GOODKIND X: Lemmings of Discord

[Werthead]

Not really, because it's , except the wall is made of solid, lame iron.

[Snowbeat]

Not really, because it's , except the wall is made of solid, lame iron.

And moral clarity. You can't forget the moral celery. Clarity.

[Lightsnake]

Wert, just take her down a peg....Goodkind's logic is so easily debunked.

[Chicken/Not a Chicken]

Wert, just take her down a peg....Goodkind's logic is so easily debunked.

Nah, doesn't work. They just ignore the blatant flaws you point out and start telling you that you don't understand because you are blind. Open your eyes Wert! SEE THE TRUTH!! HAVE SOME MORAL CELERY!!

[Elrostar]

Nah, doesn't work. They just ignore the blatant flaws you point out and start telling you that you don't understand because you are blind. Open your eyes Wert! SEE THE TRUTH!! HAVE SOME MORAL CELERY!!

It really all does boil down to moral celery, doesn't it?

I'm not sure what she's complaining about, Wert, though. Is she unhappy that you're pointing out that TG is kind of... umm... how shall I put this delicately... full of shit? I mean, sure he gets some basic facts wrong, doesn't understand any of the terms he throws around when he's going on his lengthy tirades about why his work is art and how he writes novels and not simple fantasy and how people who don't like his stuff hate life (and probably freedom, although I'm not sure he's ever explicitly said that).

So apparently taking his words out of context (although I'm not sure what context they really should be read in) is just mean and spiteful and rude and... umm... you know, not nice.

Also, I'm intrigued by this... "Truthiness" concept that she's talking about. It sounds so... quaint. And so very straight out of something Stephen Colbert might say.

Anyway, what is she complaining about? I really am kind of confused.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

I've often found that when posting/blogging/chatting on the internet, it is very easy to lose sight of the Why one is doing this. So, I have a heart-warming story for everyone.

Tonight, my roommate (who just finished reading his copy of Phantom), bought a six-pack of beer, and we discussed Mr. Terry Goodkind. A little background: I've been sharing with him choice pieces about my ongoing anti-Yeard campaign, and in specific, plot points of Phantom (Richard loses his power again, becomes a member of a sports team, etc.) He did not believe me, and upon finishing the book, decided that he did not want to read TG anymore. My fiancee, who was next in line to read the book, after hearing both of us talk about it, also decided she would not read any more SoT until "Terry Goodkind gets his shit together".

So, I'm hoping this trend will continue among everyone: not just online, but in everyone's real lives. Kind of a netroots anti-Yeard movement. I want to hear stories about how people were touched by SoT, and contracted gonorrhea. I'm hoping I'm not the only one who wants to spare those around them the wasted time and/or money. Remember, a good friend means that you advise your friend against huffing gasoline, even if they really might want to try it.

ETA: 2 down, 50 million to go

[Elrostar]

I've often found that when posting/blogging/chatting on the internet, it is very easy to lose sight of the Why one is doing this. So, I have a heart-warming story for everyone.

Tonight, my roommate (who just finished reading his copy of Phantom), bought a six-pack of beer, and we discussed Mr. Terry Goodkind. A little background: I've been sharing with him choice pieces about my ongoing anti-Yeard campaign, and in specific, plot points of Phantom (Richard loses his power again, becomes a member of a sports team, etc.) He did not believe me, and upon finishing the book, decided that he did not want to read TG anymore. My fiancee, who was next in line to read the book, after hearing both of us talk about it, also decided she would not read any more SoT until "Terry Goodkind gets his shit together".

So, I'm hoping this trend will continue among everyone: not just online, but in everyone's real lives. Kind of a netroots anti-Yeard movement. I want to hear stories about how people were touched by SoT, and contracted gonorrhea. I'm hoping I'm not the only one who wants to spare those around them the wasted time and/or money. Remember, a good friend means that you advise your friend against huffing gasoline, even if they really might want to try it.

ETA: 2 down, 50 million to go

Now that is a touching story. Forget the sequence with Richard and Gratch. I feel moved and touched. And... gosh darnit, I almost wish I had some friends who read TG so I could convince them of the error of their ways and make them stop reading it. Instead I just have to go around and make people laugh at the preposterous nature of a book which includes the line "But this was no chicken. This was evil incarnate." I still have trouble saying it with a straight face.

So my question is, what do those of us who are not fortunate enough to have friends who have been astray do? Should we try to actively seek out readers of TG? Perhaps at the bookstore? Lurk in the fantasy (yes, fantasy) section to see if someone looks like they're going to try to pick up a copy of Phantom, and if so, pounce on them? Or do the same at the library? Perhaps stick little notecards into the library copies of TG's books? I really feel like I'm not doing my part for the cause, here, and Vigo's story has got me all motivated to go out and spread the word!

Incidentally, it's 10 million, right, not 50?

[KAH]

MM;

This was nonspecific wrath.

That made it worse.

I agree; nonspecific wrath sucks. You never know just what kiddie jaw to kick, what spine to rip out, or whose testicles should be force fed it's owner. Very frustrating.

[Zap Rowsdower]

In all fairness, TG never actually said anything about the nobility of goats. I don't think that that's his message, no matter how funny it is to attribute it to him.

Really... some people are taking certain parts of this thread way too seriously.

I must respectfully disagree. Now, let me preface this by saying that I have not actually read the book that contains Betty the Goat (I'm still slogging through Temple of the Winds. I can only take Goodkind in yearly doses, which is why I can must marvel at the almost superhuman endurance of Mad Moose), but I have closely read the QOTD which contains references to the goat. In addition to that I have read nearly of Terry Goodkinds chats and interviews.

While it may be true that Goodkind does not explicitly wrote about the nobility of the goat, I think everything you need to come to this conclusion is contained within the subtext of the novel. Now, listen to this theory: on one of Goodkind's old chat interviews (sorry but I can't provide the link at the moment, I think it might have been one of those interviews that were removed by Goodkind fans in order to prevent Terry from looking like a total ass) one of his fans was gushing to Terry about how much he loved his books. He loved them so much that he had a hard time reading them slowly and that he frequently skimmed pages in his excitement to see the book's climax. Terry seemed to be a little bit shocked and more than a little peeved. Terry responded to the fan's compliments by saying that he was reading the novel in the wrong way. Terry then proceeded to tell his readers how to properly read a Sword of Truth book. Apparently, skimming is a big no no, since you can't really appreciate the grandeur and subtlety of what Ggoodkind has written.

Now, as we all know, Goodkind loves repetitious 20 page speeches. Goodkind would have to be a grade A moron if he thought we couldn't get the gist of what he was saying by skimming past his masturbatory logorrhea. And as we all know, Goodkind is no moron, grade A or otherwise. To me, what Goodkind is saying is that there is a hidden universe of hidden symbols and elegant philosophy behind each and every sentence in his books. If you were to read his series closely enough, a light bulb would pop up above your head and you would suddenly understand where Terry stands on the issue of everything under the sun. You would know whether Terry prefers regular toilet paper or the nice quilted kind (Terry obviously prefers quilted, as the regular stuff is too reminiscent of the sandpaper like substance the evil communist world order foisted on their oppressed thralls) or if Goodkind prefers Velcro over shoelaces, or if he thinks that Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle really was a murderer.

Thus, you see, a faithful Goodkind follower would be able to divine Terry's attitude towards animals, vegetables, and minerals.

Period. Paragraph.

Now, back to the subject of Animals of Truth:

Wolves

Goats

Lizards

Raptors

Animals of Lies and Death:

Chickens

Jackals

Centipedes

Lemmings

Spiders

Serpents

Now, for a couple new additions!

Walrus: if you were to take a walrus, dump it into a pinstripe suit and put a pocket watch in its breast pocket you would have the spitting image of s stereotypical capitalist. A walrus is definitely an Animal of Truth.

Naked African Mole Rats: From wiki "Clusters of 20 to 300 animals live together in complex systems of burrows in arid African deserts. They have a complex social structure in which only one female (the queen) and one to three males reproduces. The animals are further divided into castes of tunnelers and soldiers. Tunnelers are used to expand the large network of tunnels within the burrow whereas soldiers are designated to protect the group from outside predators. The relationships between the queen and the breeding males may last for many years. A behaviour called reproductive suppression is believed to be the reason why the other females do not reproduce, meaning the sterility in the working females is only temporary, and not genetic. Queens live from 13 to 18 years, and are extremely hostile to other females behaving like queens, or producing hormones for becoming queens. When the queen dies, another female takes her place, sometimes after a violent struggle with her competitors." They definitely sound like collectivist scum. Animal of Lies and Death.

[TabbyStardust]

/lurk mode

I've been following these threads from the very beginning, and they have brought me endless mirth. You guys rule.

Someone suggested a VanderMeer/Goodkind parody a couple of threads back. Anyone willing to write this? (I'd do it myself, but don't really have the talent.)

VanderMeer is coming to Finncon (he arrives today already, the Con is this weekend), and I promise to show the parody to him if I get the chance.

However, can we truly say that spiders "embrace life" as is required if you are to be a true objectivist? As far as I know, except for a few species, all spiders do is sit around all day in their web waiting for prey to come to them. This is a particularly lazy way of hunting, much similar to the way a welfare whore waits for her check from the government instead of embracing life and venturing out and taking part in the glorious institution of capitalism.

Should we start a campaign to get schools to teach Objectivist Biology?

[MinDonner]

Hmm. I think we are coming to see a growing discrepancy between "truth" and "facts." In the same way that characters are inherently moral or immoral regardless of their actions, truth seems to have some inherent truthiness regardless of the actual facts. This is pretty deep stuff, though how it counts as "objective" I have yet to determine. Perhaps this is a cry for help from TG, who disappeared up his own arse some years ago and is desperately trying to get out.

I think we can add horses to the Animals of Truth - Richard even names his horses after his favourite storybook characters (as does Nicci, from the looks of things). However, the Animals of Lies and Death are looking pretty lame in comparison and would definitely get beaten as things stand, so I nominate Hyenas (fucking scary pack hunters) and Dinosaurs (from the Old World, obviously) for the bad guys. Richard's team gets the sharks, though - feeding frenzies, each shark for itself, none of that co-operation nonsense...

[Mme Erzulie]

Sharks even eat their siblings to survive the initial phase of development. Talk about embracing life!

[MinDonner]

Well, this was requested a short while ago and I haven't been that busy today so here it is - Richerys Targahlen meets the Unsullied...

The old official tugged at his wispy beard, the hairs clinging together like liberal pansies in a rightous swordfight. His young translator swirled her eyes flirtatiously at Dicky as she interpreted the old man's commentary.

"Tell that Westerlandi twat that he looks ridiculous in that outfit. What the hell's a Yeard supposed to be, anyway?"

"My master compliments you on your noble attire," said the girl.

Dicky grinded his teeth as the translation came through. The official was speaking in Old D'haran, not realising that Dicky's sword gave him the powers of understanding all languages. He felt his thing begin to rise, but pushed it back down - this was neither the time nor the place.

"Tell that self-important windbag that these are the Unsullied. Explain their training to him, as I can't be bothered to expend any more of my breath on that war-mongering piece of shit," said the old man, and wandered off to get a stiff drink.

"My master has asked me to tell you of the Unsullied. These are our most prized warriors, and their skill is second to none."

Dicky doubted that, as he knew none could defeat him in battle, even if he was unarmed and outnumbered by hundreds to one. Nevertheless, he needed these warriors as cannon-fodder for his latest war.

"Tell me of their training!" he said. "Are they noble individuals, fighting as if..."<snip>

<6 pages later> "...and in their pursuit of life, they refuse to bow to..." <oh no, he's still going, another snip>

<another 2 pages later> "...with their ears?" He paused, waiting for the answer.

The translator, who had nodded off, started awake again. "Their training, you said? Er, yes. Well, we find orphans on the street, who have been left to fend for themselves. We take them in, give them a warm bed and some food, and make them feel like they are part of a family." She stopped, seeing Dicky's eyes begin to narrow dangerously.

"Go on," said Dicky, menacingly. This was worse than he had feared.

"Well, then, when they are around the age of 8, we give each an egg, which they have to cherish and look after until it hatches."

Dicky closed his eyes. He knew what was coming. His eyes grew even wider as he asked "Is that... a CHICKEN egg? Do they kill the chick when it hatches?"

"Why, no! They care for the chicken and treat it well, so they learn the value of altruism, and the chicken becomes their friend."

"Then do they kill the chicken?" he asked eagerly.

The translator looked confused. "No, no-one kills the chicken. The chicken is a vulnerable creature - it cannot fly, it cannot fight - so needs protection. The boys are taught to protect the weak. Once they have learnt this lesson, they will learn how to fight, and we want to be sure they will only fight for the right reasons."

Dicky wasn't sure he liked the sound of this. "What of their fighting training?" he asked.

"The boys are first taught to work together as a team, so they can anticipate each others' reactions. Their strengths and weaknesses are identified, so that one soldier can compensate for failings in his fellow. The older boys train the younger ones and everyone helps each other out. By the time they are ready to fight, they have received training in all the major weapons as well as unarmed combat and battle strategy, and can charge high prices for their services."

"What if, er, someone hired them to, say, crush some civilians, then the opposing country paid them more money to come back and kill me, er, him?" asked Dicky.

"...never mind," he added, seeing the look of horror on her face. "I've heard enough! I am Richerys, Father of Gars, and I will single-handedly defeat all your warriarrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhh.........."

Edited for dodgy tags

[Perin Stone]

Richard even names his horses after his favourite storybook characters (as does Nicci, from the looks of things).

Now it makes sense. Richard is a fan of the Wheel of Time series and that is why the horse was named Bela.

[Moosicus]

I think we can add horses to the Animals of Truth - Richard even names his horses after his favourite storybook characters (as does Nicci, from the looks of things). However, the Animals of Lies and Death are looking pretty lame in comparison and would definitely get beaten as things stand, so I nominate Hyenas (fucking scary pack hunters) and Dinosaurs (from the Old World, obviously) for the bad guys. Richard's team gets the sharks, though - feeding frenzies, each shark for itself, none of that co-operation nonsense...

The team of Truthiness also gets dragons. They live alone, kill everybody who bothers them. If you want to survive meating a dragon you'd better be able to offer them something good. I guess Gars as well would be on the team of truthiness, given their current slavish devotion to Richard. Though I wonder, since Gratch is a bigshot among the Gars now due to his relationship with Richard, did he have to kill whichever Gar had a direct connection to Darken Rahl? Hmm. I'm not sure about night wisps. They help out a couple of times, but otherwise don't want anything to do with anyone. How does Objectivism deal with isolationism? The Mriswith, with their hive mentality obviously belong to the side of untruthiness.

What about the mud people? They live in some kind of a hippie commune, except they kill intruders. Will Richard eventually have to kill them all?

[Moosicus]

While trying to find the QotD, I stumbled upon something. I think I might make a habit of it, so long as I have to skim this crap I can give you guys the occasional tidbit.

Zedd noticed that Warren was twisting his robes again.

Zedd waved his bread. "You look like a wizard with his pants full of itching spells. Do you have something you need to let out, Warren?"

~TG, FOTF

[BranTheBuilder]

You look like a wizard with his pants full of itching spells. Do you have something you need to let out, Warren?"

is this another piece of homoerotisism in TG works?

With all this talk of holding upright spears, screwing in fron of ather men and now Zed offering relief to his friend... is TG trying to come to terms with something he doesn't quite understand?

This may explain the subjugation and oppression of women in the books... TG subconsiously despises them and yearns for the company of men?

Just a theory.

[MinDonner]

That wouldn't surprise me at all. What with all those lovingly-crafted descriptions of Richard's glistening manly chest as his muscles flex and his testosterone-fuelled thing rises up. I bet TG's a fan of Manowar.

[Moosicus]

MY EYES!!!!!! It looks like they're all wearing war wizard outfits.

[BranTheBuilder]

I bet TG's a fan of Manowar.

hey, I';ve got some good friends who like Man'o'War.