Connecting the 3 Dragon Heads - Examining Unique Similarities

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree with this theory. As I am sure you know, you are not the first person to suggest that Tyrion is the son of Aerys (see http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75441-a-j-t/). I came to a similar conclusion that Tyrion is likely the son of Aerys for other reasons as well (see ).

The main complaints against the theory seem to be that one hidden Targ (Jon) is enough and that the literary significance of the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion would be ruined if Tyrion is not really Tywin's son. But those arguments do not overcome the need for three heroes to lead the final battle. These three heroes must be main characters--so Aegon or any other random person with Targ blood does not work. The three heroes really need to have Targaryen blood because that is what the three-headed dragon prophesy is about. There really is no other good candidate other than Tyrion. I know it is a minority position, but the evidence that Tyrion is really a Targ is much stronger than the opponents of the theory want to admit.

[The Mother of The Others]

heroes who come from 3 different family factions:

Rhaella Targaryen’s children - Daenerys, Rhaegar, Viserys

Rhaegar Targaryen’s children - Jon, Aegon, Rhaenys

Joanna Lannister’s children - Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei

Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys are the 3 heads of the dragon, and will be the key players in the "war for the dawn".

could there be a double header?

An initial trial run with the then-current frontrunners (Aegon, Tyrion, Daenerys),

then a game of musical chairs ensues (betrayals, dragondancing, hyjinx),

during which the 3-Heads undergo a lineup shift to settle on their final arrangement (Jon, Jaime, Podrick Targaryen)

[pobeb]

". . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . ."

to bed - This is referring to Dany riding her Silver to bed with Drogo

to dread - This is referring to the moment when Tyrion mounts his horse, rouses the fleeing men of King's Landing, and rides forth into a hellish pit of fear and death (the battle of the blackwater)

to love - This is referring to Jon "mounting" (warging) Ghost to receive Catelyn's love (last kiss) and thus be resurrected (as explained in this post)

Are they connected outside of just being mounts? I think so:

- Each hero climbs their mount with a certain fear (Dany was literally crying, Tyrion was so afraid he was in disbelief, and I can't imagine Jon's mind isn't racing with fear and confusion as he wargs Ghost following his assassination)

- Each mount leads our heroes into another form of character development (The Dothraki make Dany bold, Tyrion gains his battle courage, Jon would gain his body back)

- Each mount is now dead or may soon die (Barristan is about to lead Silver into battle for Mereen, Tyrion slit his mounts throat, and Ghost may also need to be sacrificed in order to revive Jon)

- Each mount has led or will lead to a loss (Daenerys rides to bed, then loses her child. Tyrion rides into dread, and loses his nose. Jon rides back to his body, and may lose Ghost)

[espresso]

Jon,Catelyn, and love are not three words I'd put together.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I don't feel as Jon is going to be revived via a Red God's Kiss. We have had two people who have been revived this way and they are shown as changed and unsettling.

I tend to believe that Jon will mirror Bran's journey, be in a coma in an Ice Cell in the Wall and his third eye will be awakened. He will then communicate with Bran/ Bryndan Rivers and learn the truth of his heritage.

[pobeb]

Jon,Catelyn, and love are not three words I'd put together.

Which is why, as I explained, it isn't a light "for love", but rather "to love".

It's all coming together. The fact that Catelyn holds Robb's crown while reflecting (indicating her thinking of succession). The fact that Robb's will (naming Jon king) was sent to Greywatch (home of Howland Reed) with a party that has remained conveniently absent since they departed. The fact that Catelyn is alive and sore for redemption. The fact that the show-runners dropped hints harder than they've dropped their attempt at staying true to the story. The fact that there's a a fire traveling from body to body, and has been theorized to end with Jon - which completes the triplet. The fact that there have been 3 red-headed women with significant impacts on Jon's story. And finally, the idea that Catelyn's relationship with Jon will finally come full circle.

[Legendary]

I also have to note that the "three fires... three mounts... three treasons" foretelling was matched with images. Dany's three mounts were her silver in the grass sea, a smiling corpse aboard a ship, and a blue rose on the wall. They seem to be Drogo, a second individual (I think Victarion but people argue all sorts of things), and Jon. Likewise, the three fires are matched with a blue-eyed king with a flaming sword and no shadow (Stannis? Jon again?), a cloth dragon in a cheering crowd (fAegon?), and a stone beast leaping from a tower (Euron? Connington? Tyrion?); and the three treasons are matched with MMD, Viserys, and Rhaegar (whispering Lyanna's name) dying. While I don't know what each image means, I am confident that the 3 sets of three were prophecies meant for Dany and Dany alone, and that Jon and Tyrion won't complete the prophecies for her except in that Jon is definitely the blue rose and Tyrion MIGHT be the stone beast.

I also don't agree with A+J=T, but on the whole I do think that there are a lot of deliberate parallels between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. Another that stands out to me is that all three of them have made a first attempt at leadership (LC, Hand, Meereen), making unpopular decisions that were for the good of their demesne and risking assassination attempts as a result. One hopes that their second go-arounds will work a little better.

[Federico]

Well constructed argument by OP.

I think it stronger without the Aerys thread. I was going to mention GRRM's statement that the three heads don't all have to be Targs.

On the betrayals: someone betrays Jon out of love. Just a couple stray thoughts that loosely fit:

- Ned betrayed Jon (his claim to throne; of course, Jon wouldn't feel this way now, but...) out of love for Jon (and Lyanna)

- Sam betrayed Jon (keeping Bran's going North of the Wall secret) out of Love for Jon (Jon might fore sake his NW oath to seek and protect Bran)

I'm not sure this helps the triplet patterns and prophecy stuff, but...

Cheers

Fed

[pobeb]

I also have to note that the "three fires... three mounts... three treasons" foretelling was matched with images. Dany's three mounts were her silver in the grass sea, a smiling corpse aboard a ship, and a blue rose on the wall. They seem to be Drogo, a second individual (I think Victarion but people argue all sorts of things), and Jon. Likewise, the three fires are matched with a blue-eyed king with a flaming sword and no shadow (Stannis? Jon again?), a cloth dragon in a cheering crowd (fAegon?), and a stone beast leaping from a tower (Euron? Connington? Tyrion?); and the three treasons are matched with MMD, Viserys, and Rhaegar (whispering Lyanna's name) dying. While I don't know what each image means, I am confident that the 3 sets of three were prophecies meant for Dany and Dany alone, and that Jon and Tyrion won't complete the prophecies for her except in that Jon is definitely the blue rose and Tyrion MIGHT be the stone beast.

I also don't agree with A+J=T, but on the whole I do think that there are a lot of deliberate parallels between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. Another that stands out to me is that all three of them have made a first attempt at leadership (LC, Hand, Meereen), making unpopular decisions that were for the good of their demesne and risking assassination attempts as a result. One hopes that their second go-arounds will work a little better.

This is an interesting point which I was waiting for someone to bring up: The visions shown to Dany after she asks for some clarification.

While, I too think that these visions apply solely to Dany, I don't think they apply over all 3 categories of the aforementioned triplet.

I think her fire for life is encompassed by the "daughter of death" triplet - each of the 3 visions shows her a different dead dragon - her fire brings 3 dragons back to life

I think the mount to bed is encompassed by the "bride of fire" triplet - each mount is taking her to her metaphorical "bed" as a "bride" - Silver to Drogo, Iron Victory to Euron, Drogon to Jon)

I think the treason for blood is encompassed by the "slayer of lies" triplet - each vision represents someone who fits the treason of blood - Stannis killed Renly (no shadow), fAegon is claiming to have the blood of the dragon (cloth dragon), and J Cunninton's blood is betraying him and turning to greyscale (stone beast breathing shadow fire)

[Kienn]

Joanna's kids

Rhaegar's kids

Rhaella's kids

Third kid of each

Sorry OP, I don't think this story is written entirely around being an homage to Tolkien. As much as you want it to be, it's not.

[pobeb]

Joanna's kids

Rhaegar's kids

Rhaella's kids

Third kid of each

Sorry OP, I don't think this story is written entirely around being an homage to Tolkien. As much as you want it to be, it's not.

That isn't my argument at all, but that is a pretty cool observation!

[Legendary]

This is an interesting point which I was waiting for someone to bring up: The visions shown to Dany after she asks for some clarification.

While, I too think that these visions apply solely to Dany, I don't think they apply over all 3 categories of the aforementioned triplet.

I think her fire for life is encompassed by the "daughter of death" triplet - each of the 3 visions shows her a different dead dragon - her fire brings 3 dragons back to life

I think the mount to bed is encompassed by the "bride of fire" triplet - each mount is taking her to her metaphorical "bed" as a "bride" - Silver to Drogo, Iron Victory to Euron, Drogon to Jon)

I think the treason for blood is encompassed by the "slayer of lies" triplet - each vision represents someone who fits the treason of blood - Stannis killed Renly (no shadow), fAegon is claiming to have the blood of the dragon (cloth dragon), and J Cunninton's blood is betraying him and turning to greyscale (stone beast breathing shadow fire)

That doesn't fit the grammar though. "Three mounts you must ride, one to bed, and one to dread, and one to love." Also, if she gets three mounts for one verb, she should get three fires for one verb (all for life), and three treasons, again all for one verb, and the boys should have sets of three as well.

[TheOldWolf]

I submit that the “dragon” represents the 3 different heroes of this story; heroes who come from 3 different family factions:

Rhaella Targaryen’s children - Daenerys, Rhaegar, Viserys

Rhaegar Targaryen’s children - Jon, Aegon, Rhaenys

Joanna Lannister’s children - Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei

You’ll notice I’ve bolded 3 names; one from each group. These 3 heroes represent the 3 heads of the dragon. Are they like one another? Certainly:

- Each hero slew their mother in childbirth

- Each hero is a 3rd child

- Each hero is of the sibling dynamic: Male/Male/Female (a dynamic which is present in their own connection: Jon/Tyrion/Daenerys)

- Each hero has lived the life of an outcast (a bastard, a dwarf, and a vigilante)

- Each hero has fought to protect the innocent (Daenerys - the slaves, Tyrion - the people of King's Landing, Jon - the entire realm of man)

- Each hero has slain a villain with their preferred weapon of choice (Daenerys slays Kraznys with Drogon, Tyrion slays Tywin with a crossbow, Jon slays Janos with Longclaw)

- The first 3 chapters of A Dance with Dragons is of Tyrion, Daenerys, and Jon

- Each hero's siblings are dead or soon to die (admittedly, my weakest connection)

- Each hero has had a lover who has died (Drogo, Ygritte, Shae) due to a betrayl

This next similarity is going to need some explaining:

- Each hero is a descendent of Aerys

I imagine this is being met by nods from some and groans from many others. Daenerys is Aerys’ child, surely. Jon’s lineage… is debatable, but the text and fanbase heavily favor him as Rhaegar’s son. Tyrion’s father, on the other hand, is much more difficult to believe as being Aerys. What evidence is there to suggest he’s anything less than a full blooded Lannister?

Let’s examine some of the source material in this regard:

I, like many others, dismissed this line on my first read through; chalking it up to no more than Tywin’s disdain for Tyrion, and how the Imp has shamed House Lannister (as is the context of their conversation). But, on closer examination, “prove” becomes the stand-out word in this sentence. When Tywin says “prove”, it doesn’t just play on his hatred for Tyrion, it connotes doubt. Tywin has doubts that Tyrion is his. But, why wouldn’t Tywin be absolutely certain? If Tywin loved Joanna, and she certainly doesn’t seem a whore, why doubt? Well:

Mind you, I don’t believe the “liberties” suggest he claimed first night. I think Aerys’ antics during the bedding were simply meant to highlight Aerys’ lust for Joanna. So, given that Joanna was not a whore, that Aerys was a mad rapist who lusted for her, and Tywin’s paternity doubts, one can conclude that Aerys most likely raped Joanna at some point; Tyrion being their bastard.

Indeed.

Outside the implications of his father being a (dragon) Targaryen, Tyrion also has multiple other connections to dragons:

Several times throughout the series dragons, or their presence, are associated with big shadows.

A sign from the old gods, in the form of a white cyvasse dragon.

Here we see Tyrion marveling at the wildfire he had set off in the Blackwater. He then wonders if Aegon (another dragon) felt the same way he did.

These next series of quotes and explanations detail how Tyrion survived falling in and swallowing part of the Rhoyne:

Tyrion opens his mouth, and swallows death (the Rhoyne)

Tyrion didn’t just come in contact with the river, he swallowed a good portion of it. Shortly after, we’re shown the potency of the Rhoyne's greyscale infested waters once we see how quickly it has affected Jon Cunnington:

So, how does Tyrion survive swallowing the waters of the Rhoyne when Griff was afflicted to easily?

Well:

I don’t believe it’s coincidence that Tyrion so specifically swallows a form of liquid death, survives, and reflects on this specific passage in Septon Barth’s writings. Tyrion doesn’t contract greyscale because he is a dragon; death comes out of his mouth, not the other way around.

Now that I’ve established why I think Tyrion is Aerys’ descendent, let me move on to my last couple connections between our 3 heroes:

- Each hero represents a part of each triplet given to Daenerys by the Undying:

I explain each of these in posts further down the thread:

Three fire must you light

Three mounts must you ride

Three treasons will you know

And last, but not least:

- They each represent the 3 things used to temper Lightbringer’s blade:

- The water used first to temper lightbringer represents the birth of Dany, born in the midst of a storm.

- The lion used to temper lightbringer represents the birth of Tyrion, born in the home of the lions - Casterly Rock.

- The love of Nissa Nissa used to temper lightbringer represents Jon, born of love in the Tower of Joy.

Jon, Tyrion, and Daenerys are the 3 heads of the dragon, and will be the key players in the "war for the dawn".

The last part about how each of their births represents the forging of Lightbringer was what sold it for me. You ser, are brilliant

[pobeb]

That doesn't fit the grammar though. "Three mounts you must ride, one to bed, and one to dread, and one to love." Also, if she gets three mounts for one verb, she should get three fires for one verb (all for life), and three treasons, again all for one verb, and the boys should have sets of three as well.

Ah, I see where we're confusing each other. Allow me to clarify: I don't think the Undying are only addressing Dany in this triplet, but rather that the "you" in the "three ___ you must ___" addresses the 3 heads of the dragon, and their duties are applied in the order of: Dany / Tyrion / Jon. As you'll notice, the triplet is a response to Dany, and begins with "three heads has the dragon". This is important because if we accept that Dany is one of those heads, it means she's part of the same "dragon" as the other 2 heads - Tyrion and Jon. I can see how you interpreted the triplet as being directed only to Dany, but I hope that now you can also see that the use of "you" can also be directed towards a singular being which consists of 3 parts (heads). As Maester Aemon confessed to Sam:

"The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame."

However, the visions sent to Dany following the prior triplets are defintely only intended for Dany; which is why you've noticed that Jon and Tyrion don't apply and are absent in that section. They don't have a set of three verbs to a noun because even though the prophecy is intended for them all, the visions are explanations meant only for Dany. This, I think, is the most important part of assessing who the Undying are addressing - figuring out what they're addressing. When Dany asked "Three?" she was asking what "child of three" meant, and so the Undying explain to her just that: there are 3 heads of the dragon, and that dragon has 3 different sets of 3 things to fulfill. But when Dany asks, “Help me. Show me.” she's asking for them to show her, not the asexual dragon, and thus not Tyrion or Jon.

And if you misunderstood the part where I explained how each vision applies to her particular part of the prophetic triplet, I hope this makes it more clear:

Her "fire for life" is explained in the "daughter of death" vision: she sees 3 dead dragons - Viserys, Rhaego, Rhaegar - she lights a fire to give life to 3 new dragons: Viserion, Drogon, Rhaegal

Her "mount to bed" is explained in the "bride of fire" vision: each vision is implying that "mount" suggests traveling for the "bride" to her groom (bed):

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

- to her groom (bed), Drogo

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

- to her groom (bed), Euron

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

- to her groom (bed), Jon

Her "treason she'll know for blood" is explained in her "slayer of lies" vision: Each vision suggests a treason of blood covered up by lies she must end (slay).

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

- This is of Stannis after betraying his own "blood" and keeping the truth of it hidden, thus perpetuating a lie

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

- This is fAegon betraying his own "blood" and claiming the throne, even though he's secretly not Aegon, thus perpetuating a lie

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

- This represent Jon Connington, being a stone (greyscale) beast (griffon), and breathing (spreading) shadow fire (Blackfyre). He doesn't just keep his greyscale hidden (essentially lying about it), he's supporting a lie in fAegon

I don't connect Tyrion and Jon to 3 different parts of their 3 different ___ to ___ because there aren't 3 sets of visions to accompany each, as there is with Dany. If there were, I would :)

[Legendary]

Ah, I see where we're confusing each other. Allow me to clarify: I don't think the Undying are only addressing Dany in this triplet, but rather that the "you" in the "three ___ you must ___" addresses the 3 heads of the dragon, and their duties are applied in the order of: Dany / Tyrion / Jon. As you'll notice, the triplet is a response to Dany, and begins with "three heads has the dragon". This is important because if we accept that Dany is one of those heads, it means she's part of the same "dragon" as the other 2 heads - Tyrion and Jon. I can see how you interpreted the triplet as being directed only to Dany, but I hope that now you can also see that the use of "you" can also be directed towards a being which consists of 3 parts (heads). As Maester Aemon confessed to Sam:

However, the visions sent to Dany following the prior triplets are defintely only intended for Dany; which is why you've noticed that Jon and Tyrion don't apply and aren't included in that section. They don't have a set of three verbs to a noun because even though the prophecy is intended for them all, the visions are explanations meant only for Dany. But, those visions only serve to connect to her part of the triplet, not the triplet overall.

So why does she have three mounts, three fires, and three treasons in her vision then?

EDIT: To be clear, what I mean here is, you've acknowledged she has three mounts (silver, boat, dragon). So how does that fit with "three mounts you [all] must ride"? It should be five, by that count.

[Nozlym]

i like it

[IceFire125]

wow! especially the forging of Lightbringer!

[pobeb]

So why does she have three mounts, three fires, and three treasons in her vision then?

EDIT: To be clear, what I mean here is, you've acknowledged she has three mounts (silver, boat, dragon). So how does that fit with "three mounts you [all] must ride"? It should be five, by that count.

I was editing when you responded. There's a lot more I added which addresses your questions.

[JonSnow4President]

Just to expand on Tyrion being Targaryen because of his lack of grayscale despite being in the infected waters and touching the infected man, I was just reading this.

Daenerys, p 520

"Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and afraid, but never sick."

I personally don't buy that Tyrion will be the head of a dragon, but that line would support your argument that he is Targaryen.

[Legendary]

I was editing when you responded. There's a lot more I added which addresses your questions.

It doesn't work though. "Three mounts you must ride," not "Three times you must mount." And Dany is then shown three mounts. Same with the treasons. "Three treasons you will know," and whether you count them as MMD/Viserys/Jon or Stannis/Aegon/JonCon, she still knows three separate treasons. Not one.