jurble Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Speaking of The False Sun, y'all should see this. that is awesome, my favorite of his yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 that is awesome, my favorite of his yet He certainly helps me visualize some of the most obscure things that Bakker writes about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I see a lot of discussion in these threads about how Kellhus pulled Serwe's heart out of his... chest. But what was the point of that whole scene anyway?? Is it only that Bakker wanted to show us Kellhus doing miraculous things because it seems wierd even for a prophet to pull his heart out in front of his followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Serwe was a symbol of Earwa, and the heart scene symbolizes Kellhus's grasping of the Thousandfold Thought IMO, which is as I said before the code that runs the metaphysics of the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Well, even without the heart issue itself, there is a larger plot point to the whole scene. Kellhus had figured out that they were basically in a death trap in Caraskand surrounded by the Fanim, starving, and with discord breaking out between the Orthodox and the Zaudunyani. So Kellhus calculates that the only way out is something that reunites everyone and does it under an absurd amount of conviction. A miracle ends up being the way, and the heart appears to have been a piece of that, but that was just one piece. It was also surviving the circumfix and the exposure of the skin spy as some demonic entity. So there was still a miracle of some sort even without the heart. But my larger point is that the whole ordeal was part of the shortest path out of the Caraskand trap. I understand the larger point, but not the point of the heart specifically other than to show everyone that he has miraculous poweers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Serwe was a symbol of Earwa, and the heart scene symbolizes Kellhus's grasping of the Thousandfold Thought...I've heard it mentioned before that Serwe symbolizes Earwa, although I don't get how I like the idea that the heart thing is symbology for him grasping TTT. But I think a better way to put what you're saying is that TTT is Earwa's meaning? And that grasping it means that Kellhus grasped its metaphysics / God or something which is what allowed him to pull the heart out int he first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 I always think of her as somewhat analogous to the Virgin Mary and the heart imagery always reminds me of the paintings prevalent in the Catholic faith of Mary with a heart/burning heart superimposed.ETA: Ah. Here it is. The Immaculate Heart of Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Could be that young Moenghus is the real Messiah then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Could be that young Moenghus is the real Messiah then.Now I would love that. If I never get to see Cnauir again, that would make up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I understand the larger point, but not the point of the heart specifically other than to show everyone that he has miraculous poweers. I thought that was the point. It's what the SS grandmaster grabs onto in TTT as the proof Kel is for real. He thinks something like: he pulled out his own fucking heart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Could be that young Moenghus is the real Messiah then.I just watched the first Zatoichi (the blind swordsman) film last night and the running persistent thought for me the whole time was: "damn, what if Moenghus were blind the whole time?" which for some reason went hand in hand with the thoughts that Moenghus was the Messiah, not his son. :-p Perhaps turning on it's head the whole Christian take: That God so loved the world he gave his son. I could see Bakker enjoying using the series to attack that trope with 'super smart' questions like, "If god loved the world so much why did he send his son? why didn't he send himself?" Which of course are questions so deep that they disprove christianity. :-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Could be that young Moenghus is the real Messiah then.I think he will oppose Kellhus somehow. If you think of Serwe as a symbol of the pre-Kellhus Earwa.Hes all that remains of Serwë, . . . All thats left... Proof that she was..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Just found this regarding the idea that the Nonmen do not have paper books, This was the place where the first Quyan texts had been translated and stored, and where the first sorcerous School, the Sohonc, had been born.Here... The famed Library of Sauglish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I suspect the circumfixion is the central event of the Prince of Nothing, if not the entire Second Apocalypse. As a Dunyain, Kellhus has been conditioned to see the entire world in terms of the mundane; the concepts of 'sin' and 'wickedness' are nothing more than mechanisms of control. Conversely, witnessing the consistent violation and brutalization of Serwe continually challenges those beliefs. When you get the circumfixion and her death, Kellhus totally loses his shit. Reading that passage again, I noticed how he has a nervous breakdown, despite having planned the circumfixion beforehand (Achamian notes the circumfix banners were sewn days before the incident). Raising his/her/their heart is his way of symbolizing that he sees beyond just the mundane now, similar to how the Psukhe is the "metaphysics of the heart." Just as how, when he stabs his father, noting that Moenghus is still Dunyain, Kellhus claims, "I am more." Then again, the recap in the Aspect Emperor books says Kellhus has gone mad, so perhaps this is merely the moment where his sanity collapsed and nothing more. Bakker once wrote that epic fantasy is about proving that our lives have meaning, when all evidence points to the contrary. So I think the circumfixion and the series is the embodiment of that idea, and that's why Serwe is the most important character of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 despite having planned the circumfixion beforehand Kind of. This is how Kellhus's Circumfix decision is desribed in book III, He must make a leap of faith. The Circumfix was a leap of faith really. And as a result Kellhus grasped TTT, which (on something unrelated) is what makes me doubt this idea that TTT has anything to do with the Probability Trance. He made a leap of faith, which is the exact opposite of the probability trance and his Dunyain teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Just trying to go through some of the questions that have been nagging at me for a while but can't find any discussion of in previous threads (not that I'm sure I'll find it if it's there.) 1. In the JE/WLW Mimara sees Achamian as damned and he takes that as proof of Kellhus's falsehood. Did Mimara actually see that it was specifically the sorcery that damned him or is it possible that he's damned, but for other reasons? 2. We know that the early Dunyain removed all evidence of sorcery from Ishual. That's understandable if their goals can only be achieved through mundane training, but why would they remove all evidence of the Nonmen and the Sranc? kellhus knew about sharks IIRC just after he left Ishual. It's trivial but why teach about sharks but not Sranc or even the Nonmen as just another species? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Exceptions are made for exceedingly shitty books. And besides, DotD was mentioned as an aside, it's not the topic of discussion so there is no obligation to mentioning any reasoning subjective or otherwise. Well, now I know the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 2. We know that the early Dunyain removed all evidence of sorcery from Ishual. That's understandable if their goals can only be achieved through mundane training, but why would they remove all evidence of the Nonmen and the Sranc? kellhus knew about sharks IIRC just after he left Ishual. It's trivial but why teach about sharks but not Sranc or even the Nonmen as just another species? The knowledge of Nonmen may have just faded. The knowledge of Sranc may have simply not been available to him. After all, it was only their tracks he didn't recognize. He knows that there were the reason Moenghus fled from Ishual, doesn't mean that he has to recognize their tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Not quite sure how to use quotes with tapatalk, but iirc the whole bit about moe investigating sranc was an explanation given after kellhus met sranc with leweth. Before meeting sranc he told leweth his father summoned him for war whilst idly wondering if the truth was the right tactic.Cnaiur connects moe to sranc and Kell builds on that explanation and information because Cnaiur already believes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The knowledge of Nonmen may have just faded. The knowledge of Sranc may have simply not been available to him. After all, it was only their tracks he didn't recognize. He knows that there were the reason Moenghus fled from Ishual, doesn't mean that he has to recognize their tracks. Well, he knew what the skeleton of a shark looked like, seems far fetched that he wouldn't know what a Sranc is (and he didn't) or guess what its tracks looked like. Also, I'm not sure how the knowledge of the Nonmen could fade away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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