sologdin Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 MSJ, the books can be labor intensive, but it's a lot more work to keep up with these discussions. we all have separate interests in reading them, and direct our contributions toward those interests. some folks focus on working out the underlying rules of the setting, which relies on much abstract speculation. others try to piece together WTF actually happened at key points where the narration is fragmentary or figurative. some work toward political critique, especially regarding gender ideology. my own efforts are one part history of ideas and one part ironizing satire, just to fuck with all'y'all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Keep in mind these threads have been digging into the same core topics for years. So a lot of ideas have been fleshed out again and again, with nuances introduced and references touched on and explained. Even glancing at these threads after a hiatus it takes me awhile to recall exactly what is going on.Sci, im just kidding around. Alot of it is true, without all of your guys input, id still be in the blind. What i was having a hard time with is the ascetic/ecstatic argument. Bakker says where it says ecstatic it is not a typo. And in every way the Dunyain is described to us, i never recall much being mystical. Like i said more of a military order and the definition for ascetic almost describes them to a T. So, when i agreed that layers of relevations are irritating, they are when nothing has yet to be revealed. So thanks to Serwe's BH and her find, im saying for certain that there will be a big time reveal about the Dunyain. Maybe like i said upthread, that they knew of the prophecy and sent Moe out to condition Kellhus path. Who knows? But, if Bakker used the word ecstatic just twice, he's being sneaky about something. Makes me even more excited for TUC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Solo, id love to pick your brain. So here it is. The one book without a doubt i need to re-read before TUC, is WLW. Just reading the WLW POV made my head hurt. So do you have any idea who the WLW is, or ive seen it thrown around that it jumps from person to person? Your thoughts, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 The White Luck Warrior doesn't jump from person to person. It jumps from his point of view in the past to the present to the future, but it's always him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Thanks. U got any guess to who it might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think this ecstatic issue is being blown out of proportion. Bakker said on the old three seas forum he was using the word in the old Greek sense. Think like the Pythagoreans trying to obtain the absolute. Doesn't have the same connatation of ecstasy that it does in modern usage. Doesn't seem to me to be a revelation that the Dunyain were originally mystical. Not sure how else to describe the idea of trying to dominate 'what comes before' as if it were per se existential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Pretty sure Bakker means that the Dunyain manufacture E and have weekly raves. Kellhus wasn't sent out on a mission, he left because he was burned out of being a club kid and wanted to get a real job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 We didn't get much revelation concerning the Dunyain in the last two books because the relevant PoV (Achamian) has been on a journey to the Dunyain's home for the last two books, and only reached it in the epilogue of TWLW. If Bakker wants to reveal anything about the Dunyain's backstory, he will do it now that Achamian and Mimara are in Ishual.And there is Bakker saying long ago that the "mystery of the Dunyain feminine" will be revealed in the AE (no, he didn't mean that Kellhus will have daughters). Plus, Madness has kind of inadvertently confirmed it with his comments about TUC.I don't even think there is any question about it. There is plenty of revelation concerning the Dunyain in the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Axlotl tanks incoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Axlotl tanks incoming. Oh God. The shitstorm would be glorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 So specifically on the Dunyain: I don't think we're going to find out much more about them. Note that in the last two books there have been virtually no revelations about the Dunyain. I think we got about as much backstory as we were going to in the first three books. That's not really cheap to me -as I said, we've had almost no discussion about the Dunyain in the last two books, so talking about them more seems odd - but many will be pissed. Well, the only person who knows more about the Dunyain's backstory is Kellhus, and we didn't have his PoV in the JE/WLW. As other have said, if there is anything to reveal, Ishual is the place. And the whole point of Akka's arc in the AE emperor is that he wanted to get to Ishual so he could find out more about the Dunyain. Now that he's finally there it makes no sense to say "we didn't get it before he reached Ishual so we won't get it now". Thanks. U got any guess to who it might be? The White-Luck Warrior? Maybe like i said upthread, that they knew of the prophecy and sent Moe out to condition Kellhus path. Who knows? I think someone knew and sent Moenghus out, not to condition Kellhus's path but to be the savior himself. Moenghus however was not ready, he came a generation earlier and fucked up, had to ask for his son to help him out. But Kellhus had his own plans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think this ecstatic issue is being blown out of proportion. Bakker said on the old three seas forum he was using the word in the old Greek sense. Think like the Pythagoreans trying to obtain the absolute. Doesn't have the same connatation of ecstasy that it does in modern usage. Doesn't seem to me to be a revelation that the Dunyain were originally mystical. Not sure how else to describe the idea of trying to dominate 'what comes before' as if it were per se existential. I figure it's a combination of Parmenides mysticism and Plato's more reasoned course. The Dunyain seem to be trying to make Nagel's "View from Nowhere" into a continually accessed point via whatever means necessary. I suspect the ban on sorcery was more to keep themselves hidden than anything else, but I could also see an argument that sorcery binds you to the world by tying your soul into the onta....or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Yea, really fucking irritating. Why doesn't he just call them ascetic? What am I missing here? I think he wanted to say ascetic. But once he fucked up and wrote the typo "ecstatic" he just pretended that "oh, no I was using the Greek sense of the word" or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diziet Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Axlotl tanks incoming. Yeah, I guess there is something to the fact that he used the phrase "Dunyain feminine" instead of "Dunyain women". But Axloti tanks are something the Inchoroi would come up with, not the Dunyain. My guess is that they have a fantasy version (as opposed to sci-fi) of the Axloti - namely, broodmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think he wanted to say ascetic. But once he fucked up and wrote the typo "ecstatic" he just pretended that "oh, no I was using the Greek sense of the word" or something.Sounds about right. I was just trying to throw some humour into the discussion. I wasnt wanting a pity party, it was a joke. Aaaaahhhh, the joys of social media and texting. Kinda hard to convey what you actually are trying to get across.Anyhoo, i agree that their will be some relevations about the Dunyain in TUC. To me, it always felt like something was missing about them and on purpose. You know, theres plenty of foreshadowing for this too. When the synethse finds out about Kellhus, he asks the ?, "Who are the Dunyain?", multiple times. Add that to what Bakker said about the female line, surely there will be some revelations concerning them.ETA: Serwe, yes does anyone have a clue as to who the WLW is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 nonono they're all hermaphroditic and through years of physical and mental discipline have achieved the flexibility to literally fuck themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I think he wanted to say ascetic. But once he fucked up and wrote the typo "ecstatic" he just pretended that "oh, no I was using the Greek sense of the word" or something. nothing we know about the Dunyain strikes me as particularly ascetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Clearly the Dunyain are like a bad 1990s Arnold Schwarzenegger film. They have ecstatically figured out how males can be modified to have pregnancies instead of women. Thus male axlotl tanks, male brood mares (cause if something offensive is gender switched it's obviously no longer sexist). :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 The ecstatic/ascetic issue is doubly foolish. I just re-read the TTT entry and it's not even a descriptive for the Dunyain. It just says that the Dunyain may have arose from the ecstatic sects of the Ancient North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Fallenhttp://spiralhorizon.deviantart.com/art/Fallen-467402200 You all needed to see this... only the Westerosi have enough indulgent, black-hearted, masochistic, and self-flagellating humour to appreciate it :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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