sologdin Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 choking or beating is going to be a simple battery pretty much anywhere, and, depending on severity, may graduate to aggravated battery or attempted murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Lol. Thanks, solo. Still not what Kalbear said. Nor is that to the point of his ridiculous misrepresentation of the actual text. But again, I think that choking someone and "beating the shit out of someone" are clearly different in act, certainly different in intent, and, probably, legality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yeah still a far cry from being "very clear that Fayanal is not trying to make Psatma enjoy anything - point of fact, he's actively trying to hurt and break and possess her." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I just read the passage where Psatma gives or takes (whichever you believe, me personally, she took his youth.) but, what struck me was the word "ecstatic" was used. And here in this instance I believe it was used in the right way. Sorry to change the subject....continue.ETA: also read the passage at hand. I don't see where it's actual rape. It says, he flung her to the bed the wrapped his callused hands around her neck. Then she proceeds to wrap her legs around him. What I got from it was a rough sex type of thing. I think the slave will be killed for the simple act of witnessing the sex. Maybe I'm wrong, I dnt know. I just don't seem to read as much into things as what others do. I take it pretty much at face value in things like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I was under the impression that Psatma intended from the start to seduce Fanny, all as part of the Cylon plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 So here's the actual passage: He flung her about, cried, "Witch!" He clamped callused hands about her neck, bent her back, crying, "Accursed witch!"Groaning, the Mother-Supreme clutched his hard muscled arms, hooked a naked calf about his waist.Thus he ravished her. So from that it's clear that the choking happened before the sex. I thought I might have misremembered that, but I didn't; even that was true. For that matter, the choking also happened before the sex. So he throws her about and chokes her. I interpret this as beating the shit out of her. What do you think Fayanal's intent is? Psatma spits on him, and relishes him being blasted to charcoal over and over again in her mind. She thinks that she has never wanted the "Thieving touch of men" unlike her sisters. Do you think she's having sex with him because she enjoys it? Do you think she enjoys being choked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I was under the impression that Psatma intended from the start to seduce Fanny, all as part of the Cylon plan.I figured that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I was under the impression that Psatma intended from the start to seduce Fanny, all as part of the Cylon plan. Ah, the old "wing it and hope that our aura of mystery makes us look competent" plan. So... Yatwer's effectiveness takes a huge knock in the final book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Kalbear, from earlier in the passage she states that she gets no enjoyment from sex only when in her ritual. I think it was a planned and she knew it. Knew the slave would be killed. But, she wraps her legs around him to invite the intercourse. I guess this has to be done to fulfill yatwer's plan. She seems to know what's gonna happen. I just don't see the rape. Not saying your wrong in saying Fanyal had bad intentions, sure he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 This is the most bakkerthreadish Bakker thread ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think it was a planned and she knew it. I kind of agree. I think she knows that Fayanal wants her and is going to roughly take her - in the same way she knew that her temples would be destroyed and her followers killed. She says this:"We take such gifts that come," she crooned. "We suffer this worldly trifle, and She will save us! From oblivion! From those demons our iniquities have awakened! This is but the arena where souls settle eternity. Our suffering is dross compared to the glory to come!"She expects abuse; for her, taking abuse is a way of being holy. Or maybe it's better to say how one responds to being abused - if you stay loyal to Yatwer - is a way of being holy. For her, being raped to better tie Fayanal to her is yet another way to serve Yatwer. That doesn't make it any less rape; it means (as she says) she is a vessel, and pours what is poured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Ah, the old "wing it and hope that our aura of mystery makes us look competent" plan. So... Yatwer's effectiveness takes a huge knock in the final book? That would depend on whether Kellhus survives or not, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 That would depend on whether Kellhus survives or not, I think. Depends on whether it's the Cylon plan pre or post second season then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 This is the most bakkerthreadish Bakker thread ever. I was hoping we'd stay focused on the reincarnation stuff....that really throws a wrench in the machine of expectation....though the last book did tell us that sometimes souls bounce. Curious if anyone has ever heard of the RPG Kult? It's all about humanity being gods imprisoned by the Demiurge, and Hell is a processing system that keeps us from regaining our own divinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I was hoping we'd stay focused on the reincarnation stuff....that really throws a wrench in the machine of expectation....though the last book did tell us that sometimes souls bounce. Curious if anyone has ever heard of the RPG Kult? It's all about humanity being gods imprisoned by the Demiurge, and Hell is a processing system that keeps us from regaining our own divinity.Never heard of kult but was wondering what to make of Mimara in the beginning of WLW. shes.reflecting on banishing hell with the chorae and judging eye.but keeps imagining Kellhus as the Seal instead of Ginyursis. How does one become a Wight anyway in Bakkerverse, metaphysically? My guess is it remains a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 How does one become a Wight anyway in Bakkerverse, metaphysically? My guess is it remains a mystery. This is what's most interesting to me about that whole situation, even more-so than the mechanism behind Mimara's banishment of the creature (which I think will make sense as we learn more of the Judging Eye in general). What makes Gin'yursis different from any other random soul? Is it sorcery? Do sorcerers have the chance of maintaining some kind of power, even in the Outside? Clearly they have power in life, as we with daimotic sorcery. I could possibly see the Psukhe being involved with wightification, and Gin'yursis was a pretty crazy sorceror. As you say, though, I don't expect we'll ever get a direct answer to this, but it's interesting to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Could be the fact that he cursed all Men before his death. In a magical world, and especially inside a Topoi, Gin's dying wish to haunt men could have literally manifested in the Wight. Kind of like the movie The Grudge. Too lazy so I'll just quote Wikipedia, The Grudge describes a curse that is born when someone dies in the grip of a powerful rage or extreme sorrow. The curse is an entity created where the person died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I was under the impression that Psatma intended from the start to seduce Fanny, all as part of the Cylon plan."Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road!" Was the last thing she said in the JE. Before Fanayal even took Iothiah. (The quote is a reference to him as far as I can tell.)She knew she would get caught by him (or intended it.) And the seduction and fucking that followed were most likely part of the plan to destroy the Aspect-Emperor, which remains the Yatwerians ultimate goal.On a side note, the above quote implies that Psatma thinks Meppa is an innocent man being mislead by cursed Fanayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Huh. I always interpreted that as talking about Kellhus. I didn't read it as literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Never heard of kult but was wondering what to make of Mimara in the beginning of WLW. shes.reflecting on banishing hell with the chorae and judging eye.but keeps imagining Kellhus as the Seal instead of Ginyursis. How does one become a Wight anyway in Bakkerverse, metaphysically? My guess is it remains a mystery. I wonder if Ginyursis chose to be a Wight. Perhaps his soul is too strong for any Ciphrang to simply devour, yet Ginyursis is also not strong enough to simply or easily walk out of Hell. I don't know, the reincarnation thing makes me wonder if the setting is meant to be even more Gnostic than has already been suggested. Perhaps Bakker will pull a Blood Meridian and leave some hope for mankind post devastation? (Because I'm willing to bet the No-God walks.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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