Feminism - Frightbats Galore!

[Shryke]

Well "real" sports tend to segregate because of the physical differences between the two genders so while that's still kind of stupid there is at least some logic to it. But this is just...nonsensical. I don't even understand why they're trying to fit in with the "real" sports - it's quite clearly the old media that is scared of the new media and wants to adapt.

Huh? This has nothing to do with old media being scared of anything.

They want to fit in with normal sports because that's a good way to get respectability. Chess was trying to do the same thing and ended up with ridiculous shit like having to drug test chess players. Because sporting competitions have alot of strict standards related to athletic competition and being labelled a sport of any sort can often make you subject to them.

It's perfectly plausible that there's some rule that says they have to segregate their competitions by sex to meet some standard. It's just not clear that this is what's happening here because they are really unclear on what these standards are and if they are correct.

[protar]

Huh? This has nothing to do with old media being scared of anything.

They want to fit in with normal sports because that's a good way to get respectability. Chess was trying to do the same thing and ended up with ridiculous shit like having to drug test chess players. Because sporting competitions have alot of strict standards related to athletic competition and being labelled a sport of any sort can often make you subject to them.

It's perfectly plausible that there's some rule that says they have to segregate their competitions by sex to meet some standard. It's just not clear that this is what's happening here because they are really unclear on what these standards are and if they are correct.

Well I just meant that usually it's the old businesses and media which are trying to adapt to the internet age and often do stupid things in the process. Here it's kind of reversed which is odd. But that's a whole different topic that doesn't have anything to do with feminism. It was simply an offhanded comment.

So far as I'm aware there is no rule that sports must segregate by gender, it's just a lot do because of the physical differences between men and women. Obviously that's a non-factor here. Of course that tendency is rather silly in and of itself if you ask me: On average men are physically stronger than women but there are plenty of people who deviate from that average.

[Shryke]

Well I just meant that usually it's the old businesses and media which are trying to adapt to the internet age and often do stupid things in the process. Here it's kind of reversed which is odd. But that's a whole different topic that doesn't have anything to do with feminism. It was simply an offhanded comment.

So far as I'm aware there is no rule that sports must segregate by gender, it's just a lot do because of the physical differences between men and women. Obviously that's a non-factor here. Of course that tendency is rather silly in and of itself if you ask me: On average men are physically stronger than women but there are plenty of people who deviate from that average.

There aren't enough though and barely any that would match the best of the best. Because that's most of what you are dealing with in these competitions.

Look at things like Olympic records. If you don't segregate by sex, women likely just disappear from most of the competitions.

[Castel]

So...what happens if you don't qualify as a "true" sport to the unnamed guardians? Less advertising? No access to venues? Because no one in the article elaborates on why this would so occupy IeSF (or the Chess federation). The segregation of the Hearthstone event seems like something that's rolling downhill but I'm not sure why it exists in the first place.

Of course that tendency is rather silly in and of itself if you ask me: On average men are physically stronger than women but there are plenty of people who deviate from that average.

I assume that part of it is just historical but this creates a problem no?

I remember reading about how football (the true spot) was biased towards boys that were as close to the cut-off age for the year as possible since they were the most developed. In that case toor I don't doubt that there are plenty of outliers. It depends on the sport but if, the training starts very young, and you integrate the sports the trainers will just pick the most convenient people.

And doesn't it balance out anyway? On average men are stronger. And if you don't assume an incredible advantage on the side of anyone one team what makes you think that that fact won't matter even in sports after everyone gets similar (not guaranteed) training? It seems as if the female outliers would make the cut. None of this seems better than just segregating the leagues.

[protar]

There aren't enough though and barely any that would match the best of the best. Because that's most of what you are dealing with in these competitions.

Look at things like Olympic records. If you don't segregate by sex, women likely just disappear from most of the competitions.

They could still segregate, just by physical capabilities rather than gender. In most cases this would result in exactly the same system, but those outliers would be in a bracket more suited to them.

[Castel]

They could still segregate, just by physical capabilities rather than gender. In most cases this would result in exactly the same system, but those outliers would be in a bracket more suited to them.

How do you segregate something like football (or any of the other team sports) by physical capabilities without permanently messing with the structure of the game?

[Shryke]

So...what happens if you don't qualify as a "true" sport to the unnamed guardians? Less advertising? No access to venues? Because no one in the article elaborates on why this would so occupy IeSF (or the Chess federation). The segregation of the Hearthstone event seems like something that's rolling downhill but I'm not sure why it exists in the first place.

In the case of Chess, they were trying to get in to the Olympics.

I assume it's mostly about respectability, which translates into reach and thus money.

eSports is trying to make a push into a non-niche thing.

[KiDisaster]

In the case of Chess, they were trying to get in to the Olympics.

I assume it's mostly about respectability, which translates into reach and thus money.

eSports is trying to make a push into a non-niche thing.

It's actually a similar issue with this tournament in Finland. I was just reading a bit more about it on Reddit. Normally the organization that runs this tournament does open their events to men and women, but apparently the top 4 players in this specific event qualify for a larger event in Korea. The Korean tournament does not allow female players, so therefore the qualifiers have to be male only as well.

Doesn't make it any better, and the Finnish organization sure as hell aren't blameless for knowingly partnering with a Korean organization that doesn't allow female players, but it makes much more sense than "real sports don't let women play" which is the explanation they gave before.

[Seli]

I tried to look into another game/sport, contract bridge, since apparently the Dutch Women's team just became European champions. And there it seems while the women have their own tournaments/teams there is no male equivalent, the other main class is mixed gender.

[Gneisenau]

I feel like segregation is too nice of a word. In 2014 we had the first Women's ski jumping event at the Olympics.

[Shryke]

I can assure you, segregation is not in any way a nice word.

[brook]

Is equestrian considered a real sport? It's in the Olympics and everything.

[emberling]

Sorry for the link and run, I was in a bit of a rush at the time.

I don't follow esports myself but I do watch a good bit of competitive M:tG, which is in a similar spot, growing rapidly and trying to push itself as serious business - though it's not likely to ever catch on to the extent that video games have because it's really opaque to casual watchers. They don't have any kind of league segregation and as you'd expect from something so nerdy it is ridiculously male dominated - probably less than one percent female in average tournaments and only three or four female players in the world at the top level of competition. Just the other weekend a woman got second place in a Grand Prix (highest level tournament that is open to anyone); only one other has ever finished so high at that level.

What I find really interesting about all this is how the coverage handles it: complete silence. For whatever reason - orders from above, mutual agreement, whatever - they studiously avoid ever referring to the elephant in the room and just act as if a woman on the stage is an entirely unremarkable occurrence. They will go on for ages about players' unusual backgrounds if they have them, or how so-and-so represents the cream of an emergent Latvian Magic community or whatever, but women as a group are just invisible.

It's a strange kind of quasi-respectful erasure. I can't be entirely happy with it, because it is erasure, but when it is discussed (in twitch chat, etc) it's startling how relatively supportive the discussion is. Considering that it's like a 99% male community, at least. You see the usual bullshit from geekbros, but you also see support in relatively equal measure. In other similar-demographic communities it seems like the geekbros drown out all dissent.

[Galactus]

Hmmm, I wonder if you could put some kind of pressure on Blizzard in this case? They own the games they play after all, and might not want to be associated with segregation.

[Kalbear]

My understanding for the segregation was to encourage women to actually play - because otherwise the environment is toxic as hell to women and they've not been able to ban everyone who is bad, because, well, that'd basically be everyone.

[LongRider]

Is equestrian considered a real sport? It's in the Olympics and everything.

Good grief YES! Women and men compete equally and women do quite well. Rodeo is the only sport with horses that has separate events for women; barrel racing and goat tying. However, barrel racing events not associated with rodeo are open to all.

There are many fine women equestrians across all equine disciplines who are very competitive and don't give a care if it's a man or a woman they're competing against.

Even the United Arab Emirates has women riders in competition with men in some events. The women are royalty, but hey, it's a start.

[karaddin]

I was going to bring up SC2 and Scarlett but that's already been taken care of thanks! Of all games to go down this route, Hearthstone seems particularly absurd.

Just read this piece by another of the feminists I follow on twitter that I found quite affecting. It's on the ways that visibility and success in tech as a woman/minority just leads to an ever increasing amount of abuse, and that this visibility is itself used as a tool for further abuse. This comes after a week or so of several of the women I follow basically hitting breaking point and flaming out, out of emotional energy and strength to keep fighting the institutional sexism and misogynistic abuse they face constantly online.

Samantha Allen had a fairly uncontroversial piece on polygon saying video games could lift their effort on titles, which is a criticism sure but hardly a hostile one, and had anti trans attacks in response in the comments. Doesn't seem to matter what it is, just speaking as a woman or especially trans woman, on gaming is a crime worthy of abuse. Can't link to that one as moderator dealt with them at least.

[emberling]

Aaaand there it is. Women now allowed to compete in IeSF main divisions. The female-only divisions (which were in only two games) will remain so, and the formerly male-only divisions with broader game selection will become open to all.

It's nice to see complaining on the internet get results. And fucking fast, too.

[Arkhangel]

Is equestrian considered a real sport? It's in the Olympics and everything.

I'm constantly amazed that we live in a world in which chess and esport* are accepted as 'real' sports and yet people have doubts about whether an activity that involves coordinating yourself and a half ton prey animal with a mind of its own to, for example, hurl the both of you 6ft+ into the air at high speed is really a sport. Not having a go at you, Brook, I've just heard this too many times and it never ceases to baffle me.

* Which I'd never heard of before this thread, but I assume is basically playing very competitive video games where the worst thing that could happen is you might strain your wrist.

[brook]

For the record that was NOT a serious question.

The question had been asked if esports had to segregate by gender in order to be considered a 'real' sport. My point was that nobody (to my knowledge at least) questions the validity of equestrian despite men and women competing with and against each other.