THOSE WHO SING

[Eira Seren]

[snip]

OBSERVATION 1: “DEAD MEN SING NO SONGS”

From the very first page of the Prologue in AGoT, Martin places “death” and “song” together and in a prominent location. Both words are in dialogue written for three men of the Night’s Watch tracking wildlings beyond the Wall.

During a heated discussion about whether dead wildlings are truly dead, Will and Royce reveal a myth from their youths:

"My mother told me that dead men sing no songs," he [Will] put in.

"My wet nurse said the same thing, Will," Royce replied. "Never believe anything you hear at a woman's tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead." His voice echoed, too loud in the twilit forest.

I point this out before visiting the “children” since these singers are associated with “song”, yet the first mention of song in the series is linked to the dead.

Of course, Will’s remark is innocent enough, and he may be invoking humor to ease the stress among the rangers. However, the fact that it is placed on the first page of the first novel of the Series is more than a happy coincidence.

LC Mormont said that the CotF could speak with the dead, so perhaps the wights are the upshot of using magic to communicate with the no-longer-living.

The wights are the dead walking, not talking. If they cannot talk, how could they sing? In order to sing, they need to breathe. So from what readers learn later, the wights have no voice singly or collectively. Perhaps it is a voice they seek.

If the dead no longer “breathe”, they have no voice.

ColdHands does not breathe, yet he speaks. Is he an exception? More later, now the children.

Observation 2: “THE SINGERS of the SONG of EARTH”

Martin titles his series “A Song of Ice and Fire”, and he arranges songs, verses, ballads, instrumentals, and sounds to set a rhythm or beat that compel the story forward while complementing action in the moment of the series.

A group most-associated with voices gifted in song are the “children of the forest”.

Leaf affirms, “The First Men named us children,” the little woman said. “The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years.”

• Martin achieves a tone of superciliousness in Leaf’s clipped comments to Bran and Meera. She rejects the name that men have given to her and her like, which Leaf implies is an insult that mocks the children’s diminutive size.

• Bran dislikes when he is called crippled, so perhaps he relates to their umbrage.

• Or not. Meera and Bran take it upon themselves to make up names for the singers which helps them in their daily dealings with the singers.

• “Bran and Meera made names for those who sing the song of the earth: Ash and Leaf and Scales, Blackknife and Snowylocks and Coals”.

• The “names” are based on their appearances.

• Even though Bran and Meera mean no disrespect when they impress the ways of men upon the children, assigning them a label like Leaf and Snowylocks even after they had been told of the singers’ aversion to epithets.

• Bran wonders what the singers think of their new names, but only Leaf knows the language that Bran speaks, and Leaf probably finds her name Leaf a shallow name given to her because of her distinctive leafy attire.

“Those who sing the song of earth”

• The singers are obviously a proud group who take their identity very seriously.

• In the True Tongue, their names are long with lovely sound.

• But “those” is a plural pronoun, and indefinite for it refers to no one individually with an honorific.

• “Those” also is a vague reference, because it has no antecedent for clarity.

• It seems the singers are “nameless” as individuals, but collectively, they share one name.

• The subtext is in Leaf’s delivery and reader inference: ‘giants [dimwits] and men [dimwits] called us stupid names because we liked trees and were small. Ha Ha! We sang the song of earth 10,000 years in a really hard language called The True Tongue way before men even uttered their first words of the Old Tongue!”

At one point, Bran is told that even the ravens were smart enough to speak the really hard language that the humans forgot, but the ravens still “remember” – their bright black eyes “hold secrets”.

Leaf and her people have grounds for resentment. But Meera makes an observation:

“You speak the Common Tongue now.”

Leaf quips:

“For him. The Bran boy.”

• Speaking Bran’s language is a tolerable duty for Leaf and she does so only because of Bran’s inability to speak or comprehend the language of those who sing. She has no great love for the words men speak.

• Then Leaf establishes her credentials, revealing her long years studying.

• Leaf calls Bran “boy”: she does not use his proper name. Since Leaf and her singers prefer being addressed collectively, it makes sense that she would not use his proper name.

• But – boy is general and impersonal. Leaf is certainly not “warm and fuzzy”. She is “testing the waters”, keeping an emotional distance from the boy so she and he can have a prosperous working relationship.

“ I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”

“Two hundred years?” said Meera.

The child smiled. “Men, they are the children.”

• Leaf is boastful – she knows more of men than they know of themselves after 200 years of watching, listening, and learning.

• Unlike men in general, Leaf took the time and applied her energies to the pursuit of knowledge.

• Leaf is a wee bit smug when Meera asks in disbelief “200 years?” Depending on how the line is delivered, Leaf’s smile might convey just how silly men are who choose to label others in degrees of shallowness.

• Leaf has a bit of attitude when she points out that men, not them, are the children – not full grown, not mature, not wise.

“Do you have a name?” asked Bran.

“When I am needing one.”

• An early chapter in AGoT describes the old gods of the north as “nameless” and “faceless”, so those who are the choristers avoid emulating “men” and claiming an identity.

• Leaf’s snappy response is “so Arya!”

• They are not vain; mark their armor, sticks, leaves, and woven vines. They carry unassuming weapons, and their issues with the First Men are entrenched in their right to worship their gods in safety and in peace, and their totems or idols are cherished in the core of their beliefs. The “squirrel”/”Child” demand respect from invaders who steal their lands, destroy their homes, and blaspheme their gods.

• And in whose blood flows the very same blood that nourished the bodies of these “First” Men. Stark!

• Why “First”? Some of those who sing may very well resent the presumptive appropriation of this moniker– yes?

• Could be these smart singers with their elaborate network have things all sewn up.

Bran reveals his deep respect for the CotF:

“Though the men of the Seven Kingdoms might call them the children of the forest, Leaf and her people were far from childlike. Little wise men of the forest would have been closer”.

• Leaf’s tale of hiking 200 miles brought to mind “The Wandering Jew”, which I am sure has been mentioned by other scholars.

• Sweet natured Bran admires these little wise folk of the forest. Leaf is not without an acute perceptivity, and Bran’s youth makes him an easy victim to manipulate.

• Worse yet, Bran’s first association with Leaf is his own sister Arya whom Bran fears may be dead. Leaf sings sad songs. The Knight in the “old” Bran may aspire to chivalry.

OBSERVATION 3: SONG

[snip]

Evita! Nice to see another one of your essays! I enjoyed the idea that the wights are cut off from singing songs. Also, the comparison between the Singers and the White Walkers; the Singers songs sound so lovely in comparison to the 'crackling' language of the WW.

[wolfmaid7]

Evita! Nice to see another one of your essays! I enjoyed the idea that the wights are cut off from singing songs. Also, the comparison between the Singers and the White Walkers; the Singers songs sound so lovely in comparison to the 'crackling' language of the WW.

I brought this up in my OP but what Will heard as Crackling ice may sound different in the ears of someone like Jon.He may hear the music in it.

[wolfmaid7]

Also: This is a nice excerpt from th World Book concerning the Water Wizards of Rhoyner.Notice

"For many centuries the Rhoynar lived in peace. Though many a savage people dwelt in the hills and forests around Mother Rhoyne, all knew better than to molest the river folk. And the Rhoynar themselves showed little interest in expansion; the river was their home, their mother, and their god, and few of them wished to dwell beyond the sound of her eternal song."

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Also: This is a nice excerpt from th World Book concerning the Water Wizards of Rhoyner.Notice

"For many centuries the Rhoynar lived in peace. Though many a savage people dwelt in the hills and forests around Mother Rhoyne, all knew better than to molest the river folk. And the Rhoynar themselves showed little interest in expansion; the river was their home, their mother, and their god, and few of them wished to dwell beyond the sound of her eternal song."

http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/World_of_Ice_and_Fire_Excerpt_The_Rhoynar

That's a beautiful line :) Home calls to her people. Drogon is home for Dany and Ghost is home for Jon. Jon basically says this when he chooses to stay at the Wall after looking at Ghost.

[Batbob45]

Patchface song do come true.

[Alia of the knife]

Paiute Medicine Song

Now all my singing Dreams are gone,

But none knows where they have fled

Nor by what trails they have left me.

Return, O Dreams of my heart,

And sing in the Summer twilight,

By the creek and the almond thicket

And the field that is bordered with lupins!

Now is my refuge to seek

In the hollow of friendly shoulders,

Since the singing is stopped in my pulse

And the earth and the sky refuse me;

Now must I hold by the eyes of a friend

When the high white stars are unfriendly.

Over-sweet is the refuge for trusting;

Return and sing, O my Dreams,

In the dewy and palpitant pastures,

Till the love of living awakes

And the strength of the hills to uphold me.

The Children of the Forest:

"They were a people with a deep connection to the land. The children wielded obsidian weapons and bows in battle, but also used powerful magic.

Legends say the children of the forest were gifted with supernatural powers and magic; having power over the beasts of the wood, the ability to wear an animal’s skin, the skill to create music so beautiful as to bring tears to the eyes of any who heard it, the greensight ability (although maesters believe that the greensight was not magic, simply another kind of knowledge) and the ability to speak to the dead.

It was the children who carved the faces on the weirwoods to keep watch over the woods. They believe that their wisdom had something to do with the faces in the trees. The children of the forest believed that the weirwood trees were gods, and when they died they became a part of them." -Wiki

(And finally getting the time to read tPatQ, I can see why Nettles might be taken for "dragonseed," but, given Brans comparisons of Leaf and Arya, and then Nettles description, I'm going with my own crackpottery that Nettles has some Stark and CotF in her background while the Starks could have some CotF as well as Wildling), :cool4:

[kissdbyfire]

I read something eerily similar to this by another poster here... weird.

Actually, just saw it's already been posted here too.

Authors Notes: Here is a piece I wrote months ago dealing with the Children of the Forest. Maybe it will find a home here. I have spent over a year researching the VOICE and its adjuncts.

THE CHILDREN OF THE FOREST

<snip>

[wolfmaid7]

That's a beautiful line :) Home calls to her people. Drogon is home for Dany and Ghost is home for Jon. Jon basically says this when he chooses to stay at the Wall after looking at Ghost.

Paiute Medicine Song

Now all my singing Dreams are gone,

But none knows where they have fled

Nor by what trails they have left me.

Return, O Dreams of my heart,

And sing in the Summer twilight,

By the creek and the almond thicket

And the field that is bordered with lupins!

Now is my refuge to seek

In the hollow of friendly shoulders,

Since the singing is stopped in my pulse

And the earth and the sky refuse me;

Now must I hold by the eyes of a friend

When the high white stars are unfriendly.

Over-sweet is the refuge for trusting;

Return and sing, O my Dreams,

In the dewy and palpitant pastures,

Till the love of living awakes

And the strength of the hills to uphold me.

The Children of the Forest:

"They were a people with a deep connection to the land. The children wielded obsidian weapons and bows in battle, but also used powerful magic.

Legends say the children of the forest were gifted with supernatural powers and magic; having power over the beasts of the wood, the ability to wear an animal’s skin, the skill to create music so beautiful as to bring tears to the eyes of any who heard it, the greensight ability (although maesters believe that the greensight was not magic, simply another kind of knowledge) and the ability to speak to the dead.

It was the children who carved the faces on the weirwoods to keep watch over the woods. They believe that their wisdom had something to do with the faces in the trees. The children of the forest believed that the weirwood trees were gods, and when they died they became a part of them."

(And finally getting the time to read tPatQ, I can see why Nettles might be taken for "dragonseed," but, given Brans comparisons of Leaf and Arya, and then Nettles description, I'm going with my own crackpottery that Nettles has some Stark and CotF in her background while the Starks could have some CotF as well as Wildling), :cool4:

Nettles could have been Leaf,seeing as Leaf said she was born in the time of the Dragon.Further,being knowledgeable about the "songs of earth" it may have been how she was able to coax Sheepstealer.It's seems clear that if you know the Song of a thing,you can control a thing.

Maester Childer's Winter Knights, or the Legends and Lineage of the Starks of Winterfell, contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time that Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children of the forest in raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech which was described as sounding like a song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of children is a tale in itself, and not worth the repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard everyday, and probably shared much of its beauty

I read something eerily similar to this by another poster here... weird.

Actually, just saw it's already been posted here too.

Yes that is Evita's handywork.

[Alia of the knife]

Nettles could have been Leaf,seeing as Leaf said she was born in the time of the Dragon.Further,being knowledgeable about the "songs of earth" it may have been how she was able to coax Sheepstealer.It's seems clear that if you know the Song of a thing,you can control a thing.

Yes that is Evita's handywork.

Yeah Evita!!! :bowdown:

On Nettles and Leaf, that is true too, but the only thing is that Leafs description sounds too "inhuman" to pass unless she was using glamour. The way Leaf is described, and the picture in the Wiki, she looks a LOT like my cat Nina and with the same attitude. :P

http://web.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/1208132222.jpg?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=544761&part=2

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608018875073626783&pid=15.1

But, I definitely agree that everything points to the mystery of "song," as an element of control and if Nettles was Leaf, then her "singing" may have been the linchpin in taming Sheepstealer.

I just have a feeling that the Starks, as much as I love them, were just as proliferate as the Targaryens.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah Evita!!! :bowdown:

On Nettles and Leaf, that is true too, but the only thing is that Leafs description sounds too "inhuman" to pass unless she was using glamour. The way Leaf is described, and the picture in the Wiki, she looks a LOT like my cat Nina and with the same attitude. :P

http://web.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/1208132222.jpg?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=544761&part=2

But, I definitely agree that everything points to the mystery of "song," as an element of control and if Nettles was Leaf, then her "singing" may have been the linchpin in taming Sheepstealer.

I just have a feeling that the Starks, as much as I love them, were just as proliferate as the Targaryens.

I think there is no way at all ever that Leaf is Nettles. It doesnt make sense.

[wolfmaid7]

I think there is no way at all ever that Leaf is Nettles. It doesnt make sense.

That one is definitely cracking the pot.....lol

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah Evita!!! :bowdown:

On Nettles and Leaf, that is true too, but the only thing is that Leafs description sounds too "inhuman" to pass unless she was using glamour. The way Leaf is described, and the picture in the Wiki, she looks a LOT like my cat Nina and with the same attitude. :P

http://web.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/1208132222.jpg?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=544761&part=2

But, I definitely agree that everything points to the mystery of "song," as an element of control and if Nettles was Leaf, then her "singing" may have been the linchpin in taming Sheepstealer.

I just have a feeling that the Starks, as much as I love them, were just as proliferate as the Targaryens.

I've been looking for a link between the Starks and the Targs because its too coincidental that both these families have "shared notes" with creatures that Sing.The only thing i can come up with is Esoss. The First Men originated from there and Valyria(Where the targs are from) was a city in Esoss.

[Alia of the knife]

I've been looking for a link between the Starks and the Targs because its too coincidental that both these families have "shared notes" with creatures that Sing.The only thing i can come up with is Esoss. The First Men originated from there and Valyria(Where the targs are from) was a city in Esoss.

I've become very much intrigued on the origins of Starks warging abilities, which then leads to their own innate abilities with beasts, and given what the Wiki says about tCotF, I'm suspicious.

Its either a little like the story "Cat People" where children were sacrificed to the cats and the souls grew inside them to become "werecats," or there was some cross breeding between the Starks with tCotF.

From the Wiki:

" Legends say the children of the forest were gifted with supernatural powers and magic; having power over the beasts of the wood, the ability to wear an animal’s skin,..."

[MoIaF]

I've been looking for a link between the Starks and the Targs because its too coincidental that both these families have "shared notes" with creatures that Sing.The only thing i can come up with is Esoss. The First Men originated from there and Valyria(Where the targs are from) was a city in Esoss.

I think that's the best explanation (having them both originate in Essos) for why these two families (races?) have special abilities. I imagine there were other magical people ( Rhoynar ) who also possessed magical abilities yet there abilities seem to be largely lost. Whatever happened these families somehow made sure to pass down their abilities throughout thousands of years.

Why was it so important for them to insure that their abilities would continue to exist, was it because they knew another Long Night would come again? Also, interestingly enough both of these families are (where) in the brink of "extinction". Ned and his children were the last Starks and Dany and Viserys were the last Targaryens (plus Jon).

[wolfmaid7]

I've become very much intrigued on the origins of Starks warging abilities, which then leads to their own innate abilities with beasts, and given what the Wiki says about tCotF, I'm suspicious.

Its either a little like the story "Cat People" where children were sacrificed to the cats and the souls grew inside them to become "werecats," or there was some cross breeding between the Starks with tCotF.

From the Wiki:

" Legends say the children of the forest were gifted with supernatural powers and magic; having power over the beasts of the wood, the ability to wear an animal’s skin,..."

I am dubious about the legends of the COTF power,there description makes them well suited for the cave system and for a nocturnal existence and something bothers me about the faces the carve in the Weirwood trees since the Dawn Age.Why do the faces look like men and not like the COTF? Its a little thing,but the Singers(all of them) are apt to singing various songsand i think that some of the First Men were vulnerable to them.

I think that's the best explanation (having them both originate in Essos) for why these two families (races?) have special abilities. I imagine there were other magical people ( Rhoynar ) who also possessed magical abilities yet there abilities seem to be largely lost. Whatever happened these families somehow made sure to pass down their abilities throughout thousands of years.

Why was it so important for them to insure that their abilities would continue to exist, was it because they knew another Long Night would come again? Also, interestingly enough both of these families are (where) in the brink of "extinction". Ned and his children were the last Starks and Dany and Viserys were the last Targaryens (plus Jon).

Yeah to me that is very strange it is the one thing that makes them able to sung too.

[Alia of the knife]

I am dubious about the legends of the COTF power,there description makes them well suited for the cave system and for a nocturnal existence and something bothers me about the faces the carve in the Weirwood trees since the Dawn Age.Why do the faces look like men and not like the COTF? Its a little thing,but the Singers(all of them) are apt to singing various songsand i think that some of the First Men were vulnerable to them.

Yeah to me that is very strange it is the one thing that makes them able to sung too.

That is a good point, and I wonder about the other Northern families like the Mormonts ~did they warg at one time too?

But, I do like the Essos link.

[Eira Seren]

I am dubious about the legends of the COTF power,there description makes them well suited for the cave system and for a nocturnal existence and something bothers me about the faces the carve in the Weirwood trees since the Dawn Age.Why do the faces look like men and not like the COTF? Its a little thing,but the Singers(all of them) are apt to singing various songsand i think that some of the First Men were vulnerable to them.

Yeah to me that is very strange it is the one thing that makes them able to sung too.

I'm thinking that the First Men carved the faces, but instead of using the COTF as the models, they imagined that the old gods looked like First Men. Kindof like the way European Christians imagined Christ and Madonna figures in their artwork. . . most of them look European! Yet I agree, the FM must have been tied to the COTF through the songs and through skinchanging abilities.

That is a good point, and I wonder about the other Northern families like the Mormonts ~did they warg at one time too?

But, I do like the Essos link.

I am sure the Mormonts used to skinchange bears, and perhaps still hold the potential :)

[wolfmaid7]

That is a good point, and I wonder about the other Northern families like the Mormonts ~did they warg at one time too?

But, I do like the Essos link.

If you take Tourmond's story into consideration ewww and Lady Mormont,maybe or it could be propaganda who knows.Usually,the theories go that the Skinchanging abilitites originated with the COTF.I think there is something weird about that legend,if we look at the COTF their apt at camo.There very description blends in with their surroundings of the dark background.Why have that ability?I think like their ability is much like the WWs that blend with their surrounding. I could be wrong but maybe in the comming books Leaf and they would talk about Skinchanging beasts some more.

I'm thinking that the First Men carved the faces, but instead of using the COTF as the models, they imagined that the old gods looked like First Men. Kindof like the way European Christians imagined Christ and Madonna figures in their artwork. . . most of them look European! Yet I agree, the FM must have been tied to the COTF through the songs and through skinchanging abilities.

I am sure the Mormonts used to skinchange bears, and perhaps still hold the potential :)

I can see this as being the truth and the knowledge lost because the facial expressions and descriptions seems pretty human.Again something seems very off in the telling,but i believe that the Singers ability to connect to their counterparts through their shared song may have been the point of contact.

[Eira Seren]

I've become very much intrigued on the origins of Starks warging abilities, which then leads to their own innate abilities with beasts, and given what the Wiki says about tCotF, I'm suspicious.

Its either a little like the story "Cat People" where children were sacrificed to the cats and the souls grew inside them to become "werecats," or there was some cross breeding between the Starks with tCotF.

From the Wiki:

" Legends say the children of the forest were gifted with supernatural powers and magic; having power over the beasts of the wood, the ability to wear an animal’s skin,..."

:) You've hit the mark!

If you take Tourmond's story into consideration ewww and Lady Mormont,maybe or it could be propaganda who knows.Usually,the theories go that the Skinchanging abilitites originated with the COTF.I think there is something weird about that legend,if we look at the COTF their apt at camo.There very description blends in with their surroundings of the dark background.Why have that ability?I think like their ability is much like the WWs that blend with their surrounding. I could be wrong but maybe in the comming books Leaf and they would talk about Skinchanging beasts some more.

I can see this as being the truth and the knowledge lost because the facial expressions and descriptions seems pretty human.Again something seems very off in the telling,but i believe that the Singers ability to connect to their counterparts through their shared song may have been the point of contact.

The songs are also said by Bran to be quite beautiful. As a point of contact, I wonder if the First Men were drawn to the Singers because of the beauty. . .

[wolfmaid7]

:) You've hit the mark!

The songs are also said by Bran to be quite beautiful. As a point of contact, I wonder if the First Men were drawn to the Singers because of the beauty. . .

You know that is an excellent question,and i believe this to be true.Imagine in a first contact situation where language is a barrier a magical song( a universal language) could do the trick and in effect create sympathetic humans in the camp of the FM.Those you were sensitive to the songs of the Direwolves and also the trees. I can also see how this could have been a problem because it could be viewed as a type of infiltration by the otherside.