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[Book Spoilers] EP407 Discussion


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I'm finding it hard to get a handle on Cersei's characterization. This episode she was in full-on villain mode, swishing her way through dead bodies to evilly smile at evil Ser Gregor, while Oberyn told the story about her wishing Tyrion was dead as a baby and almost ripping Tyrion's wienie off. Other episodes she's been the same Sad Mother we've been getting for the last few seasons.

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It was a great episode overall. I'm having a tough time deciding what deserves an emmy more: Tyrion's courtroom meltdown or The Great Hot Pie Gravy Monologue. Really wasn't feeling it with my first impression of the New Mountain, but as others have stated, that isn't something I'll have to deal with too long anyway. The Mel and Selyse scene was intriguing, but the Dany/Daario foreplay was a yawn (and you might well expect the God of Tits and Wine to say that, but I believe my point stands...).

Oh, and for those of you screaming with righteous indignation, claiming that Only Cat -> Your Sister was a middle finger from D&D directed at you and those like you? By all gods old and new, I wish it was true. If they had put the God of Tits and Wine in charge of this series, I'd soak in your tears the way Melisandre soaked in that bathtub...

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The scene with Oberyn and Tyrion was the absolute best. Also liked T and Jaime. Not happy with the scene between T and Bronn, though . . . it kept Bronn's 'likeability' intact, which I think is completely undeserved.

Am frustrated with the short, choppy scenes we keep getting from the Wall. I know it'll get the whole show 4:09, but still . . .

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I will say, not that it's terribly important, but Bronn's book line about icing Falyse really didn't work for the character as developed in the show. He's been made a bit too much of a cheerful rogue. There was a kind of nastiness to the book version that is just absent from Flynn's portrayal of him.

Edited by Colonel Green
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No biggie but it would have been so simple to combine LF's line to say something like:

"Only your sister"

Cut to her shocked face

"Only Cat"

Lysa go bye fly.

I nominate you to write for the show. I would have preferred Only Cat to Only your sister, though I can appreciate why they made the change. However, your version is better,

but the mountain isn't supposed to be cast for his great acting ability, is he?

I would prefer the Mountain not to speak at all. Makes him more mysterious and scary.

Caught one bit of information...Walder Frey is Lord of Rivverun on the show. Makes sense.

I guess we won't get Genna Lannister and her Frey husband. Makes sense for character consolidation purposes but I really like her.

I got up and got myself something to drink during the credits and turned out the lights.

It's really not that big of a deal at this point in the season, is it?

It's sloppy and shows poor attention to detail.

Sansa scene was great until Robert shows up. Robert seems pretty genuine in his mistake trying to make a moon door. Sansa has a right to be upset but she seemed only the slightly less childish party here. After that it was all decent, would have preferred "Only Cat" but not a big deal.

I agree. Sansa in the show is older but reacted like a child. I would have preferred that Sweetrobin deliberately attack the castle.

The thought that Ser Gregor would use a real sword at practice without wearing armour is ludicrous. Accidents do happen... I guess they needed their quota of nudity. And why do we get full frontals of women in the series but never of the men, just asses (although some have been very fine asses. But...)

LOL--was that practice? I thought he was executing people.

they had the perfect chance for tyrion to talk about tysha, but they didnt have him bring her up. "i sould have never believed that a whore could love me." he should have said. , "i should have learned my lesson the first time"

im starting to think that they are dropping that whole thing.

yes, that was a missed opportunity.

Ok, now for my thoughts.

I liked the Jaime Tyrion scene. In the books, I liked wondering why Jaime was in the background at the trial and didn't stick up for Tyrion or even visit him before the trial by combat. However, this works too.

Not sure how I feel about comedienne Mel, but I do like the reveal of Selyse's jealousy and the hint that Mel may try to burn SHireen

I liked that they kept Oberyn's visit to Casterly Rock and Cersei's cruelty. However, I couldn't understand why they changed it so his father borugh tthem there. That seemed unnecessary.

I'm bored with Arya-hound. Sorry, but it had to be said.

I loved the Dany-Jorah exchange. FInally, some good lines for Jorah! But I kinda liked where they were going with ruthless Dany.

Sansa scenes. I agree that they were too rushed, especially for an episode called Mockingbird. Also, was it just me or did Sansa allow Petyr to kiss her for far too long??? I was not thrilled with Sophie's acting (which had been exceptional in some episodes) but she seemed very stiff. I thought the kiss was a little too abrupt. Having him help her with the castle and kiss her somewhat spontaneously would have made more sense. As someone mentioned above, having Lysa reveal more about the abortions/miscarriages would have been good.

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Any ideas on what happens with LF? I mean, there's no Marillion...

Did anyone else notice the way Bronn describes he could potentially take Gregor is almost exactly how it ends up playing out for Oberyn? "Dance around until he's so tired from hacking at me he drops his sword. Get him off his feet somehow. But one misstep and I'm dead."

he says as much in the books too. :)

Edited by SnowOther
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I'm finding it hard to get a handle on Cersei's characterization. This episode she was in full-on villain mode, swishing her way through dead bodies to evilly smile at evil Ser Gregor, while Oberyn told the story about her wishing Tyrion was dead as a baby and almost ripping Tyrion's wienie off. Other episodes she's been the same Sad Mother we've been getting for the last few seasons.

Even though a lot of book-readers decry that they've muted Cersei's character a bit, if you talk to unsullied watchers of the show they all think she is an evil mega-bitch, which is basically what she is in the books. So, I think they've just decided to pull back on showing every scene with her as this nutty evil woman and give us a few more shades, but the effect is the same. I don't know anyone that ever sympathizes for Cersei.

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Oh, lets not forget "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother."

The line that made me laugh the most in the whole series was from the Davos chapter:

"Lord Wyman was looking down at Rhaegar as if he were a roach in need of a hard heel"

My favorite chapter in the series hands down. Pure awesome from front to back. Willa's outburst in defense of Stannis. Davos calling BS on the Freys: "What would a Frey know of honor?" "Set Jared I name you liar."

Especially when you get to the Theon chapter when Wyman lies to the Frey's in front of the Boltons and tells them how fond he has grown of the Frey's at White Harbor especially Rhaegar.

Lol calling Robb Stark a vile dog in front of Wyman. I bet Rhaegar did not die well. No sir.

The North remembers.

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More of Lysa's back story would have fleshed out the character from a cardboard cut out crazy lady into a character with motivations and an understandable grievance. However as they cut out all the Hoster stuff I guess it made sense to cut out the Lysa backstory too.

I can understand why people are upset by the loss of "only Cat" but show only watchers would have missed it. My other unsullied half still can't remember Dany's name never mind Cat, whose role in the series was minor compared to the books.

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Did anyone else notice the way Bronn describes he could potentially take Gregor is almost exactly how it ends up playing out for Oberyn? "Dance around until he's so tired from hacking at me he drops his sword. Get him off his feet somehow. But one misstep and I'm dead."

Yes when I originally read it. <?>

I can't take credit for noticing it because Tyrion pointed it out.

Edited by rmholt
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What has happened to this series?

Why hasn't Stannis recruited any Companies of Sell Swords once going Braavos then travelling to Esos. Building up his depleted army once being loaned a vast sum of gold to achieve victory from the Iron bank. Were we so stupid to assume that the Lannisters forge gold? Because their last gold mine has run out, not any of the other associated ores, mined alongside gold. Like copper, iron, tin, etc, these ores which are turned into gold/currency. The iron Bank will lend to Stannis even though there has been no formal defaults from the new king Tommen or from his council. Previously when ignored by an angry mother in time of immediate war the battle of the Black Water. How does this new event from Iron bank, prevent further interaction with the Night's Watch in later plot. The Wildlings settling in the gift, Castles maintained, Food stores, Ships. Stannis is now preummed that other banker, who will loan for the crisis upcoming? He rererucited Salandor Saan navy, presumed as still docking at DragonStone for payment. Oops forgotten, for this other attempted schemes hole.

What is wrong with Deanery's acting? So rarely is she seen as subtle, seductive, in much of a manner of the stately elegant queen. Often perceived through speech as an angry kid, yes she has dragons. Her lines in expression have mostly been forced when showing her entirely as argumentative, when she is coy, sounding childlike with goofish smirks. Almost in duplication of a Cersei whom has a reason to be angry and vehement. Although Deanery's looks pretty and smiles, sure, but that is not really the entire point.

Where in Meereen is the opposite of the Westerosi Throne Chamber in holding hosting court, that is entirely empty, devoid of anyone but her own guardsmen. The queen's private quarters looked like a japanese bubble apartment, being a tiny little bedroom with a futon. Not that 4 poster, luxurious penthouse, housing scenic views of the entire city, with adjacent water gardens, handmaidens, unsullied guards, bodyguard bloodriders.

Having one of the best fight scenes in Game of Thrones currently with some nobody cutthroat in the prior episode. When removing the remaining deserter's of the Night's Watch from Castor's Keep. So great a fight in fact, the cut throat didn't even cut a throat, previous to this epic melee when holding onto a hostage.

The Whitewalkers who were at the Fist of the First Men. Now are resorting to Baby Knapping to replenish their numbers. Over the huge army seen previously which forced a retreat of the Night's Watch back into Castor's. Further making Castor's Keep immune to any later annihilation from offering baby sacrifices to appease. Because the White army has not been scavenging the corpse trail leading back to Castor's.

Wildlings are roaming free outside of Castle Black unchecked because they cannot read any Sign Posts, scouting from Mole Town, in the previous raid which informed the Watch via the boy. Observing any Night's Watch forces within the Black Castle. Attacking at the best opportunity when fighting men are out ranging. Those same men of the Watch have not netrualised the immediate Wildling threat. Because they are in fear, worried about a fight coming with Mance's Wildling army. This fight will happen upon any events, depsite of any pointless information obtained from deserters.

Everybody Killed Jeffrey. Who really killed Jeffrey was it Lady Tyrell, or Littlefinger? Not the Imp though. These two separate groups and motives, have said explictaly they did it. Cersei has had conversation with Margaery accepting the loss of her little monster, how quick to remarry her other son, whom she cannot guard from the Imp's guilt.

Is Esos really accross the Chunnel close enough to be housing Vary's little Birds. These Bird's have been shown as everywhere from White Harbour, Iron Islands etc. Not taking the years to travel to and fro between. When showing those same years at times throughout the season for Tommen to age into an adolescent, Arya to gain the pounds, Dragons to fledge.They have often been in the next sceens ordered to act out some grand Westrosi schemes. Now against Deanery's. Why is their information being brought to light of huge stately importance to the small council's present state. With no other real immediate issues addressed such as budget, present conflict, etc, small mention of ships. Because accross the chunnel is a queen who has dragons, quickly send more spies to what? Manipulate Jorah into betrayal, inform of Selemy but cmon now, Vary's later role was what exactly?

Asha, Theon, and the Bastard. Asha's grand quest to capture her brother Theon ending in tears. Asha was just at the Iron Islands beforehand, being chided not to get her brother from her father, the King of the Ironborn. Asha has not managed to capture Reek. Because he is needed at Moat Calin being ordered by Roose Bolton to be used to retake previously, now after present events a reward. Asha could not knock Reek out, carrrying his hobbling husk when attempting escape, forgetting to silence the dogs barking, alerting the guards. There was a plot hole in the rescue attempt, the Ironborn were trapped said by her guardsmen there is only one way in. What are her options now? Try again, after claiming that Reek is no longer her brother? Try to kill the Bastard at a different opportunity, because forgotten during attempted rescue? Disappear again back into Torhen Square which is already occupied by Ironborn, shown from the Bastard's ruse with Theon prior? Go and get more men whom she didn't bring on her quest? Go home with his tail between her legs?

The Imp has been absolutely moppy outside of his haircut, this entire season. Although shown to be happier in jail with Poddrick, now back to being moppy again. His speech at the trial was outstandingly epic though and with given congradulation. The great actor playing this role having so much persona in former seasons when winning award, is so unnaturally glum of late, desipte any affecting circumstances within this show.

The Red Priestess setting her sights on Shireen. Is this an assumed spoiler for her next sacrifice, in some seasons away build up, that because grey scale is not attributed to R'hllor Shireen must be burned for King's Blood? Why is this information of any particular note, seen in plot for a few episodes of late?

I would be here all day, litterally, if continuing picking apart the lack of details shown within so many sceens. Examples. Showing blood/wax magically appearing on the Bastard prior to the rescue attempt. A shepherd boy not being burned from a tsunami of dragon fire on top of him. The most pointlessly ridiculous crucifixion executions seen any where on TV, serving only to force out hammy moaning groans, which did not replicate a sign post, rather would topple escape from the ways shown.

I was hoping for some sense of explanation to other points listed above?

Edited by Dipsy
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For the record:

I've reached out to the German dubbing guys to get 'Only Cat', Doran/Oberyn's mother, and Tanda Stokeworth back into the show in the German version. Asha is in there, too, so hopefully this will work.

On Lysa:

I really missed Sheepshit. It would be great for both Littlefinger's and Lysa's back story to go there, and have the wedding there, to illustrate how much Littlefinger resents his origin. That really shows in his talks with Sansa while there are 'at home'... And there was really no need to rush into AFfC territory.

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I love watching with my unsullied brother. Until this episode he hasn't had too many questions about who is which character, and what are the motives behind the things they do. In fact it has always surprised me how much he picked up from the shows without me saying a thing. This episode was different though. He couldn't keep Daario and Oberyn strait... the Hound and the Mountain took explanation, that they are brothers... from ep 5 he didn't get Bran's warging ability... he didn't know Daenerys' name... and he needed me to explain Lysa's history with Littlefinger to understand her line about her father, her husband, and her sister all dead because they came between her and LF. He also complained that so many of the names are the similar or the same, and that some characters are referred to by multiple names.

Really, I think the show has done an excellent job overall, but maybe they could figure out a way to help unsullied show fans to remember characters and understand some of their backstories a little better? My brother is no mental slouch, so I figure if he's starting to have trouble following things, probably others are too. When I read the books, I overlooked a lot of detail and became confused with all the characters because it was too much to absorb in one reading. Second time around opened all kinds of rich new detail because I had a basic idea of who the main players are. Maybe the shows will work like that on the unsullied?

ETA: Not really criticizing. I certainly couldn't have done better. Just wondering if there might be something the show writers could do, and thought it worth mentioning. :dunno:

Edited by Dolorous Lothston
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