solely because of Ned's little girl. Or when Margaery is saved because people love her due to her PR campaigning with them in ASOS and AFFC. Decency, and by it I mean moral code, can be useful tool, and yes, even powerful tool in the Game.

Remain the decent human being, Mladen........ She needs not remain totally decent, she may do horrible things but given Martin's narrative structure she as well would get her chance to redeem herself like some others will. So even if she gets far darker moral corruption will probably not be her final fate, Martin will probably not sentence her to death à la the bad girls go to hell.

I usually don't get into discussion what I or anyone else would find better or more interesting story. I am simply discussing narrative-wise. And Sansa showed some outstanding ability to remain the compassionate and decent human being throughout all the bad things that have happened to her. So, what are the options here: playing Game and being morally corrupt and being pawn and remain the decency? Well, it's not that simple. Game can be played, and is played on many different levels, and as I pointed out already, decency and morals work sometimes. Not always, but sometimes.

I would also discard the idea of Sansa being the "pure as the snow". But, that doesn't entail the possibility of she remaining all the moral standings she kept up until now. Even now, she is in the grey zone, and I doubt there is any reader out there who can say that she isn't decent person in any aspect of the word. So, grey zone isn't something that I run from, what I disagree is that Sansa must become morally compromised for her story to make sense, or become some seductress to make people listen to her. I find that view rather one dimensional and narrow. I am not excluding the possibility of that happening, although I don't believe in it, but the "must happen" factor is something I am arguing against. Even I am not saying that something must happen in Sansa's story.

[Lady Blue Rose]

I am not some moral absolutist, and I tend to agree with you. As for people following those of pure hands, just remember Robb, or then, remember how people are joining High Sparrow's armies because of his preachings. Then remember how Northern clans gathered to march to Winterfell solely because of Ned's little girl. Or when Margaery is saved because people love her due to her PR campaigning with them in ASOS and AFFC. Decency, and by it I mean moral code, can be useful tool, and yes, even powerful tool in the Game.

I usually don't get into discussion what I or anyone else would find better or more interesting story. I am simply discussing narrative-wise. And Sansa showed some outstanding ability to remain the compassionate and decent human being throughout all the bad things that have happened to her. So, what are the options here: playing Game and being morally corrupt and being pawn and remain the decency? Well, it's not that simple. Game can be played, and is played on many different levels, and as I pointed out already, decency and morals work sometimes. Not always, but sometimes.

I would also discard the idea of Sansa being the "pure as the snow". But, that doesn't entail the possibility of she remaining all the moral standings she kept up until now. Even now, she is in the grey zone, and I doubt there is any reader out there who can say that she isn't decent person in any aspect of the word. So, grey zone isn't something that I run from, what I disagree is that Sansa must become morally compromised for her story to make sense, or become some seductress to make people listen to her. I find that view rather one dimensional and narrow. I am not excluding the possibility of that happening, although I don't believe in it, but the "must happen" factor is something I am arguing against. Even I am not saying that something must happen in Sansa's story.

Robb was betrayed and killed. People join the High Sparrow's army because that protects them from having to pick a side in the very devastating war. Margeary is kind and giving because her family works as a unit and she is the image of innocence while the others do the dirty work; people love her because strategically, not really out of only kindness, buys their love with food when they are starving because all their fields have been burned in the war. Sansa has none of those options to offer. You have to take into account the actual possibilities she has and the situation in which she currently finds herself.

The fact that you have reacted so fiercely against the possibility of Sansa being even a little bit grey just serves to prove my point that out of most things that could happen, Sansa soiling her pure soul would be seen as very controversial, shocking and unacceptable. You have reacted as if I as suggested that Sansa was going to go in a mass murder.

As opposed to you, I find a situation in which a character going through so much strife would never act out negatively in response, never become even a little bit cynic, bitter and skeptic, or act in a selfish way as extremely one- dimensional and unrealistic. I find that believing this is possible, especially in a GRRM book, very narrow minded. Woman of War did not say that Sansa must become morally compromise, she said that in order for Sansa does not need to remain decent in order to be considered a good, worthy character by the end- even if she did something bad, she could remain a redeemable character- you misinterpreted her meaning.

[Mladen]

The fact that you have reacted so fiercely against the possibility of Sansa being even a little bit grey just serves to prove my point that out of most things that could happen, Sansa soiling her pure soul would be seen as very controversial, shocking and unacceptable. You have reacted as if I as suggested that Sansa was going to go in a mass murder.

As opposed to you, I find a situation in which a character going through so much strife would never act out negatively in response, never become even a little bit cynic, bitter and skeptic, or act in a selfish way as extremely one- dimensional and unrealistic. I find that believing this is possible, especially in a GRRM book, very narrow minded. Woman of War did not say that Sansa must become morally compromise, she said that in order for Sansa does not need to remain decent in order to be considered a good, worthy character by the end- even if she did something bad, she could remain a redeemable character- you misinterpreted her meaning.

You missed the point. I haven't objected the possibility of Sansa becoming "greyer", I objected the idea that it must happen. How about I say now "Sansa must become Queen" Why? "Because that is what I find amusing." Would you object to that and offer counter-arguments? Normally. Simply put, my reaction towards the limited opinion how the Game functions is poor excuse for any point. If you believe something, stand by it, defend it with arguments but don't use my reaction as the umbrella.

Well, the situation in which someone remain decent person despite the horrible things that happens to them is actually in the books. You can call me narrow-minded, but that conclusion came from ASOIAF. You can repeat my adjectives but the thing is that we see Sansa helping Lancel after he participated in tormenting her with Joffrey, we see her reproaching herself for being stubborn when Tyrion is being laughed on their wedding, even though she is being forcefully married to him. We see her helping Margaery... Time after time, we see Sansa being kind and decent to people who has done her wrong. So, whether you consider something unrealistic, one-dimensional and narrow-minded, thing is that is part of the books.

Robb was betrayed and killed. People join the High Sparrow's army because that protects them from having to pick a side in the very devastating war. Margeary is kind and giving because her family works as a unit and she is the image of innocence while the others do the dirty work; people love her because strategically, not really out of only kindness, buys their love with food when they are starving because all their fields have been burned in the war. Sansa has none of those options to offer. You have to take into account the actual possibilities she has and the situation in which she currently finds herself.

Robb is also even now followed by some lords, his cause is far from dead. People join High Sparrow out of many reason, and the return to the values is one of them. Doran Martell plays the game while remaining decent person. Simply, the moral corruption and the necessity of it is something that is one way to see the game. But, that is not all. Possibilities for Sansa are wide open. There are many ways this could go... Being a player and decent person are not mutually exclusive.

[Lady Blue Rose]

You missed the point. I haven't objected the possibility of Sansa becoming "greyer", I objected the idea that it must happen. How about I say now "Sansa must become Queen" Why? "Because that is what I find amusing." Would you object to that and offer counter-arguments? Normally. Simply put, my reaction towards the limited opinion how the Game functions is poor excuse for any point. If you believe something, stand by it, defend it with arguments but don't use my reaction as the umbrella….

...

My speculation of what might happen with Sansa is also based on ASOIAF. I, too, read the books. ;) I specifically refer to the sentiments from her last chapter in AFFC, which I found very telling.

Why I think Sansa is becoming a cynic:

In KL, Sansa was always hopeful that someone, somehow would help her; give her a way out. In this chapter when Myranda tells her Jon Snow is commander of the NW, she feels a yearning to see him but instead of being her hopeful self and dreaming of a reunion she proceeds to lament somberly that Alayne has no siblings. For me this was a very marked difference from the old Sansa who lived on hopes and dreams to a defeated and resined attitude of feeling like she has no way out.

Why I think Sansa may use her sexuality to an advantage:

Suddenly GRRM is exposing Sansa to the sexual aspects a lot in this chapter. Sweet Robin kisses her, and she evaluates the kiss as sloppy but decides she could close her eyes and imagine it was Loras, remembers the flower she got from him and laments that she will never get anything else. Later on, she thinks of the kiss from the hound.

On the way down the mountain Myranda talks to her a lot, openly, about sex.

The chapter closes when she meets LF. She greets him with a kiss on the cheek and tells him she's glad to see him. His response:

“I did not expect you back so soon,” she said. “I am glad you’ve come.”

“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”

“Yes, Father.” She could feel herself blushing

Finally , after LF has told her of her engagement and what it means, the chapter's last sentence:

"That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"

This is a lot of talking of sex and thinking of kissing for Sansa, who is not used to and has never been put in the position of being surrounded/ put in influence of girls who are not maidens and take sex as a casual enjoyment. I think it is telling of things to come… especially the chapter ending with LF asking for another kiss.

Why I think Sansa may join the LF type of attitude, where she puts her needs, wants of purpose above others and might poison Sweet Robin:

For the first time we start seeing a more calculating Sansa come through. Sansa would normally put a child's welfare above anything else but when the time comes to take SweetRobin down the mountain, Colemon suggest giving him milk of poppy her answer

"The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn.” Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert’s frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do.

After Colemon explains that he cannot be given sweetmilk because he had some three days ago and it's bad for him, she demands he be given sweetmilk anyway thinking:

[quote] Colemon only wanted what was best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

[Mladen]

My speculation of what might happen with Sansa is also based on ASOIAF. I, too, read the books. ;) I specifically refer to the sentiments from her last chapter in AFFC, which I found very telling.

Why I think Sansa is becoming a cynic:

In KL, Sansa was always hopeful that someone, somehow would help her; give her a way out. In this chapter when Myranda tells her Jon Snow is commander of the NW, she feels a yearning to see him but instead of being her hopeful self and dreaming of a reunion she proceeds to lament somberly that Alayne has no siblings. For me this was a very marked difference from the old Sansa who lived on hopes and dreams to a defeated and resined attitude of feeling like she has no way out.

The information that you read ASOIAF is completely unnecessary. One could have concluded that from your participation on this forum ;)

I don't get the vibe that Sansa is defeated in any form. I do believe she thinks she has no friend, and that it makes a wonderful field for Baelish to try to seduce her. But, her general mistrust and lack of any sort of romantic/sexual and any other feelings suggest that LF will have rather difficult job. Sansa has transformed. Alayne is mask, but more than that, Sansa grew up. It has been happening for quite some time, chapter by chapter. What we see in he last AFFC chapter is in not as spectacular as it is expected. She has grown up, as a 13 year-old girl can be grown up, and learnt some difficult lessons. Will Sansa be cynical? She certainly has the potential, but Sansa continuously believe in the good in people, something she shares with good portion of her family.

Why I think Sansa may use her sexuality to an advantage:

Suddenly GRRM is exposing Sansa to the sexual aspects a lot in this chapter. Sweet Robin kisses her, and she evaluates the kiss as sloppy but decides she could close her eyes and imagine it was Loras, remembers the flower she got from him and laments that she will never get anything else. Later on, she thinks of the kiss from the hound.

On the way down the mountain Myranda talks to her a lot, openly, about sex.

Suddenly? That is far from the word I would use, Sansa has been exposed to sex for quite some time, from her traumatic flowering in being stripped naked in front of everyone in the court to Sandor's visit during Blackwater bay battle in ACOK to her first wedding night in ASOS and Littlefinger's kisses... There has always been sexual undertone in Sansa's story. What happens in the last chapter is more or less, natural continuation of the usage of the motif.

This is a lot of talking of sex and thinking of kissing for Sansa, who is not used to and has never been put in the position of being surrounded/ put in influence of girls who are not maidens and take sex as a casual enjoyment. I think it is telling of things to come… especially the chapter ending with LF asking for another kiss.

I am sorry, but Sansa has been put in position of being surrounded with people talking about sex. Just remember Cersei and her talk during Blackwater bay battle.

All and all, you haven't given the answer to why you believe Sansa will use her sexuality as advantage. You spake about the sexuality being prominent in her chapters (normal for adolescent girl), but you failed to provide any substantial proof to why she will use her sexuality as the weapon. I am not saying that it won't happen, just that you didn't give me anything of the sort. I suppose that in TWOW, we will see Sansa's sexuality developing, as it has been developing throughout the series. As for her using it, it certainly is possibility.

From this you can gather that she is aware that SweetRobin is being poisoned slowly but puts LF's and her needs first, that is a big change in her normally caring and gentle attitude.

No, this doesn't give us some insight that Sansa knows they are poisoning SR. She genuinely cares for the boy, and when LF spake about her death, you see her thinking in different direction. She understood the gravity of the situation and understood that the two sides are colliding, but it is illogical to argue that she is fully aware of LF's plan to poison SR to his death.

She also is becoming more obsessed with and very attached to Petyr. In addition to the I wish he were here… quoted above, she thinks:

More importantly is when she remembers her fathers words and puts Petyr above them in complete idolization:

I have heard many ideas about Sansa being dependable on LF, which I agreed to a certain point, but these are hilarious. She is obsessed witH LF and she idolizes him? Um, no. Sansa repeatedly is feeling repulsed by the man, she even notices the difference between the masks. Petyr has to force her to be intimate with her, as was shown in her last chapter in AFFC. She is clearly comprehending how smart he is and she learns some tidbits from him. She sees him dealing with Vale lords and she understands that some game has been played. Sansa is simply someone who is feeling dependable of LF, because as she said "I would run if I have where to go" or "I don't trust them either (LF and Petyr)". She is also learning from him, and she feels great gratitude towards him for saving her. But there is long way, light years far way from calling that anywhere near obsession.

These are the facts and arguments that led me to believe Sansa may soon be taking a stroll down the grayer areas of life and morality. I chose to focus my theory in the most recent narrations in Sansa's chapters, not in what I would find more amusing as you claim. There has been a poignant change in her situation, her behavior and her introspections since she left King's Landing and I give more weight to that than to past actions. However, my opinion, just as yours, is just speculation about what will happen in a book that has not been finished. You chose to focus on her past pattern of behavior and that works too, after all, neither one of us has read the controversial chapter. But, there has been no need for you to be condescending or pick on me, when I was not the only one on this forum to suggest this… and this topic is just about silly, stab in the dark, speculations.

Well, I don't think you can solely focus on one line without looking into a boarder context and apparently that seems the problem with your interpretation. You speak how Sansa is in more sexual situations in Vale, when we know that she has been in many of those in KL. You speak about Myranda's speech as something that she is unaccustomed to, when we have her hearing about it in ACOK. I am not focusing on one part of Sansa's journey like you do, I am focusing on her entire story. What works narrative-wise and isn't in contrition with what we have seen from her.

You are free to state your opinion, but be also prepare to defend it. If I disagree, I will do it in civilized manner, as I have done, pointing things that I believe are in contrition with the material we have. I do believe that I have emphasized several times in this thread that there are many options opened for Sansa. I am just firm believer that we shouldn't discuss what type of story makes Sansa less boring or less yawn, and whether this or that is needed to make her story more interesting. And just like I am against determinations on one, I am also against determinations on another side. And I made myself clear that although I believe that Sansa doesn't have to become morally compromised, there is an option of that happening.

[Mithras]

Sansa killing Sweetrobin is one hell of a :bs:

Here is a quote from the last Alayne POV:

What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne... “Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.”
“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”
“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

This is a person struggling between two personalities. Alayne is the one who is content to get rid of SR slowly.

Since we will see that the Starks will return from where they are hiding starting in WoW, whether it is a place (Skagos) or fake identities (Alayne, whatever name Arya goes by); I think Alayne is very close to an end. We will have Sansa POVs again and Sansa never poisons her cousin. I think that breakpoint will be the attempted rape of LF, which is highly foreshadowed.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Maybe GRRM wants to make a parallel Alayne-Mercy.Mercy returned for a bit in Arya and killed Raff so why not Alayne return for a bit in Sansa and do something (protect SR or kill LF or I don't know what else)?

[Modesty Lannister]

post 84

Every point you made is valid and substantiated. She does see herself and Petyr as a team. I find that very chapter controversial, because on one hand she talks about LF as her father, then she remembers what her real father said and tends to disagree. She acts like LF's daughter, but she doesn't refute a single physical advance made by him, which is strange indeed. So, that chapter shows that Sansa is not only conflicted about her identity, she is also conflicted about placing her budding sexuality into each of her identities. Also, Sansa entered the grey area when she became an accomplice to her aunt's murder. By doing so, she recognised LF actions as something that was in her own interest. Also, it has to be said that she differentiates between lord Baelish's public persona i.e. Littlefinger and his private one i.e. Petyr. She distrusts the former, but she seems to trust the latter. Arya's and Sansa's arcs in the books can be seen as parallel from Ned's beheading onwards. They were both tortured, witnessed torture, escaped their respective places of torture - KL and Riverlands and now they are apprenticing with "kind men" who are not what they seem. While the accent of Arya's arc is on extrovert and physical action, the accent of Sansa's arc is on introvert and psychological games. I do not think LF will rape Sansa because ha had plenty of opportunities to do so already. That is not his game. If I go by the Mercy chapter about Arya, it boils down to her using her sexuality to get what she wants - her kill. It can be subsequently argued that in Sansa's parallel arc she would use her sexuality to win a psychological round in the game. However, I do not think she will try to seduce LF. There is no need for her to do that. I think the controversial bit will be her obeying LF's suggestions and seducing Harry the Heir as a part of LF's plot to discredit Harry and strip him of his position of the heir of the Vale. The very controversial part would be Sansa going along with LF's plans with their full knowledge. As you said, we can only speculate and it's fun to do so, because there is nothing to read until some time next year hopefully.

[Fey]

Kind of irrelevant but man do I need to reread Sansa's chapters, particularly the ones with LF and analyze their relationship and find any parallels. I just realized that both LF and Sansa seem to have imagined both of their first (or one of their first) sexual experiences. I wonder what else is hidden in there.

[Makk]

Just a complete guess, don't actually think it will happen, just putting it out there.

What if, at Littlefingers insistence, she agreed to in some way discredit Rickon's claim to the North?

I do think the "controversial chapter" will be about one of her own actions. The Corbray theory was somewhat interesting but I doubt Littlefinger will be wanting to dispose of Sweet Robin for quite a few years. He needs to secure his own power first.

[armidil0]

I hope Sansa eats Baelish's brain to gain his cunning and then bathe in the blood of her enemies all in one chapter then go back to normal like nothing happened.

Bam! ONE controversial Sansa chapter.

But it's probably sex stuff, which isn't really controversial unless it's rapey.

[Lady Blue Rose]

Just a complete guess, don't actually think it will happen, just putting it out there.

What if, at Littlefingers insistence, she agreed to in some way discredit Rickon's claim to the North?

I do think the "controversial chapter" will be about one of her own actions. The Corbray theory was somewhat interesting but I doubt Littlefinger will be wanting to dispose of Sweet Robin for quite a few years. He needs to secure his own power first.

I've never felt like Rickon will be all that important, he was 3 when this all started and should be 5, by now. The brain does very crappy job of storing memories before the age of 2. And while as a child you can recall some memories from before the age of 3-4, it is usually with stimuli (which lets be honest, no one is there to talk about his parents and their ways) and becomes harder with time. A person's first memory is usually between the age of 3.5- 5 years, so he will likely not remember WF or much about his siblings- just the general existence or notion of those things.

Also, Rickon was a baby who spent most of his time with his mother and was yet to be exposed to others. Other than his siblings, there is probably no one alive that would recognize him (he does not have the Stark coloring) and support his claim to WF except Osha- a wildling). If he shows up, his claim will be labeled dubious at best by those craving control of WF and the North.

I think this is why I want Rickon to be found and brought home more and reunited with ANY of his siblings- i's not fair that he won't really remember/have anyone to teach him the Stark ways… breaks my heart!!

I hope Sansa eats Baelish's brain to gain his cunning and then bathe in the blood of her enemies all in one chapter then go back to normal like nothing happened.

Bam! ONE controversial Sansa chapter.

But it's probably sex stuff, which isn't really controversial unless it's rapey.

Brain eating and blood bathing, that would be a very controversial Sansa chapter!! LOL.

Sansa giving away her virtue for anything other than true love will be seen as controversial for the Sansa fandom. Even if it was her idea to persuade someone the Cersei way, they'll probably claim she was cornered into it, had no way out, and it ws the equivalent of rape...

[Woman of War]

Brain eating and blood bathing, that would be a very controversial Sansa chapter!! LOL.

Sansa giving away her virtue for anything other than true love will be seen as controversial for the Sansa fandom. Even if it was her idea to persuade someone the Cersei way, they'll probably claim she was cornered into it, had no way out, and it ws the equivalent of rape...

This

Agency from Sansa's side will only be accepted as agency by her devoted fans if she does with that agency what said fans want her to do. Anything else can't be exercising agency, obviously :D

[piles]

and he hasn't forced himself upon her because she is a valuable bargaining chip and her maidenhead needs to remain intact, it would make sense that once Robb's will is declared and LF finds she has been disinherited from her claim to the North, he'll try to force himself upon her because she has no political value anymore and no one will care for her maidenhead

I don't think this is true at all. Even if Jon were legitimized, Sansa would still be the heir to Winterfell as no-one knows that Bran and Rickon are alive (except those plotting). Since Robb goes as far as to behead one of his bannermen for killing Lannisters from a lesser branch, I think the punishment from the North for forcing himself upon the heir to Winterfell would be similar.

In all, this theory is pretty poor. Based on speculation, mostly, and of the worst kind.

[Maege]

My 2 pennies:

Sansa will take a page out of LF's book and kill SR with an elaborate scheme (and out of mercy to SR) and blame it on LF. She will reveal herself as Sansa, marry HtH, and carry out LFs execution herself. She will remain as the queen of the Eyrie and be protected by Brienne against regicide allegations until Dany, Tyrion, and Co. land there as they enter Westeros.

[Makk]

I've never felt like Rickon will be all that important, he was 3 when this all started and should be 5, by now. The brain does very crappy job of storing memories before the age of 2. And while as a child you can recall some memories from before the age of 3-4, it is usually with stimuli (which lets be honest, no one is there to talk about his parents and their ways) and becomes harder with time. A person's first memory is usually between the age of 3.5- 5 years, so he will likely not remember WF or much about his siblings- just the general existence or notion of those things.

Also, Rickon was a baby who spent most of his time with his mother and was yet to be exposed to others. Other than his siblings, there is probably no one alive that would recognize him (he does not have the Stark coloring) and support his claim to WF except Osha- a wildling). If he shows up, his claim will be labeled dubious at best by those craving control of WF and the North.

I think this is why I want Rickon to be found and brought home more and reunited with ANY of his siblings- i's not fair that he won't really remember/have anyone to teach him the Stark ways… breaks my heart!!

The Starks deserve a break... but you don't always get what you deserve, particularly from GRRM.

I don't think Rickon himself will be important by any actions he takes, but seems to be important as a rallying point for north with Manderly sending Davos to look for him. If a five year old came in riding a direwolf, it would convince quite a few people who he was.

As I said, I don't actually think Sansa would turn on Rickon. It would be one of the most heinous things I could envisage her doing, which is what I tried brainstorming about when thinking up a controversial chapter. I do think it could be interesting though, if her and Littlefinger did start amassing power, she gets announced as who she is (the heir to WF) and then Rickon turns up the situation is quite complex. Definitely not what LF would want to see.

[Makk]

I don't think this is true at all. Even if Jon were legitimized, Sansa would still be the heir to Winterfell as no-one knows that Bran and Rickon are alive (except those plotting). Since Robb goes as far as to behead one of his bannermen for killing Lannisters from a lesser branch, I think the punishment from the North for forcing himself upon the heir to Winterfell would be similar.

In all, this theory is pretty poor. Based on speculation, mostly, and of the worst kind.

Rob announced Jon as his heir (thinking Bran and Rickon were dead) specifically to make sure Sansa, who had just been married to Tyrion, was not.

[Lady Blue Rose]

The Starks deserve a break... but you don't always get what you deserve, particularly from GRRM.

I don't think Rickon himself will be important by any actions he takes, but seems to be important as a rallying point for north with Manderly sending Davos to look for him. If a five year old came in riding a direwolf, it would convince quite a few people who he was.

As I said, I don't actually think Sansa would turn on Rickon. It would be one of the most heinous things I could envisage her doing, which is what I tried brainstorming about when thinking up a controversial chapter. I do think it could be interesting though, if her and Littlefinger did start amassing power, she gets announced as who she is (the heir to WF) and then Rickon turns up the situation is quite complex. Definitely not what LF would want to see.

You're right. Rickon showing up would definitely be a game changer for everyone trying to get WF but I think people would accuse him of being a random child impostor posing as Rickon.

And Jesus, Allah, Buddha, the old gods, R'hllor, the Drowned God, the Storm God, the seven and any other religious deity real or fictitious knows that the Starks deserve a break. It's like they were the Westerosi equivalent of Hitler, Nero, Attila, Ghengis Khan and Vlad Dracula all wrapped into one, in their past lives and Karma is catching up with them in this one!!!

Rob announced Jon as his heir (thinking Bran and Rickon were dead) specifically to make sure Sansa, who had just been married to Tyrion, was not.

Have you not encountered the Sansa fandom yet? Their canon is: (1) Sansa cannot and will not do wrong, EVER. (2) Ignore any statement or action that might indicate the opposite. (3) NO matter how clearly it is stated, if it is bad for Sansa, it is not real. Sometimes I think the Sansa fans, more than any bought special ASOIAF editions in which paragraphs stating things detrimental to their Sansa have been edited out.

You are right, Robb did make the will thinking that he did not want Tyrion to het WF through Sansa but Sansa supporters ignore that piece of information. The whole whether Sansa could claim WF or not is a huge debate...

[Sand Snake and Shake]

I will say having a man known for violence and his love of little boys held up in a castle during winter with a frail little boy who spends most of his days drugged has the POSSIBILITY for something super creepy to happen.....

It may or may not happen, but it has the elements for something UGH to occur.

[Sand Snake and Shake]

(...and I am NOT equating liking men to pedophilia. When Rob and Jon are called 'almost men' in their teens, I take the word boy to be descriptive for someone under the age of 12. I don't fully support this theory but when it is written that he 'likes boys' I took it at face value as the POSSIBILITY of foreshadowing for the potential of something UGH to happen.)