R+L=J v.84

[Ellfoy]

snip

I think it help to read the books after you have watched the show. You don't lose your time trying to remember all the characters, their motivations... and your brain can concentrate on more details. Plus, you take your time to read because you already know what's going to happen.

My route was probably slightly different than most. Several friends at work had been recommending the books for many years to me. However, I had/have a long standing reluctance to read an unfinished book series. When HBO started the TV adaptation, one of them recommended that I should watch it, and read the books if I liked the show - since grrm was almost finished with the series. I watched the second or third episode of season 1 - liked it, and started reading the books.

After I had finished reading agot, I mentioned to one of them that I had finish agot, and that I liked the book. She asked if I had figured out who the hidden princess was .... I replied hidden princess?? she said .. it's a fantasy, there are always hidden "princes, princesses, kings and queens, baby swaps too." Knowing her, I was certain that there was a baby swap to be found in agot.. I spent some time trying to figure out the baby swap while reading the next book. I stumbled upon the web site "Tower of the Hand" - one headline was "Who are Jon's parents." - Parents plural - was about all I needed to realize that Jon was the hidden prince,,, connecting the remaining dots was not hard.

Are you still friends now ? :cool4: :leaving:

Thank you all for your answers ! :grouphug:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

FrozenFire3, I name you a liar (or a terrifyingly clever person :bowdown: )

Definitely the latter :D

And btw FF3, that's an excellent rebuttal to certain claims in the last thread that RLJ has not been foreshadowed in the show ;)

I figured it out on reread, no aha moment... just followed the breadcrumbs. None of my friends bought it so I turned to the internet. Three years later here I am among friends who definitely "buy it" :)

[LadyLiz]

There's another thing that came to mind on my first read: Bran's chapter after Ned's beheading, he tells Osha that he dreamed of Ned in the crypts and that the dream was disturbing and that Ned mentioned something about Jon. They go into the crypts, and when they reach Lyanna's statue of all of them, Osha asks if this is where he saw his father, and Bran says yes.

Ned told Bran something about Jon right at the foot of Lyanna's statue. I wonder what that might be...

I completely forgot that Bran said that it was about Jon. Wow, good spot.

[Ygrain]

I'm one of the newest forum members. I watched and enjoyed 3 full seasons of the show before picking up AGoT (judge away), and by the end of AGoT, I had a strong hunch. Writers don't make random bastards viewpoint characters unless there's a good reason. And then I feel that Ned's POV toward the end all but give it away.

A spot-on. I could only add, "and they don't give them mysterious mothers unless it is IMPORTANT".

I wasn't really interested in reading ASoIaF because I like the liberal use of magic, myth, and romance. I love Tolkien as much as GRRM is critical of him... the Silmarillion is one of my favorite books, what I consider "comfort reading." But the rich backstories of ASoIaF are what drew me in, starting with AGoT. The world building is some of the most incredible I've read, and I actually like the intertwined courtly intrigue of the current young generation's parents (not just R and L, but also Starks + Barristan + Ashara, Tully girls + Petyr Baelish, etc.).

It seems we have the same tastes :-)

[Disputatious]

With Jon's whole storyline and the path it will take in the future this might not be true... but you almost wonder if he even is that preoccupied by it anymore. Pre-wall Jon Snow wanted to know but I think he kind of stopped thinking about his mom when he met Ygritte. Don't get me wrong I'm sure he will still be interested in knowing but he doesn't seem to care as much anymore...

I would say that he does not care as much, if that is indeed so, because with Lord Eddard gone, he assumes that he will never learn. Further he now has / had substantial responsibilities. That tends to distract one from worrying about questions that it appears one cannot answer anyway.

I am a bit surprised that he did not ask Melisandre to look in her flames, but he does not trust her and might assume that he would only get an answer in which he could repose no confidence.

Then after Tyrion and Ser Barristan learn of the HOTU vision of a blue rose in a wall of ice, use what they know about Jon and the Harrenhall tourney to figure out the meaning of said vision, and explain this to Dany, it will suddenly become a matter of great importance to Jon as he has to weigh oath - breaking against the adamant insistence by a fair young woman with a dragon to offer that he is Rhaegar's son and must marry her and become King of Westeros.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ETA: Howland will only tell Jon part of it, maybe that Lyanna was his mother.

But hopefully with the addition that Ned isn't his father.. otherwise Jon gets a completely wrong picture

[JonCon's Red Beard]

How I found out about RLJ?

I googled "who is Jon's mother".

As I had JUST read for the first time, with all the names and places around my head ... the first thing I asked myself was

"who the fuck Rhaegar Targaryen was???".

[Disputatious]

But hopefully with the addition that Ned isn't his father.. otherwise Jon gets a completely wrong picture

Not necessary: Jon would reject immediately the idea that Eddard would father a child on his own sister.

[FrozenFire3]

Shame on you ! *joking* It made me laugh actually.

FrozenFire3, I name you a liar (or a terrifyingly clever person :bowdown: )

I have witnesses! :lol:

It's as Ygrain said. If you work with textual analysis on a daily basis, you get acquainted with certain narrative devices (at the end of the day, screenplay is a text) and more often than not you can safely guess where a certain plot or storyline is going. More training than cleverness, I'd say :dunce: ;)

ETA Thanx Lady G :blushing:

[Andrés Garcia]

There are clues and foreshadowing in the show as well. The most attentive viewers may even start to suspect. On the whole though it's all rather thin to be honest. I've talked to several fans of the show who barely remember who Rhaegar was. Lyanna is even more of a mystery at this point. If the show reveals who Jon's parents are the majority of viewers will probably think it's completely out of left field. I'm not sure how they're going to solve this. The House of the Undying was a missed opportunity.

[Pigeon Pie]

There are clues and foreshadowing in the show as well. The most attentive viewers may even start to suspect. On the whole though it's all rather thin to be honest. I've talked to several fans of the show who barely remember who Rhaegar was. Lyanna is even more of a mystery at this point. If the show reveals who Jon's parents are the majority of viewers will probably think it's completely out of left field. I'm not sure how they're going to solve this. The House of the Undying was a missed opportunity.

Agreed. Maybe they'll start giving more hints to R+L in the next season(s). Maybe Barristan and Cersei will talk about Rhae, and Meera will tell Bran about Lyanna after all. After all, last night's foreshadowing with Melisandre looking at Jon, with fire on the left side of his face and the winter and snow on the right... that was a good one.

[J. Stargaryen]

I watched the first season of the show, and even though I really liked it, I was extremely hesitant to start reading an unfinished book series. Especially one known for its delays. Waiting is the worst part.

So, a friend who knew about R+L=J casually brought up the issue of Jon's parentage. I encouraged him to spoil me since, well, the stuff I mentioned in the first paragraph. For regulars of this thread, my reaction was predictable. But then why doesn't he look like a Targaryen? Which I said in a tone that suggested: Ha, theory busted, genius. My friend assured me that there was an answer, even though he couldn't remember it just then. Right around this time my brain turned on, and I felt like certain bits of information began to fall into place if my friend wasn't the lying moron I had initially assumed he was.

For example, I recall saying to myself: Hey, I already think that R&L ran away together, despite Robert's claim of rape. And, you know, the book series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. Which might hint at Stark and Targaryen. And a couple of other bits like this that I've forgotten.

I only decided to read the books after finishing season two of the show. I had a difficult time getting through AGoT, since the book-to-screen adaptation was extremely faithful. It wasn't until I started rereading certain chapters later on that I realized just how incredible of a book it really is. (It's now far and away my favorite, fyi.) In fairness to me, GRRM's style probably took some getting used to. And it only started to sink in after reading the next book or two, as well as lots of great posts on this forum.

[MarinaC]

I've been a long time lurker around here, whenever I can I read all the posts on the R+L=J threads. But I never post mostly because you guys already said everything that I think about it! Well, this time I just found a passage between Tyrion and Jon that I don't remember seeing around here. I know, at this point we can't find anything really new and schocking anymore until a new book release, but I think it's pretty interesting anyway.

"What are you reading about?” he asked.

“Dragons,” Tyrion told him.
“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth. “So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him. “Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t…”

“No? Never?” Tyrion raised an eyebrow.

Well, the meaning of the last bolded part is that Tyrion is accusing Jon of also have dreamed of harming people who treated him badly for being a bastard. But the "I know your secret", the way Jon doesn't firmly deny it and all the buzz about dragon dreams in the series makes the second interpretation much more interesting: Tyrion is unknowingly recognizing Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also, the look Jon gave him is strange if it was meant to mean just what it seems: why Jon is fascinated by this confession about Tyrion's family? I don't believe he ever really thought of harming even Catelyn this way, so I bet the fascination comes from hearing about someone else who shares the same kind of dreams he has.

And to keep going with the how we found out about R+L=J subject: I discovered watching the first two episodes of the show, and I couldn't even differentiate between Robb, Jon and Theon at first haha I thought it was awfully strange that Ned made all that secret of who Jon's mother was, but it hit me when Ned and Robert were talking about Lyanna. Robert says "How many times do you think he [Rhaegar] raped your sister?" and I thought "If he really raped her that much she must have got pregnant, there are no condoms in Westeros afterall". Lyanna's mysterious death was also something that bugged me, so dying in childbirth explained it all. But where was the child? "Wait a minute, Jon doesn't have a mother. And Rhaegar and Lyanna's child would have his age and no mother as well... OH MY GOD JON IS THEIR SON, NOT NEDS!" I thought I had uncovered the biggest secret ever and then googled something like "Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents" and my moment of brilliance was taken away from me when I saw I wasn't the first one to get it :cool4:

[Yuki_no_JonI]

For me it was like it has to be important or else Ned would have told Jon... yet I had stucked with Robert's pov and as such I thought of the KG as gaolers... and Lyanna dying by one of them or a lethal wound when they saw they are about to lose...

then, after I finished the books and started looking more into it... the R+L=J was like the most natural answer to the enigma.

In the reread any clue was so clear... I'm pretty sure that's the true Jon's parentage....

[OnlyOne]

Howland Reed knows and certainly the three eyed raven. As soon as I read the bed of blood and the promise, I knew. I'm a woman and an RN. I knew. Ned is a tragically honorable man. I'm pretty certain evidence can be found in Lyannas crypt as well. She was probably married and Jon wouldn't be a bastard. In the crypts, I'm sure a certain harp is there and probable wedding attire-maybe the whole explanation.

[J. Stargaryen]

I've been a long time lurker around here, whenever I can I read all the posts on the R+L=J threads. But I never post mostly because you guys already said everything that I think about it! Well, this time I just found a passage between Tyrion and Jon that I don't remember seeing around here. I know, at this point we can't find anything really new and schocking anymore until a new book release, but I think it's pretty interesting anyway.

Well, the meaning of the last bolded part is that Tyrion is accusing Jon of also have dreamed of harming people who treated him badly for being a bastard. But the "I know your secret", the way Jon doesn't firmly deny it and all the buzz about dragon dreams in the series makes the second interpretation much more interesting: Tyrion is unknowingly recognizing Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also, the look Jon gave him is strange if it was meant to mean just what it seems: why Jon is fascinated by this confession about Tyrion's family? I don't believe he ever really thought of harming even Catelyn this way, so I bet the fascination comes from hearing about someone else who shares the same kind of dreams he has.

And to keep going with the how we found out about R+L=J subject: I discovered watching the first two episodes of the show, and I couldn't even differentiate between Robb, Jon and Theon at first haha I thought it was awfully strange that Ned made all that secret of who Jon's mother was, but it hit me when Ned and Robert were talking about Lyanna. Robert says "How many times do you think he [Rhaegar] raped your sister?" and I thought "If he really raped her that much she must have got pregnant, there are no condoms in Westeros afterall". Lyanna's mysterious death was also something that bugged me, so dying in childbirth explained it all. But where was the child? "Wait a minute, Jon doesn't have a mother. And Rhaegar and Lyanna's child would have his age and no mother as well... OH MY GOD JON IS THEIR SON, NOT NEDS!" I thought I had uncovered the biggest secret ever and then googled something like "Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents" and my moment of brilliance was taken away from me when I saw I wasn't the first one to get it :cool4:

Welcome back! :cheers:

We still reference your first post. For example, here and here. It was one of my favorites from the moment I read it. There is more in depth discussion about Rhaegar and rubies in the first link, if you're interested.

[OnlyOne]

Everyone keep posting. It's quite enjoyable to read even if it's a heavily discussed topic.

[MtnLion]

Can we start a "How did you figure it out R+L=J ?" tour ?

I watched the first two seasons before reading the books and I get spoiled Jon Snow 's parentage on the internet so I would never know if I could have figured it out on my own. It appeared really obvious when I read the books (especially in Ned's Pov), I don't think I could ever accept another explanation now.

Well I'm really curious to know how you figured R+L=J out. If I recall correctly, for Ygrain or MtnLion (sorry don't remember which one) it was in a Jaime Chapter about Kingsguard duty.

Precisely. I had always kept in mind the conversation at the tower of joy, being especially interested in what "vow" the Kingsguard were referring to. I believe that it was Feast, where Jaime describes getting his white cloak after swearing his vow "to protect and defend the king." Once you replace vow with protect and defend the king in the dialog, it is amazingly obvious what is being said.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I've been a long time lurker around here, whenever I can I read all the posts on the R+L=J threads. But I never post mostly because you guys already said everything that I think about it! Well, this time I just found a passage between Tyrion and Jon that I don't remember seeing around here. I know, at this point we can't find anything really new and schocking anymore until a new book release, but I think it's pretty interesting anyway.

Well, the meaning of the last bolded part is that Tyrion is accusing Jon of also have dreamed of harming people who treated him badly for being a bastard. But the "I know your secret", the way Jon doesn't firmly deny it and all the buzz about dragon dreams in the series makes the second interpretation much more interesting: Tyrion is unknowingly recognizing Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also, the look Jon gave him is strange if it was meant to mean just what it seems: why Jon is fascinated by this confession about Tyrion's family? I don't believe he ever really thought of harming even Catelyn this way, so I bet the fascination comes from hearing about someone else who shares the same kind of dreams he has.

Welcome back! :cheers:

As JS said, your original post about the rubies is still a favorite here, as you can see in the threads linked. :)

Now this catch, with the alternate interpretation of the bolded parts of the passage you quoted is really great! In story, I can almost feel Jon's horror that someone knows his secret, not that he wants to harm people, but that he dreams about dragons. Further I can imagine GRRM chuckling to himself as he wrote this passage, with its sneaky little hint to Jon's identity.

[MtnLion]

I am pretty sure that GRRM confirmed that we would see Howland Reed at some point. While the obvious and awesome choice would be for him to meet with Jon it is also possible that he could come across another major character (ideally a Stark or Stark ally) and explain Jon's heritage. I definitely want Catelyn to find out at some point so she knows Ned didn't betray her.

Offhand, I believe that words GRRM used was, "that we may eventually hear from Howland Reed." Not quite the same as meeting him. ;)