Bakker XXVII: Shimeh by way of Momemn

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

"Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road!" Was the last thing she said in the JE. Before Fanayal even took Iothiah. (The quote is a reference to him as far as I can tell.)

She knew she would get caught by him (or intended it.) And the seduction and fucking that followed were most likely part of the plan to destroy the Aspect-Emperor, which remains the Yatwerians ultimate goal.

On a side note, the above quote implies that Psatma thinks Meppa is an innocent man being mislead by cursed Fanayal.

Yes I agree,meppa knows what that yatwer and the hundred are present and can't bring himself to destroy Psatma, he knows what the deal is.

[Wise Fool]

"Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road!" Was the last thing she said in the JE. Before Fanayal even took Iothiah. (The quote is a reference to him as far as I can tell.)

She knew she would get caught by him (or intended it.) And the seduction and fucking that followed were most likely part of the plan to destroy the Aspect-Emperor, which remains the Yatwerians ultimate goal.

On a side note, the above quote implies that Psatma thinks Meppa is an innocent man being mislead by cursed Fanayal.

That all seems to be how I figured it too. Although I would note that the quote would have Fanayal as the cursed man misleading the blind... but not necessarily a judgment that the blind in particular (Meppa) is anything like innocent. Meppa is still damned, after all, and Yatwerians seem to share this belief in the damnation that is part of sorcery (one reason why they dislike Kellhus so).

[Sci-2]

That all seems to be how I figured it too. Although I would note that the quote would have Fanayal as the cursed man misleading the blind... but not necessarily a judgment that the blind in particular (Meppa) is anything like innocent. Meppa is still damned, after all, and Yatwerians seem to share this belief in the damnation that is part of sorcery (one reason why they dislike Kellhus so).

Wait, was Meppa = Reincarnated-Fane a joke or honest speculation?

[Callan S.]

Psatma remarks on this the first time we see her and she decides to move once she realizes that people have recognized her and are giving simply because they wanted something in return. "The human heart was ever bent on exchange."

"We take such gifts that come," she crooned. "We suffer this worldly trifle, and She will save us! From oblivion! From those demons our iniquities have awakened! This is but the arena where souls settle eternity. Our suffering is dross compared to the glory to come!"

lol!

[sologdin]

'ravishment' in criminal law usually signifies unlawful, and is the term of art for rape at times in ancient common law. missed that my first time through. thanks, kal.

[Callan S.]

You acknowledge the power difference and that it's of a different degree to other things, yet you can't see that maybe that excessive degree is in fact the justification for the different approach? The relationship between prison guard and prisoner is orders of magnitude different to boss and employee.

Unless the degree of power grants one party mind control, no, I don't see the difference.

As I said before I'd accept a law that makes it illegal for a guard and prisoner to have consensual sex.

Not too long ago witchcraft was still illegal here - your law sounds of the same era.

A prisoner has no legal ability to consent to sexual intercourse with a guard. Regardless of what you think is true or not, that is the basis of the law. An authority figure isn't deciding if you consented at all; there's no decision to make. You cannot, ever, give consent. This is very much analogous to minors being unable to consent with anyone of a majority legally. And that is precisely the law there - there is no consensual sex between guard and captor. It is rape, by definition.

Can't tell if you are merely reciting law or advocating it?

I suspect it's the old 'treat the thing called law as if it's like the laws of physics and actually exists'

You'll keep saying 'there's no decision to make' because you keep treating it as real as physics and you keep treating it as real as physics because...ah, well, that's where the REAL conversation would happen, rather than a rapid fire of slogans.

I'll get onto it with you when it's mutually acknowledge a bunch of guys with uniforms, guns and batons who will enforce a certain doctrine does not make that doctrine somehow make it so very real that there is no decision to make (like there is no decision to make about gravity). No decision to make about gravity - plenty of decision to make about laws. Unless you don't bloody well want to.

The scene is supposed to be disturbing, and it's very clear that Fayanal is not trying to make Psatma enjoy anything

I'm not sure how the enjoyment part seems the significant part.

The inchies certainly make their...'lovers'...enjoy it.

You're using that as a measure of legitimacy?

There is a very big difference between prison and anything else - namely, one side cannot exit the arrangement.

There goes cruise ship sex.

What, in that you have multiple rooms or even a different place to go in the room, but in prison it's completely different, is it?

My guess is what you're saying is that the prisoner must obey every command, every act of will of a guard and cannot escape that.

[Kalbear]

Wait, was Meppa = Reincarnated-Fane a joke or honest speculation?

That was a joke.

Can't tell if you are merely reciting law or advocating it?

I'm reciting the law. You can argue that you think it's an invalid law, and there's some reasonable place to argue it, but legally a prisoner cannot consent to sex with a guard in the US any more than a minor can legally consent to sex with an adult. I say there's no decision to make because there's no decision to make; it is not a judgment call like you were implying. There might be a decision about whether or not the law in question is a good law - but the actual law itself doesn't have any wiggle room. There is no authority figure deciding that some relationships are good and some aren't. It's entirely binary and simple.

Now that all is said, here's a question, Callan. Why do you think that this law came to pass? It didn't start this way. Someone made a number of people decide that this was a Good Thing. Why do you think that is?

You're using that as a measure of legitimacy?I'm using it as an argument against the notion that their relationship is at all consensual or desired by both parties. The original statement was that Fayanal and Psatma were consensual lovers and what they were having was merely sex; I think it's pretty clear that Psatma is using Fayanal, and Fayanal loathes Psatma.

[harrol1]

The Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2004 as interpreted by the State of Arkansas and enforced by the Department of correction was that inmates could not consent to sex at all to anyone not just correctional officers. That included all staff, volunteers, and other inmates.

In Idaho they have a more loose interpretation of the federal law such that inmates can consent to sex with each other.

Kal, I get the sense that Fayanal resents Psatma because he lusts after her so much that he does not feel in control of himself.

[Wise Fool]

Well yeah. He hates her for who and what she is, but he still wants that fertile field, freshly plowed. He's a slave to his impulses. Like all the unconditioned.

[Sci-2]

Well yeah. He hates her for who and what she is, but he still wants that fertile field, freshly plowed. He's a slave to his impulses. Like all the unconditioned.

That "freshly plowed" line still strikes me as one of the dumber things written in a fantasy novel.

The entire Fayanal encounter was weak though, so I guess it fits that section.

[unJon]

lol!

That's funny. Wonder if Bakker was intentionally tryin to show Psatma to be a hypocrite.

[Maithanet]

That "freshly plowed" line still strikes me as one of the dumber things written in a fantasy novel.

The entire Fayanal encounter was weak though, so I guess it fits that section.

I honestly didn't remember this scene at all from when I read WLW when it came out. So yes, a very weak section.

[Rhom]

I thought all of Fanayal's scenes were pretty weak. So I am interested to see what greater role he has to play and thereby decide whether his character was useful or not.

I started a re-read of TWP yesterday. I re-read TDTCB last fall and then got sidetracked by books I hadn't read yet between then and now. :lol: Watching Kellhus manipulate Akka so masterfully early in the book is an enjoyable read.

[Wise Fool]

lol!

Wasn't it Zin who pointed out something of that sort too? The hypocrisy in the Tusk: "Give without expecting anything in return, and you can expect a huge reward!"

[sologdin]

that's the expect not admonition. as I recall it, it appears in one of DA's flashbacks in volume II, or so. DA or his college roommate or whatever reads it to mean that sorcerers are the object of the admonition.

[Diziet]

That's funny. Wonder if Bakker was intentionally tryin to show Psatma to be a hypocrite.

Wasn't it Zin who pointed out something of that sort too? The hypocrisy in the Tusk: "Give without expecting anything in return, and you can expect a huge reward!"

Was Bakker pointing out the hypocrisy of Psatma and the Tusk or religion in general?

That "freshly plowed" line still strikes me as one of the dumber things written in a fantasy novel.

The entire Fayanal encounter was weak though, so I guess it fits that section.

It was "deeply ploughed." Not freshly. Not that it makes much difference.

[Sci-2]

that's the expect not admonition. as I recall it, it appears in one of DA's flashbacks in volume II, or so. DA or his college roommate or whatever reads it to mean that sorcerers are the object of the admonition.

Yeah, the clever dorm mate Akka ends up hooking up with.

I honestly didn't remember this scene at all from when I read WLW when it came out. So yes, a very weak section.

Fayanal, IMO, is actually a terrible "men think with their dicks" stereotype. If we're willing to use the world misandry as a descriptor divorced from any wider social commentary, I'd say it applies here.

[Curethan]

I don't think the Thousandfold Thought extends only so far as flinging the Ordeal at the consult.

----

For me, Psatma's sexual allure being couched as "soft earth, deeply plowed" is clear reference to Yatwer's role as the fertility goddess, the Earwan equivilent of Danu. She's not physically desirable in the same way as Esme or Serwe, or carnally dominating like the Inchoroi.

It also plays into the idea of divine right and the land's bounty being connected to the ruler ala King Arthur or the Pharoahs. Fanayal's authority is dependent on his lineage from Fane and he is on a mission to revive the lands of men.

Psatma isn't portrayed as nubile seductress, she is personifying meanings that Fanayal violently yearns to possess. Mysticism, fertility and strength.

[Rhom]

While early on in my reread of TWP, this struck me: Why does Akka have to teach Kellhus algebra? While certainly the Dunyain weren't around for Ajencis, they had to have an original understanding of algebra and higher math didn't they? Why wouldn't they have learned that as part of their training?

I am kind of puzzled about where Fanayal fits in to the remaining story, and it harkens back to the Meppa mystery for me. I've been a broken record on this, but I remain convinced that Meppa has to be significant in some way, but it also feels like if he is then so must also likely be Fanayal, but the latter is harder to figure out.

Agreed. They have really just kind of stood around and not really done anything of import. Of course, maybe that's my own prejudices coming out that I don't consider toppling the empire as "important." I just don't feel that they have added anything to the story yet and they feel too significant to have no role from here. :dunno:

[Castel]

While early on in my reread of TWP, this struck me: Why does Akka have to teach Kellhus algebra? While certainly the Dunyain weren't around for Ajencis, they had to have an original understanding of algebra and higher math didn't they? Why wouldn't they have learned that as part of their training?

Does Kellhus say that he needs Akka in his POV or was this seen from Akka's perspective?

Because Dunyain trolls are trollish.