(Book Spoilers) Speculating on events at the wall

[The Onion Sleight]

I hope Jon is elected this season, because they have lots of stuff to go through the next, and they're cramming affc/adwd into season 5 so it would be best to just get it out of the way and move forward. It seems to be leading that way, because they've mentioned it already and they're showing how Jon is very much a contender for it. If anything I'd be more inclined to think Stannis' offer will be left out until next season (or left out altogether, as he does know his brother is still alive).

Jon knows this, yes, but Stannis doesn't know it. And even if Jon on the show would decline his offer faster than on the books, trying to legalize Jon is the smartest move Stannis could do, Imo. It's like Ramsay said in 4x02: "If Bran and Rickon Stark are alive, the country will rally to their side" and then later "He (Jon) is half Stark himself, could be a threat". Who is a Stark or in other cases who "has" a Stark reigns the North, and the North would rally to them; Stannis knows this, Roose knows this, Manderly also, and LF too. So everybody wants to "have" a Stark, and so who of Sansa, Rickon, legalized Jon or "Arya Stark" would get Winterfell is important.

And if Jon would have accept the offer, I think, Stannis' campaign in the North would have been much easier, with Jon's refusing he had to "take a page from Robert's book" and try to earn the Northmen's support.

Imo, is the offer important (although it's later declined), not only for Stannis, the Boltons, the situation in the North; but also for Jon it's an interesting and difficult situation, the decision between The Wall and Lord of Winterfell, okay, now he knows his brothers are still alive, but Stannis' offer (and the Boltons' fArya) proves the power the name Stark and Winterfell have still in the North and gives/shows the audience the option what could (have) happen if the North gets an heir of Ned Stark and a new Lord of Winterfell and how this could change the situation for the Boltons; it gives hope, even it's later Ramsay who becomes the Lord of Winterfell and "Arya Stark" as an heir of Ned shows up (who HAS to be on the show, Imo!), and Jon's refusing makes his and Stannis' sitations much more interesting than if he had acctepted.

This isn't a bad approximation, seems reasonable. The only things I would add are a scene in KL with the Mountain and Qyburn, and some sort of dead-man-walking scene with Tyrion, and maybe Balon's death. I think Ramsey becoming heir, while at the same time Theon technically becomes heir, could be cool. This episode already leans heavily towards a theme of making the hard choices, so It would fit.

Is it confirmed that ST is in this episode? I could see her stuff finishing next episode...

I think it would be extremely cool to have the Stannis/Jon offer and Ramsay's legitimation in one episode! The legitimations (or "nearly" legitimation) of these two Snows would mirror nicely.

Roose, who's now the rightful Warden of the North because the Crown says so and who got his position with murder and scheming; and Ramsay Snow, who always wanted to become a Bolton, did everything for this, and gets his position with murdering and unscrupulousness and is then a rightful heir and later Lord of Winterfell.

(Oh, and of course, don't let's forget the Crown/King on the IT himself is unlawful, but still seen as rightful by many)

Stannis, who's the rightful King of Westeros but the Crown calls him a traitor and usurper and who got his position because of his blood and the law; and Jon Snow, who also always wanted to become a Stark (even if he doesn't admit it), but rufuses the offer to be instead LC and protect the realm (but is also seen as a traitor by some), but who actually had the blood to become the legalized rightful Lord of Winterfell.

I would love to have some mirroring with Stannis/Jon/Roose/Ramsay and the whole legimation-rightful/unlawful-Winterfell-situation and how this effects the North.

Jon/Stannis who represent "the rightfuls (=blood&law)" but also "the traitors", and who want to save the kingdom vs.

Roose/Ramsay "the unlawfuls" but with the Crown's power now "the rightfuls (=King on the IT's okay)", who have egoistic goals and murder and scheme to get what they want.

Or Jon/Ramsay as the opposing bastards and Stannis/Roose who can be compared very well, Strongest Of All Belwas said last year in another thread:

Roose is like an anti-matter universe version of Stannis.

Stannis is fighting, with just cause, to take the seat that is rightfully his; Roose betrayed and murdered to lay claim to the seat that he wanted.

If Stannis doesn't trust you, he doesn't keep you around; Roose protects himself by keeping ALL of his enemies close.

Stannis has a child with a major flaw, who is sweet and innocent, whom he loves deeply; Roose has a child with a major flaw, who is disturbed and wicked, whom he hates deeply.

Stannis sets aside feelings an marries a woman he doesn't love, for the good of the realm; Roose sets aside attraction and marries for coin.

Stannis is viewed a traitor and hated by many, but doesn't care, for it's his duty; Roose is viewed a traitor and hated by many, but doesn't care, because he just doesn't give a damn.

Both are grim, yet (somewhat funny) sarcastic men who take their agendas deathly serious, care not for the thoughts of others, and sometimes kill their foes in rather terrifying (at least, in my eyes) ways, with burning and flaying (Roose still flays, I don't think it's just Ramsay)...

They were meant to meet. So different, yet still somewhat similar. The Universeros may collapse when they meet.

To cut a long story short, I hope for some nice dialogue between Stannis/Jon and Roose/Ramsay (let's exaggerate and say the heroes and their antagonists); there's still this scene coming with Ramsay and Roose "walking through Belfast" -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn7ArWFrBnc (1:52 - 2:11 min), hopefully also in 4x10 the scene with Jon and Stannis on The Wall.

Edited: I also think these scenes/dialogues would fit perfectely to the episode's "Children" theme:

Ramsay as Roose's son and Jon as Ned's son

- One legitimation because the son gave his father a castle by murdering (and torturing) and because the father utilizes his son for his porposes;

and one because of politics and "simply" because of the son's father's blood and rights and to help uniting and fixing The North (their family's rightful land).

[Hath4]

verry good explainations of the simualrites between them. The ramsay jon comaprisons have been made for years, but I never truly saw how stannis and Roose are also oposite sides of the same coin. Right down to the fact that they both have problamtic heirs they are stuck with. Roose can not get rid of ramsay as he his the only heir, and can not have children becuase ramsay will kill them to keep his postion. just as he did to domeric. Sheirren is not cut out to rule do to her medical conditon. And at this point stannis is not having any sons so its just her. But they also are usful to their fathers. Ramsay gets the dirty jobs done, and often will nominate himself do to his love of sadism. Sheirren apeals to stannises huamntiy.

[~No One~]

I'm not sure if she will be in the finale, but it can easily be replaced by the Mountain and Qyburn scene that you mentioned. Also, I don't think Balon will die this year. I think they will use his death as a cold opening next year, which will immediately be followed by tons of ironborn stuff.

I hope not tons haha :rofl:

I also wish Balon had died in S3 e10, or S4 e01... at this point, will there be any connection to Mel's leeches once he bites the dust?

I think we will get a Cersei / Qyburn / Mountain in 10. It is really the scene that helps setting up events for season 5, cause Cersei and Qyburn relationship is one of the most important things in KL for next season.

Yup! Can't wait for S5 Cersei! She's the best Cersei there is!

[The Onion Sleight]

verry good explainations of the simualrites between them. The ramsay jon comaprisons have been made for years, but I never truly saw how stannis and Roose are also oposite sides of the same coin. Right down to the fact that they both have problamtic heirs they are stuck with. Roose can not get rid of ramsay as he his the only heir, and can not have children becuase ramsay will kill them to keep his postion. just as he did to domeric. Sheirren is not cut out to rule do to her medical conditon. And at this point stannis is not having any sons so its just her. But they also are usful to their fathers. Ramsay gets the dirty jobs done, and often will nominate himself do to his love of sadism. Sheirren apeals to stannises huamntiy.

Thank you :) (Credit is due to Strongest Of All Belwas for this awesome "Roose = anti-matter universe Stannis" thing :bowdown:)

Stannis/Jon/Roose/Ramsay always fascinated me, you can make so many interesting comparisons with all of them, Jon/Ramsay of course, Stannis/Roose is very cool (as we have seen); also the many similarities between Stannis/Jon (more than both would admit or realize) and naturally an analysis for father&son Bolton, with Roose/Ramsay.

You can find so many similarities and at the same time so many differences... They also make interesting teams / "couples" / whatever and are perfect as the two factions for the Battle of Ice and as the North's heroes and antagonists.

You're also so right about Ramsay and Shireen! The heir situation and use is for both, Stan and Roose, similar, but besides this are both, Rams and Shireen, the greatest opposites I could imagine... It will be interesting to see what will happen in the next book(s) to them, since many people believe either will Ramsay will Roose or Roose will kill Ramsay, and there are at the same many theories about Shireen's and Stannis' fate, and being sacrificed or sacrifice oneself (or saving from an sacrifice or being broken because of it) to save the other - depends on the theory.

It's also even funnier on the show since I've read about many Unsullied (or book readers) who think Show!Roose and Show!Stannis look so similar to each other :P.

I don't mean Stephen Dillane and Micheal McElhatton who definitely do NOT look similar,

and it also actually doesn't fit to the characters with Stannis' hard, rigid appearance and his sharp, harsh voice and Roose's soft, polite appearance and his silent, smooth voice; but somehow I understand this:

Here it's not really stark: http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m51gspwE7a1rxciqbo1_500.jpg

But here more: http://images.smh.com.au/2013/05/28/4443063/729-thrones.jpg

Their glances can definitely be very similar: Roose -> http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1170582/original.jpg Stannis -> http://guyism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/stannis-game-thrones.jpg

Oh, and don't forget they both have beautiful smiles: Stannis -> http://cs310416.vk.me/v310416385/a8db/7eNLzF-mgEs.jpg and http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/34700000/got-game-of-thrones-34743194-500-707.png

and Roose (the brightest smile I've ever seen) -> http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130821015101/gameofthrones/images/3/33/Roose_Psychopath_Smile.jpg and http://25.media.tumblr.com/5b99e48290a6c8b5e45d2d1b6d176076/tumblr_mnsvgehstv1qmfr3fo4_250.gif :laugh:

And I'm still wondering if it's coincidence that we have Stannis relaxing on a chair: http://www.kingslanding.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/s3recap-stannis.jpg

And Roose relaxing on a chair: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fmI56NP18lw/U08NsA-7lhI/AAAAAAAAVSE/ibeFmimhJKI/s1600/Roose+Relaxes.png XD

(Okay, I mean, this posture isn't special, but the way they both sit... :o)

Anyway, I love these pictures (especially with them chilling in their gloomy castles) and I love the characters and their actors :wub: (Wonderful casts!)

They can look similar to each other, but Michael/Roose has definitely this Putin-appearance with a small touch of Kevin Spacey when he shows his soft side, which Stephen hasn't, I think he's more attractive and quite good-looking, but both are somehow striking (oh, and Michael's voice is so beautiful!)

I just hope nobody will confuse them when it comes to the Battle of Ice! :lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And I'm still wondering if it's coincidence that we have Stannis relaxing on a chair: http://www.kingslanding.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/s3recap-stannis.jpg

(Okay, I mean, this posture isn't special, but the way they both sit... :o)

I've always loved that image of Stannis. He looks like he's in the dining room of Jurassic Park...

[sati]

Yeah I just mentally checked out at that screencap of Dillane smiling as Stannis and I'm just gonna stare at it for a while :wub:

[Frey Pies]

Yeah I just mentally checked out at that screencap of Dillane smiling as Stannis and I'm just gonna stare at it for a while :wub:

Why do you have Cersei in your profile when you like Stannis so much? :)

[Arkash]

^ Good question ! I've been wanting to ask her that for a while now but it slips my mind all the time ! ^^

Btw, cant wait for Stannis' nod after "Edd, fetch me a block !"

[Frey Pies]

^ Good question ! I've been wanting to ask her that for a while now but it slips my mind all the time ! ^^

Btw, cant wait for Stannis' nod after "Edd, fetch me a block !"

Me too! When do you think that's going to happen next season? I would go with episode 4.

[sati]

Why do you have Cersei in your profile when you like Stannis so much? :)

^ Good question ! I've been wanting to ask her that for a while now but it slips my mind all the time ! ^^

Btw, cant wait for Stannis' nod after "Edd, fetch me a block !"

Because I like her and I'm a girl (I usually have girls in my avatar)? :) I wouldn't be able to focus if Stannis is in my avatar.

I usually alternate between Cersei and Catelyn since they are my fav female characters.

[Arkash]

I'd go with episode 2. Episode 1 : Jon sends Sam and Gilly to Oldtown, maybe meets with Selyse and Melissandre. Episode 2 : "Fetch me a block."

(Aaaaand, I really hope : episode 3 : arrival of Val at the Wall with Mance's baby).

Sati : Thanks for the answer ! Yeah, anyone has to admit that damn, Cersei is so well-written !

[sati]

I'd go with episode 2. Episode 1 : Jon sends Sam and Gilly to Oldtown, maybe meets with Selyse and Melissandre. Episode 2 : "Fetch me a block."

(Aaaaand, I really hope : episode 3 : arrival of Val at the Wall with Mance's baby).

Sati : Thanks for the answer ! Yeah, anyone has to admit that damn, Cersei is so well-written !

She's just so entertaining. It's like a car crash that you can't take your eyes off. As much as I'm excited for this year's battle nothing can top drunk Cersei freaking out Sansa in Blackwater.

I hope we'll get to see Stannis' contempt for Slynt before that moment happens That was so funny in the book.

[The Onion Sleight]

I've always loved that image of Stannis. He looks like he's in the dining room of Jurassic Park...

Yeah I just mentally checked out at that screencap of Dillane smiling as Stannis and I'm just gonna stare at it for a while :wub:

I knew you both would love the pics :D

I just realized now that McElhatton is actually 18,5 years younger than Dillane :o I knew Stephen's 57, but I didn't know Michael has just turned 39 (Roose is actually in his forties, isn't he? Must be the only (slightly) younger guy on screen than in the books)... And Iwan/Ramsay has just turned 29...

Wow, when it comes to age differences, Michael could rather be Stephen's son than Iwan could be Michael's son XD (Now it's getting creepy :leaving:)

^ Good question ! I've been wanting to ask her that for a while now but it slips my mind all the time ! ^^

Btw, cant wait for Stannis' nod after "Edd, fetch me a block !"

:agree: Me too! This moment :bowdown: I want later a "Stannis approves!" meme with this nod.

Me too! When do you think that's going to happen next season? I would go with episode 4.

I'd go with episode 2. Episode 1 : Jon sends Sam and Gilly to Oldtown, maybe meets with Selyse and Melissandre. Episode 2 : "Fetch me a block."

(Aaaaand, I really hope : episode 3 : arrival of Val at the Wall with Mance's baby).

Sati : Thanks for the answer ! Yeah, anyone has to admit that damn, Cersei is so well-written !

I'd also rather say episode 2 than 4 (or we make a compromise and say 3?). Jon has to earn Stannis' respect before Stan listens to his advices and then follows them and this scene is such a wonderful moment for this.

She's just so entertaining. It's like a car crash that you can't take your eyes off. As much as I'm excited for this year's battle nothing can top drunk Cersei freaking out Sansa in Blackwater.

I hope we'll get to see Stannis' contempt for Slynt before that moment happens That was so funny in the book.

Drunken is Cersei is the worst absolute best Cersei! And Season5!Cersei will be the BEST so far :lol:

You know how much I love Stannis/Slynt and want to see that, too ;)

[AzorAhai42]

You're missing Danaerys, who will definitely be a heavily featured character. Unless they have the former in Ep 8, The Children will have her banish Jorah as well as chain the dragons :drool: in the finale, which will probably take up a lot of time during the episode (about 10 minutes at least, imo). The episode in total is 66 minutes.

Here's how I see things going down:

- Stannis offering Winterfell to Jon (4 minutes)

- Sansa final scene of the season. (4 minutes)

- Brienne and Pod being captured (3 minutes) <--- could be in episode 8 also

- Sam talking about electing Jon (3 minutes)

- King's Landing penultimate scene (4 minutes)

- Danaerys banishing Jorah (5 minutes)

- Danaerys conversation with Hazzea (2 minutes)

- Danaerys chaining up the dragons (5 minutes)

- Ramsay being legitimised (4 minutes)

- Arya boarding the ship (4 minutes)

- Jon being elected lord commander (3 minutes)

- Bran fighting white walkers, meeting Bloodraven (7 minutes)

- Tyrion Jaime/Shae/Tywin/Varys (15 minutes)

- Lady Stoneheart (3 minutes)

I REALLY hope you're wrong and there is more than 10 minutes at the Wall.

[Frey Pies]

I REALLY hope you're wrong and there is more than 10 minutes at the Wall.

I'm almost certain there won't be. 10 minutes is a long time, and, seeing as the wall has 50+ minutes already in the episode before, they are not going to give it too much time. Depending on whether they keep LC (which I think they will), we might even get about half of that.

[AzorAhai42]

I'm almost certain there won't be. 10 minutes is a long time, and, seeing as the wall has 50+ minutes already in the episode before, they are not going to give it too much time. Depending on whether they keep LC (which I think they will), we might even get about half of that.

You're probably right, I just wish you weren't. The Wall is the best storyline in my opinion.

Edit: Especially because at that point, Stannis will be there.

[Arkash]

The Stannis - Jon scene is a given. After Stannis arrival, everyone's gonna expect some Stannis / Jon interraction, they wont hold it until next year.

I really wish it takes place by Ygritte's pyre as episode 10 opening. First Melisandre comes and talks to Jon, then Stannis shows up.

[Konradsmith]

^Well we do have that shot in the first trailer of Mel's face being warped by smoke. And her background is snowy and IMO clearly Castle Black. I think that will be Ygritte's pyre and that after the burning is done, she'll tell him to come and see "the king". And then they'll have an indoor convo in Stan's kingly quarters.

[King Tommen]

^Well we do have that shot in the first trailer of Mel's face being warped by smoke. And her background is snowy and IMO clearly Castle Black. I think that will be Ygritte's pyre and that after the burning is done, she'll tell him to come and see "the king". And then they'll have an indoor convo in Stan's kingly quarters.

Prediction: This will be first scene of finale where Stannis offers up Winterfell and will be 4-5 minutes (the upcoming LC election will be mentioned). Then later in the episode, they'll cut back for the actual LC election which will be heavily truncated with Sam probably giving a stirring speech so that Jon is elected ahead of favorite Slynt. This will be another 4-5 minutes and then we're done with Jon's storyline for the season.

Done and done.

[Konradsmith]

^I second that. Ygritte's burning would be a very good episode opening, since the battle and ep. nine's events will likely be on everyone's minds.