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How would you rate episode 408?

How would you rate episode 408?  

829 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      12
    • 2
      11
    • 3
      10
    • 4
      17
    • 5
      25
    • 6
      44
    • 7
      82
    • 8
      152
    • 9
      252
    • 10
      221


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News on a Game of Thrones





HBO has crowned a new ratings king. Fantasy hit Game of Thrones has officially surpassed mob drama The Sopranos to become the most-watched show in the premium cable network’s history, HBO confirmed for the first time Thursday.


With two episodes remaining in the fourth season, Thrones has an average gross audience of 18.4 million viewers across all platforms. That surpasses the previous record set by the 2002 peak season of The Sopranos, which had an average gross audience of 18.2 million viewers per episode. Last season of Thrones had an average gross audience of 14.4 million viewers per episode. The news comes as Thrones has set several recent ratings records for its own performance this season.


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I agree with your points, but I guess those writing mistakes don't bother me as much. I enjoy Game of Thrones more than The Wire. Maybe that doesn't mean it's better, but if I had to choose one or the other it would be GOT. The Sopranos is probably still my favorite show of all time, but I don't even know if it's fair to compare Sopranos/Wire to Game of Thrones. It's like apples to oranges. I wouldn't compare a George R.R. Martin novel to a Cormac McCarthy novel. Was the writing in Sopranos/Wire better than Game of Thrones? Absolutely. But Game of Thrones is fantasy and it's a sprawling epic, so I don't take it as seriously and enjoy it more than the Wire, and quite possibly Sopranos. That's probably why I'm able to appreciate it more, and why it's one of my favorite TV shows ever.

What's wrong with that type of comparison? I just finished Catch 22, a book about soldiers in WW2, and I find myself making comparisons between it and a Malazan Book of the Fallen, a series that, unlike aSoIaF, calls upon the supernatural in almost every paragraph, making it unmistakably high fantasy. But the style of soldiers using sardonic humour and satirically ridiculous scenario in the midst of a war whose grimness is borderline absurd is very similar between the two.

If I were to compare a show to aSoIaF, it would be Breaking Bad more than any. Both are very much less about major overarching issues and more about intimate character growths. And both have that common element that they're able to build such a strong setting, through dialogue alone, between characters for whom the stakes are so highly established that you find yourself soaking every word of the conversations. Both aSoIaF and Breaking Bad carry this trait for me, but I can't say the same about GoT. So I'm curious, why do you enjoy GoT more than these other shows? It's not Malazan-like in that it flaunts the supernatural high fantasy elements everywhere it can, in fact, it's quite the opposite. For me, with GoT it's fun to revisit those "big scenes" like the Red Wedding, Oberyn fight, or the whole Blackwater episode. But I just can't imagine doing a full re-watch of seasons 2, 3, or 4.

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What's wrong with that type of comparison? I just finished Catch 22, a book about soldiers in WW2, and I find myself making comparisons between it and a Malazan Book of the Fallen, a series that, unlike aSoIaF, calls upon the supernatural in almost every paragraph, making it unmistakably high fantasy. But the style of soldiers using sardonic humour and satirically ridiculous scenario in the midst of a war whose grimness is borderline absurd is very similar between the two.

If I were to compare a show to aSoIaF, it would be Breaking Bad more than any. Both are very much less about major overarching issues and more about intimate character growths. And both have that common element that they're able to build such a strong setting, through dialogue alone, between characters for whom the stakes are so highly established that you find yourself soaking every word of the conversations. Both aSoIaF and Breaking Bad carry this trait for me, but I can't say the same about GoT. So I'm curious, why do you enjoy GoT more than these other shows? It's not Malazan-like in that it flaunts the supernatural high fantasy elements everywhere it can, in fact, it's quite the opposite. For me, with GoT it's fun to revisit those "big scenes" like the Red Wedding, Oberyn fight, or the whole Blackwater episode. But I just can't imagine doing a full re-watch of seasons 2, 3, or 4.

I guess I enjoy Game of Thrones, because there's nothing else like it on TV. The great episodes are just very entertaining. When it's good it doesn't even feel like a TV show. The fantasy elements, size of the cast, different locations make it epic in size. It's pure escapist entertainment, and overall I enjoy it enough to give the writing mistakes a little pass. And the character development for the most part is still there. Most of the actors are top notch. So I find little to not enjoy about the show. On the other hand The Wire will always be a more socially important show than Game of Thrones, but for me it's not as enjoyable to watch as GOT for the reasons stated above.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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Great episode. Everyone is transfixed by the duel, but the episode was already superb even before it!



Arya's hysterical laughing at the Hound and her constant misfortune; Sansa's testimony for Littlefinger; The attack on Mole's Town; Jorah being banished and Greyworm's strange romance with Missandei. All great parts. The only thing I wasn't to keen on was how fast they moved through Theon's part in the capturing of Moat Cailin.



Of course, the duel was the highlight, filled with intensity and drama, and the giant's confession was great.



10/10


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My favourite season so far as well (and it looks like it will end with two great episodes) . If you looking for poor writing look at Dany in S2, most of the invented material has been pretty decent this season.

Agreed! Dany seemed like a whiny wimp in most of season 2, and she's not supposed to be like that until basically the end of this season.

Some of the writing has been strange, such as Bran going to Craster's Keep, but overall it's been a damned good season, aside from maybe 2 episodes that were sub-par.

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I guess I enjoy Game of Thrones, because there's nothing else like it on TV. The great episodes are just very entertaining. When it's good it doesn't even feel like a TV show. The fantasy elements, size of the cast, different locations make it epic in size. It's pure escapist entertainment, and overall I enjoy it enough to give the writing mistakes a little pass. And the character development for the most part is still there. Most of the actors are top notch. So I find little to not enjoy about the show. On the other hand The Wire will always be a more socially important show than Game of Thrones, but for me it's not as enjoyable to watch as GOT for the reasons stated above.

The Wire was the greatest achievement in a modern world of hugely improved television drama thanks largely to HBO. It was absolutely stunning and will take some beating, though I have greater personal love for Six Feet Under. I read all the ASoIaF books within 2 months after watching the TV series up to the end of season 3 and am now a massive fan of the books. I still love the TV series but somehow I knew I would love the books from watching the show.

Part of me wishes I had read the books first as I'd love to know how I'd react to RW in the books without knowing it was coming. Seems to me D&D did a stunning job with RW though and Michelle Fairley's work was absolutely incredible. I always felt it seemed less of a shock in the books with Robb not being a POV character and the many references foretelling it but I guess knowing it was coming made it easy to see the signs.

I'm quite torn on season 4 because with this being the first time I've watched the show having read the books I feel more underwhelmed than I was on previous seasons and I'm worried I'm judging it harshly as a new fan of the books. They seem to have added more of their own stuff this season though. I would have expected them to go further into AFFC and ADWD given how the whole season has been based upon less than half the material of AGOT and ACOK. Feels like they've been padding it out too much with unnecessary stuff.

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I guess I enjoy Game of Thrones, because there's nothing else like it on TV. The great episodes are just very entertaining. When it's good it doesn't even feel like a TV show. The fantasy elements, size of the cast, different locations make it epic in size. It's pure escapist entertainment, and overall I enjoy it enough to give the writing mistakes a little pass. And the character development for the most part is still there. Most of the actors are top notch. So I find little to not enjoy about the show. On the other hand The Wire will always be a more socially important show than Game of Thrones, but for me it's not as enjoyable to watch as GOT for the reasons stated above.

All right, I see what you're saying. To be honest, shows like Vikings and Spartacus have enough of that fantasy/escapist entertainment aspects for me, and they seem purer and more thrilling in those aspects than GoT. But then, GoT is much richer in character development, narrative, and dialogue than those shows, just a lot weaker than the shows like The Wire, Sopranos, and Breaking Bad. It seems like GoT is more of a jack-of-all-trades but best in none kind of show. I feel like Vikings and Spartacus are far better than GoT in terms of thrilling escapism and pure entertainment factors, and The Wire & Sopranos are far better than GoT in terms of dialogue and narrative, but GoT is far better than those aforementioned shows in the reversed categorical aspects, if you know what I mean. (Well, maybe it's not better than BB in escapism, because BB has quite a bit of escapism with Walter's insane machinations that should never work in real life.)

Part of me wishes I had read the books first as I'd love to know how I'd react to RW in the books without knowing it was coming. Seems to me D&D did a stunning job with RW though and Michelle Fairley's work was absolutely incredible. I always felt it seemed less of a shock in the books with Robb not being a POV character and the many references foretelling it but I guess knowing it was coming made it easy to see the signs.

The RW didn't feel like a big shock to me when I first read it (9 years ago) but it was a very tragic culmination of Catelyn's already very tragic story. (Actually the Oberyn vs Gregor fight was a much bigger shock; so was Arya "dying" until we see that she wasn't actually dead in her next chapter and Sandor just hit her with the flat of her axe... I admit I cheated and flipped forward to see future chapters and see if she was alive, lol.) That's how I felt about the RW, and from that, it read as a sort of deep tragic sadness that you sort of felt coming anyway because Catelyn's chapters were already so tragic at that point. I thought that the addition, in the show, of the Talisa fetus-stabbing, as well as the whole building up Robb and Talisa's relationship, was just a cheap way to get shocks and gasps from the audience. I'm not a fan of hinging your storytelling on shocking twists, and I feel like that's what the show is doing, far more than the books. But then, I supposed I'm biased in my perspective of the show red wedding, because I read it first.

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The Wire was the greatest achievement in a modern world of hugely improved television drama thanks largely to HBO. It was absolutely stunning and will take some beating, though I have greater personal love for Six Feet Under. I read all the ASoIaF books within 2 months after watching the TV series up to the end of season 3 and am now a massive fan of the books. I still love the TV series but somehow I knew I would love the books from watching the show.

Part of me wishes I had read the books first as I'd love to know how I'd react to RW in the books without knowing it was coming. Seems to me D&D did a stunning job with RW though and Michelle Fairley's work was absolutely incredible. I always felt it seemed less of a shock in the books with Robb not being a POV character and the many references foretelling it but I guess knowing it was coming made it easy to see the signs.

I'm quite torn on season 4 because with this being the first time I've watched the show having read the books I feel more underwhelmed than I was on previous seasons and I'm worried I'm judging it harshly as a new fan of the books. They seem to have added more of their own stuff this season though. I would have expected them to go further into AFFC and ADWD given how the whole season has been based upon less than half the material of AGOT and ACOK. Feels like they've been padding it out too much with unnecessary stuff.

You know I think knowing the source material affects us all different. I have never minded, and actually quite enjoyed knowing the source material before watching it on film/tv. Maybe I feel protective of the show, because I watched season 1 before I ever knew about the books--finished books 1-5 before the start of season 2 lol. But knowing what's coming kind of hypes things up for me, because I know when something is about to get very, very good. Plus it's just nice to be watching characters interact on the screen and you know all their backstory and future the second you see them. I think it's actually quite awesome! Plus it's pretty cool to be the person that the unsullied can come to whenever they have questions.

All right, I see what you're saying. To be honest, shows like Vikings and Spartacus have enough of that fantasy/escapist entertainment aspects for me, and they seem purer and more thrilling in those aspects than GoT. But then, GoT is much richer in character development, narrative, and dialogue than those shows, just a lot weaker than the shows like The Wire, Sopranos, and Breaking Bad. It seems like GoT is more of a jack-of-all-trades but best in none kind of show. I feel like Vikings and Spartacus are far better than GoT in terms of thrilling escapism and pure entertainment factors, and The Wire & Sopranos are far better than GoT in terms of dialogue and narrative, but GoT is far better than those aforementioned shows in the reversed categorical aspects, if you know what I mean. (Well, maybe it's not better than BB in escapism, because BB has quite a bit of escapism with Walter's insane machinations that should never work in real life.)

The RW didn't feel like a big shock to me when I first read it (9 years ago) but it was a very tragic culmination of Catelyn's already very tragic story. (Actually the Oberyn vs Gregor fight was a much bigger shock; so was Arya "dying" until we see that she wasn't actually dead in her next chapter and Sandor just hit her with the flat of her axe... I admit I cheated and flipped forward to see future chapters and see if she was alive, lol.) That's how I felt about the RW, and from that, it read as a sort of deep tragic sadness that you sort of felt coming anyway because Catelyn's chapters were already so tragic at that point. I thought that the addition, in the show, of the Talisa fetus-stabbing, as well as the whole building up Robb and Talisa's relationship, was just a cheap way to get shocks and gasps from the audience. I'm not a fan of hinging your storytelling on shocking twists, and I feel like that's what the show is doing, far more than the books. But then, I supposed I'm biased in my perspective of the show red wedding, because I read it first.

BINGO! That's what I was trying to say. It's just a great mix of everything. Maybe the show is not the best at one single thing, but its epic size and scope more than make up for it to me.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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The RW didn't feel like a big shock to me when I first read it (9 years ago) but it was a very tragic culmination of Catelyn's already very tragic story. (Actually the Oberyn vs Gregor fight was a much bigger shock; so was Arya "dying" until we see that she wasn't actually dead in her next chapter and Sandor just hit her with the flat of her axe... I admit I cheated and flipped forward to see future chapters and see if she was alive, lol.) That's how I felt about the RW, and from that, it read as a sort of deep tragic sadness that you sort of felt coming anyway because Catelyn's chapters were already so tragic at that point. I thought that the addition, in the show, of the Talisa fetus-stabbing, as well as the whole building up Robb and Talisa's relationship, was just a cheap way to get shocks and gasps from the audience. I'm not a fan of hinging your storytelling on shocking twists, and I feel like that's what the show is doing, far more than the books. But then, I supposed I'm biased in my perspective of the show red wedding, because I read it first.

You are very right re: shock value. The ONLY point that Talisa served was to make the unsullied shit their pants when watching the RW. That was her only narrative purpose in the show. Her love and pregnancy make Robb's future seemingly more secure. D&D fell in love with the audience reaction to Ned's beheading and decided that they needed to trump it big time with the Red Wedding. So they create the romance with Robb and Talisa, focusing much of Robb's screen time on that tripe, and then stab stab stab her in her pregnant belly. Because what's more shocking than a pregnant women getting brutally executed, right?

The Red Wedding in the books, on the other hand, was a bit of a slow boil, horror movie style. GRRM masterfully weaves these note of discord into the affair, and then when the treachery is revealed it turns into a brawl where the loyalty of Robb's men, the love they feel for him, is portrayed during a desperate struggle. You feel far more than shock and sadness in that scenes, you feel the growing sense of dread, the thin hope of survival, the loyalty and love, the sadness of each northerner falling and then the pain of "Jaime Lannister sends his regards". Followed, of course, by Cat's horrific fate. The first time i read the RW in like 1999 i threw my book across the room and refused to touch it for two days. Watching Dumb and Dumber's version just made me never want to watch the show again, but for far different reasons.

Edited by Relic

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You are very right re: shock value. The ONLY point that Talisa served was to make the unsullied shit their pants when watching the RW. That was her only narrative purpose in the show. Her love and pregnancy make Robb's future seemingly more secure. D&D fell in love with the audience reaction to Ned's beheading and decided that they needed to trump it big time with the Red Wedding. So they create the romance with Robb and Talisa, focusing much of Robb's screen time on that tripe, and then stab stab stab her in her pregnant belly. Because what's more shocking than a pregnant women getting brutally executed, right?

The Red Wedding in the books, on the other hand, was a bit of a slow boil, horror movie style. GRRM masterfully weaves these note of discord into the affair, and then when the treachery is revealed it turns into a brawl where the loyalty of Robb's men, the love they feel for him, is portrayed during a desperate struggle. You feel far more than shock and sadness in that scenes, you feel the growing sense of dread, the thin hope of survival, the loyalty and love, the sadness of each northerner falling and then the pain of "Jaime Lannister sends his regards". Followed, of course, by Cat's horrific fate. The first time i read the RW in like 1999 i threw my book across the room and refused to touch it for two days. Watching Dumb and Dumber's version just made me never want to watch the show again, but for far different reasons.

The book was definitely better, but I question whether a true adaptation would have worked. First, how ominous can you make the episode before you completely give it away that something bad is going to happen? For example, when I read the books I knew from the moment Greywind tried to attack the Frey that something very bad was going to happen. Also, you put it really beautifully about the struggle of Robb's men to protect their king, but would that work for the show? They never really made any of Robb's fellow Northmen prominent enough in the show for the audience to have any type of investment in them by the time the Red Wedding came. And I don't know if I can blame them, because there's only so much time you can spend on each character. It was easier to make Talisa the focus than a few commanders. I would have liked it the other way, but as I've said all day it was another change that didn't really bug me that much.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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All right, I see what you're saying. To be honest, shows like Vikings and Spartacus have enough of that fantasy/escapist entertainment aspects for me, and they seem purer and more thrilling in those aspects than GoT. But then, GoT is much richer in character development, narrative, and dialogue than those shows, just a lot weaker than the shows like The Wire, Sopranos, and Breaking Bad.

You actually place Spartacus with The Wire, Sopranos and Breaking Bad!?

That's like lumping Plan Nine from Outer Space with Lawrence of Arabia!

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The book was definitely better, but I question whether a true adaptation would have worked. First, how ominous can you make the episode before you completely give it away that something bad is going to happen? For example, when I read the books I knew from the moment Greywind tried to attack the Frey that something very bad was going to happen. Also, you put it really beautifully about the struggle of Robb's men to protect their king, but would that work for the show? They never really made any of Robb's fellow Northmen prominent enough in the show for the audience to have any type of investment in them by the time the Red Wedding came. And I don't know if I can blame them, because there's only so much time you can spend on each character. It was easier to make Talisa the focus than a few commanders. I would have liked it the other way, but as I've said all day it was another change that didn't really bug me that much.

^This^

I agree with what's being said about shock value. Everything is amped up in the show for effect. I don't think what D&D have done is bad though. I may never have gravitated to the books if it weren't for their screen adaptation, so I have to be hugely thankful to them for that. I think if you can switch off your knowledge from the books, the show is very entertaining and engrossing. There was never any chance that the subtleties and scope of the books could translate completely effectively onto the screen because as mediums they are vastly different. I think they have made a fair few mistakes, but not enough to turn great source material into rubbish.

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+ Viper


+ Sansa


+ Opening Wildling Raid


+ Missandei and Grey Worm



- Dany and Jorah



9/10 because I save the 10s for something super special.


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You actually place Spartacus with The Wire, Sopranos and Breaking Bad!?

That's like lumping Plan Nine from Outer Space with Lawrence of Arabia!

Nope. Read my post again.

I said that Vikings and Spartacus beats GoT in sheer escapism and pure entertainment value, while The Wire, Sopranos, and BB beat GoT in narrative, character development, dialogue, and plot development. I value the latter traits far more than the former, so clearly I put the latter shows in much higher regard than the former. However, if I were either mentally exhausted or completely wasted off my ass and wanted some quick show to let loose, I might pick the former shows just out of the fact that they're fun and entertaining, and aren't too thought provoking.

Edited by Bridgeburners

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Benioff and Weiss are hacks

Then this is quite an achievement.

You book purists need to go kick rocks. You're worse than Bieber fans.

EDIT: Then again, you probably thought David Chase was a hack, too, so...

Edited by LilJonUmber

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Nope. Read my post again.

I said that Vikings and Spartacus beats GoT in sheer escapism and pure entertainment value, while The Wire, Sopranos, and BB beat GoT in narrative, character development, dialogue, and plot development. I value the latter traits far more than the former, so clearly I put the latter shows in much higher regard than the former. However, if I were either mentally exhausted or completely wasted off my ass and wanted some quick show to let loose, I might pick the former shows just out of the fact that they're fun and entertaining, and aren't too thought provoking.

Vikings is garbage. A child could've written each ep (is it confirmed that this isn't the case?)

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Then this is quite an achievement.

You book purists need to go kick rocks. You're worse than Bieber fans.

EDIT: Then again, you probably thought David Chase was a hack, too, so...

Isn't the "The Sopranos" his own material and story?

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Then this is quite an achievement.

You book purists need to go kick rocks. You're worse than Bieber fans.

EDIT: Then again, you probably thought David Chase was a hack, too, so...

Is it really? based on that logic Titanic is the best movie ever made.

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Vikings is garbage. A child could've written each ep (is it confirmed that this isn't the case?)

Yes. It is confirmed that is not the case.

I do agree the writing is somewhat disappointing but there is a lot about that show that is not garbage.

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