Why would the Highlords of Westeros declare for Jon?

[TheNinjaDC]

1) Why would the Highlords care about the wildings?

2) Harry inherits the Vale if SR dies. Not Sansa. And he has no connection to Jon.

3) Yeah. Possibly. It just seems icky, but then again... they are Targs. :P

4) O.K.

1: Highlords would have to recognize the leadership skill of one who can get the Wildlings & Night Watch(bigger enemies than Blackwoods & Bracken) to fight alongside each-other, under his command. [Amongst similar achievements in the next two books.]

2: Sansa does not have to "rule" the Vale to "control" the Vale. Her teacher is Pedofinger after all.

Add to this, Pedofinger might ocrastraight things so Sansa (and himself from the shadows) rule the Vale. Sansa, will onevitable betray her teacher because of all the **** he has done. He will fall for this betrayal because Cat & Cat2.0 are his only weakness(s).

[Lee-Sensei]

1: Highlords would have to recognize the leadership skill of one who can get the Wildlings & Night Watch(bigger enemies than Blackwoods & Bracken) to fight alongside each-other, under his command. [Amongst similar achievements in the next two books.]

2: Sansa does not have to "rule" the Vale to "control" the Vale. Her teacher is Pedofinger after all.

Add to this, Pedofinger might ocrastraight things so Sansa (and himself from the shadows) rule the Vale. Sansa, will onevitable betray her teacher because of all the **** he has done. He will fall for this betrayal because Cat & Cat2.0 are his only weakness(s).

1) Do the Highlords know about their feud? I really don't think they care about that.

2) I've seen little evidence that she'd be able to control Harry to such a degree as to get him to swear fealty to Jon Snow. LF would have to axe off SR, get Harry to agree to the marriage, go through with the marriage and have Harry impregnate Sansa before killing him off before either of them can get control. And even then, it's likely that a Valelord would take over as regent since Sansa's 13 to 14 years old. That's a little much for two remaining books.

[TheNinjaDC]

Jon on the IT would suck not because it's cliche but because it would mean he would be embracing his Targaryen heritage which I would fucking hate and see as the worst ending for Jon. My happy ending for Jon would be him in a rebuilt Winterfell reunited with Arya and Rickon embracing his Stark heritage but considering Jon is the only potential IT claiment with knowledge of the Others and perceives them as a threat, Jon as king is likly.

That is part of the bittersweet ending GRRM talked about.

Jon has always wanted to be a Stark. It is his biggest personal desire, period. (A rather popular desire as well as Theon & Lady Dustin has shown...)

However, to return the Kingdom to peace & stability, he would have to embrace his Targ heritage over his Stark, and leave Winterfell, the North, and his Stark family behind for years(maybe forever). Jon would become King because he sees it as necessary for the realm of men, not becuase he wants to.

Jon would kill the boy who wants to be a Stark, so the man who can save the realm can live.

[TheNinjaDC]

1) Do the Highlords know about their feud? I really don't think they care about that.

2) I've seen little evidence that she'd be able to control Harry to such a degree as to get him to swear fealty to Jon Snow. LF would have to axe off SR, get Harry to agree to the marriage, go through with the marriage and have Harry impregnate Sansa before killing him off before either of them can get control. And even then, it's likely that a Valelord would take over as regent since Sansa's 13 to 14 years old. That's a little much for two remaining books.

The Vale lords were pissed because they were kept out of the war against the Lannisters. It won't take much to get them on the North's side.

She can't control Harry, but she has shown her ability to control Robin as his substitute mother. Harry in the end might be a distraction. Remember, in GoT Sansa's arranged marriage is to Robbin, and they've reached Sansa's current arc where Harry would have been introduced. If he was important, why did they cut him from the show?

[Lee-Sensei]

The Vale lords were pissed because they were kept out of the war against the Lannisters. It won't take much to get them on the North's side.

She can't control Harry, but she has shown her ability to control Robin as his substitute mother. Harry in the end might be a distraction. Remember, in GoT Sansa's arranged marriage is to Robbin, and they've reached Sansa's current arc where Harry would have been introduced. If he was important, why did they cut him from the show?

Myth. Only some of them were.

Did they cut him from the show?

[TheNinjaDC]

Myth. Only some of them were.

Did they cut him from the show?

Sansa's GoT arc has caught up to the books, perhaps even surpased with the Vale Lords knowing Sansa is Sansa. Yet, there is no mention of Harry, and Robin is who Sansa has been set up to marry.

[A Man Reads]

They wouldn't. At least not for Jon alone. Any Targaryen re-conquest of Westeros appears to be coming from the south. It's been set up that way for Daenerys, or Aegon, or Aegon and Daenerys:

Daenerys & Dragons

Unsullied

Tyrion Lannister & Jorah Mormont

Iron Fleet

+

[Other Essos support?]

Golden Company + Aegon

Varys in King's Landing

Connington in the Storm Lands

Dorne

Disgruntled houses

Seize a Cersei-fatigued King's Landing

Defeat Stannis

Pick up the Jaehaeryses come late-lies

------------------------------------

Targaryen restoration

We have 2 books left (for now) and many POV characters to wrap up before the end. If the end is a Targaryen restoration, it's far easier to write it coming from the south. Having Jon win Westeros coming from the north while resolving all major story lines is a far harder, much longer undertaking. Especially if he's already supporting Stannis's cause, has refused Winterfell and the north, and has the battle against the Others still to come.

[Ice Turtle]

The easiest way is Dany believing he is Rhaegar's son and naming him his heir. Or A Great Council.

Besides that he is likely to get support of North and Riverlands and he is just a person who would make a deal with Asha and part of Ironborn who are against Euron. I also believe he will make alliance with Braavos. That is not a bad starting point when the lords will be looking for a new leader after Dany and Aegon successfully annihilate each other. Experience with fighting Others would be big bonus.

[The Dragon has three heads]

They wouldn't, it will never happen, Jon is dead meat-now or later.

[TheonGreyjoy]

They wouldn't. At least not for Jon alone. Any Targaryen re-conquest of Westeros appears to be coming from the south. It's been set up that way for Daenerys, or Aegon, or Aegon and Daenerys:

Daenerys & Dragons

Unsullied

Tyrion Lannister & Jorah Mormont

Iron Fleet

+

[Other Essos support?]

Golden Company + Aegon

Varys in King's Landing

Connington in the Storm Lands

Dorne

Disgruntled houses

Seize a Cersei-fatigued King's Landing

Defeat Stannis

Pick up the Jaehaeryses come late-lies

------------------------------------

Targaryen restoration

We have 2 books left (for now) and many POV characters to wrap up before the end. If the end is a Targaryen restoration, it's far easier to write it coming from the south. Having Jon win Westeros coming from the north while resolving all major story lines is a far harder, much longer undertaking. Especially if he's already supporting Stannis's cause, has refused Winterfell and the north, and has the battle against the Others still to come.

Yes two books left with a speculated 1500 pages each. that is the same amount as the 5 books so far. Plenty of space for things to unfold, specially if you cut down on the travelogues, like Stannis from Dragonstone to the wall.

[David Selig]

4) Jon is a suprise for king. The bastard on the wall to king of the realm. If that is not a suprise, i dont know what. The casual reader dont over analyse the books, as readers on the forum. The majority will have Stannis or Dany as favorites for the crown.

If you have read more than 2 or 3 other fantasy novels, it is not a surprise at all, this is just about the most overused fantasy plot there is.

[Wight Bear]

For Jon to have a united North he would have to sever ties with the NW before claiming Winterfell. I just don't see the northern houses getting behind a bastard Stark that deserted the Wall. Combining forces and fighting a nonhuman enemy will probably be the closest he gets to leading them.

So if I don't think his own people (and his father's and brother's banner men) will support him I don't think the rest of Westeros will decide that a bastard with no concrete claim should be their king.

[Minsc]

1: Highlords would have to recognize the leadership skill of one who can get the Wildlings & Night Watch(bigger enemies than Blackwoods & Bracken) to fight alongside each-other, under his command. [Amongst similar achievements in the next two books.]

You mean the same leadership skills that led him to being stabbed by his own men?

If you have read more than 2 or 3 other fantasy novels, it is not a surprise at all, this is just about the most overused fantasy plot there is.

Yeah, it wouldn't be surprising in the least.

[KINGpanther]

If you have read more than 2 or 3 other fantasy novels, it is not a surprise at all, this is just about the most overused fantasy plot there is.

Yeh Jon being King, an afterthought coming from nowhere to be king, has been done to dinner by other fantasy stories true but in those other stories the king has a long reign, is loved, brings peace and gets the girl they love. Even if Jon unites the realm and defeats the Others afterwards the kingdoms would be at eachothers throats again coniving and plotting against eachother, the Faith and starvation need to be dealt with and the girl Jon loves (Ygritte) is dead.

[jet199]

Everything the lords loved about Rhaegar, Jon has. In fact they would love him even more because he was never a book word, which lords hate. We see in TSS that legitimacy is far less valued than being a good looking warrior.

[David Selig]

Everything the lords loved about Rhaegar, Jon has. In fact they would love him even more because he was never a book word, which lords hate. We see in TSS that legitimacy is far less valued than being a good looking warrior.

Except that Jon is not good-looking. Or a famous warrior. Or legally the heir of the throne established as such from birth. Etc...

[The Dragon has three heads]

Put yourself inside Jon's character-why does he care about the IT?

He's got enough problems.

He's already KITN-but he doesn't know it yet, he's already KBTW-but he doesn't know it yet, in fact, he's already the Nights king come again but doesn't know it yet either.

He knows nothing...and he's dying.

Only plot armour or the deus ex Reed can save him.

[Greymoon]

They don't need to declare for him. He only needs to play on the Stark legacy first....He needs the wildlings and the northerners to get along; that’s all, imo. Then, he needs to free the north and the riverlands; and prove his worth on the battlefield. Then, he becomes the better option, if fAegon and Dany are at each other’s throat burning Dorne; the Storm lands, etc. to ashes and cinders.

If the northerners are willing to accept him as Robb's heir -- all Jon needs do is prove that he can lead them to victory. For all the resentment between northerners and wildlings, also -- I suspect northerners (the mountains clans, in any case) are even more wary of southerners (all but riverlanders; since they bled together)....and if they can find “kinship” in their common disapproval of southerners; they can fight together – the Magnar would, in any case. And with him, others would follow – plus, the mountains clans didn’t seems to disapprove much of Jon plans; once he’d explained all there was to know about the “blood price.” If that deal holds; Jon has Tormund’s lot. With the free folk, his army would be much, much stronger. Also he'd have wargs by his side...

In the north; I don’t think they’ll care much. Robb was one, too.

Many in the south might discredit him for it. Others will not care; and perhaps it is better to be accused of being a warg-monster; than being accused of kinslaying. (Dany/Viserys). Jon is also, not a foreigner: both fAegon and Dany are. Some might say it is too easy to sweep in and conquer the lands just when everything is going to hell; after 17 years of absence.... Jon was at the wall. He didn't do much; but at least he was in Westeros; and he did sort of help Stannis out; remains to be seen how much others know of Jon’s involvement in Stannis’s northern conquest.

In any case, his family was terribly wronged -- that ought to inspire some southerners too...from the beginning we've had the Lannister/Stark enmity being set up...It should be expected that the small folk in westeros have caught up by now. If the Lannisters lose their hold in KL; with all the rumors circulating about incest ect. they will lose all sort of support. The memory of Robert and Ned; of the Young Wolf, slaughtered at a wedding – might mean a great deal then.

Since the war was Lannister/Stark to begin with; it seems logical that those who are wary of allying with Dany (Mad King's daughter; woman; kinslayer; armies of foreigners etc.) or Aegon (his claim cannot be proven; the golden company cannot win the war on its own; he might never get a dragon); would chose to side with the Starks; hence with Jon and Rickon, and even Sansa. (If she gets away Petyr Baelish)

The war of the usurper; RR, is still rather fresh in the minds of many; and Robert was well loved. Sure Targ loyalist existed; but...overall; some might have preferred him to the Targaryen rule.

... imo, there's no point for Jon to state a claim on Targaryen heritage before he first proves his worth by reclaiming Robb's kingdom; and have Frey and Boltons brought to justice. By then, he’d have leverage to negotiate with other claimants; and secure a momentary peace for North/Riverlands...

He might never take up Robb’s crown – but chose for example, to “command” the armies as war general, to free north and riverlands – in that case, Jon becomes one of the best allies to have; and he can practically hand pick himself who the next king on the IT should be.

(that I’d see happening, if he can negotiate with Dany: with fAegon, she’ll be hard pressed to find allies as well...It'd be a “I’ll support your claim” sort of deal; in exchange for a “peace” settlement; and/or resources.)

After that, he can move up north; though bringing Tyrells or other southron families into the fold would be good for food and wealth too.

So...Jon needs time. To settle the North + Riverlands before the wall comes down. And considering the state of the NW, it’d seem the logical thing to do. The realm has meddle with the watch; the war has cut short their resources – with another threat coming their way; the only way to survive winter, is to have peace..... so, yeah....he needs lots of time. But then, so does Dany. Sort of. And fAegon too... And all sorts of other events/plans (The Lannister downfall; Littlefinger’s Sansa scheme; the GNC; etc. etc.) might just buy him that time – if the WW don’t strike right away.

...If he has the time to do all that ;) and if he proves himself an able commander; at the end of the war he will have the support of many. Declaring a Targaryen heritage will then only serve to silence all and legitimize his rule....He would not be King by virtue of being Rhaegar’s son. He’d be King by virtue of what he has achieved.

EDIT: spelling

[SkaggCannibal]

Because... no got nothing.

I'd sooner see them behead him for desserting than to declare for him. Or at least that's what Ned would do.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

I'm really curious about this. I mean, the North makes sense. Robb named Jon his heir. Maybe the Riverlands too, although I'm not sure how they'd feel about following Ned Starks bastard since it's an insult to House Tully. But why the rest of Westeros? None of them have a connection to Jon and if the truth about his birth comes out, the biggest Targ loyalists (the Martells) would be against him.

At this point they would follow anyone willing to take on the lannisters and freys. Besides what tullys are left edmure not exactly his fathers son is he? In recent memory they remember the northen king of the trident who saved them and bought them a bunch of victories, not a tully.

1) Has Jon proven to be a good ruler?

2) I don't think the Vale's part of that pack.

3) Isn't Daenerys Jon's aunt?

4) Didn't GRRM say that who ends up on th IT would be a surprise. Jon is a popular choice for King from what I've seen.

1. Has anybody else really ? Everybody who might be we only from second hand accounts and the first hand account maybe tywin or kevan who is dead, the rest we know are great warrior's (garlan, tarly) and only showing aspect of kingship or dead or unacceptable (Jaime may be good at being king but his attitude and past is against him)

The most powerful families were redforts corbrays and Royce and the other wayn 'sumthing'. That would be like the Bolton, manderlys, umbers and ryswell all demanding war. If they weren't so loyal to lysa regency war would have happened. so providing sansa supports jon yea.

Targaryans lee.

The only reason people know about R+L=J is because of these forums, very few people would have figured it out and the TV viewers would have their minds blown away.